Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

dude legit fuck drawing in senscale

what the fuck why is this so hard

[Korva]

dude legit fuck drawing in senscale

what the fuck why is this so hard

Make your people in gun bucket scale.

[Puzikas]

>not making your ships 1px=.1mm

Pleb

[Padnak]

>not making your ships 1px=.1mm

Pleb

We are a degenerative species

[Gallia-]

I toyed with 13 men split between two IFVs but that means five (!) maneuver elements per squad and I'm really not sure how smoothly that's gonna work out

You'll be fine
The sergeants will manage
All four of them

So you know how cuddly EDA-R is a real life boat like Spearhead? I mean the whole "having a substantial draught" thing.

What if you had a Spearhead type landing craft? Like a Big!Zubr?

Or is that what the Navy wants to do with EPF and ESD anyway? I'm trying to think of ways Galla might have a powerful amphibious capability since it is an island country and all that's coming to mind are outsized SES monstrosities on the order 3000 tons and catamaran LSTs. How do I escape disco age solutions to ancient problems?

Can you explain what you mean spearhead here? I don't understand. The term fails me.

If you need to land many troops much fast, really all I can think of besides VEH DEH VEH like airborne force and their Naval counterparts is just using hovercraft with amphibious transport docks and Landers.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65329749/Lineart/Spergscale/Infantry/Galla/Gallanhistorical.png

Hot.

The Russian Typhoon series are a little unusual in that they're in a bit of a twilight area between "full" wheeled AFVs like Boxer and "classic" MRAPs like Buffalo. But they seem to be designed mostly for convoy use, either convoy escort for the armed models or actual transport for the truck-frame models. They're not for battlefield transportation.

I could say much of the typhoon.

It's primarily military (>>>>>>) use is going to be just to be a lightweight mover and replace several other trucks in Russian service, and it's going to cary dudes around places outside high intensity areas.
They're biggest users under fire will be the MVD.
The BTR and upgrades will keep moving dudes where the fight is.

I think that the large squad concept is based on individual squads being able to act as an independent maneuver unit on a tactical scale, meaning being able to use their component fireteams to engage, suppress, surround and destroy the enemy. This is fundamentally different from the smaller squads that are carried in IFVs and smaller-capacity APCs in that those squads are intended to work with one another to do the same thing and are much less independent because of it.

Am I correct on this?

No
It's to allow them to absorb casualties and have redundancy so the platoons do not loose their weapons sets and dont render the company combat ineffective
It was at a time to allow the infantry to close to combat range and engage while the Machine gun team suppressed the formation, engage and then destroy them with the bayonet and grenade.

what problems could I encounter with using differing OAL cartridges but w/same case length in a semi-automatic firearm? e.g. different length shotgun shells, longer spitzer bullets vs shorter roundnosed bullets in a handgun cartridge etc.

Jams, double feeds, and headspacing issues.
Not an issue with straightwall cartridges as much. More an issue with modern self loaders.

also, given that my military uses 7.62x25mm as a handgun/PDW/SMG round and I like to have commonality with my police forces, would it make sense to have the same guns but with a different barrel that would fire what would essentially be a tapered 9x25mm Mauser (essentially a 7.62 Tok without bottlenecking) ? I think that should give less overpenetration against unarmored targets, better effects with JHP loads, and possibly better performance for subsonic (silenced) applications?

Yes

Just out of curiosity, what do some people here think would be important in an infantryman's assault pack for maintaining high tempo operations, if they were a soldier from an army in 200 BC or whatever?

Drink
Food
Shoes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spearhead ... _transport

This guy.

But with a bow ramp.

[Puzikas]

OH

That would probably work quite well, but the complications of keeping its speed and balance are obviously there.

Also consider many S-boats.

[Gallia-]

What's an S-Boat when I have AS565s or YAH-63s with Penguins/Hellfires?

Yeah also I didn't realize how bad the catamaran was for open seas. It just shits itself in sea state 4-5 which makes the idea of 40 knot super LST kind of bad. OTOH it would be good-ish for Frisia, Galla's inland neighbour, I guess.

Unless the catamaran hull has better seakeeping than an air cushion I suppose.

[Puzikas]

Any sea skimmer is dangerous in rough waters, which is why their deployment should be limited to inland or costal waters and should be deployed at distances of less than 100-200nmi.

Great for fast delivery to shore and patrols along calm seas and coasts, shit for a lot else.

[Gallia-]

How does the US Navy intend to use EPF in the "expeditionary" part of their role then?

Just plan their sailing around storms I guess? Like LCS?

Or should I have a really silly EPF tender?

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

make an even bigger birthing (yes birthing, not berthing) ship that carries like 3 of them

[Puzikas]

How does the US Navy intend to use EPF in the "expeditionary" part of their role then?

Just plan their sailing around storms I guess? Like LCS?

Or should I have a really silly EPF tender?

I would assume close range rapid deployment of forces from near bases, especially in the middle East, Mediterranean and Yellow/S. China Sea
Like it's ability to sprint between islands and back and forth between close by stations is enormously helpful for them. With the assistance of a LHD or LCS and in conjunction with other landing platforms you get maximum ((combined arms))

Expeditionary isn't always necessarily a long range deployment in that regard I guess.

They'll handle well enough and they're fast enough to get out of the way of bad storms, and a normal sea state is decent enough, but I bet a tender or employment in a LHD or something is possible.

[Gallia-]

Oh right I forgot America has/had this whole "global empire" thing *zing*.

Apparently the USN wants to be able to load them up at ESD/expeditionary transport docks which move at the speed of oil tanker I guess, but it's still not a twin ramp goofball LST. TBF I was just hoping that I'd be able to load them up like Algols and go trans-continental but that's probably unrealistic in all regards and more the realm of fast sealift ships anyway. ;_;

Bateaus are hard.

Frisia will be catamaranrake then. EDA-Rs and Spearhead-size LSTs.

Galla will be SESrike.

[Puzikas]

Algols are cool as fuck

So expensive the USN transfers them to reserve when they don't need them

33 knots carry all the equipment.

[Gallia-]

hi speed lo drag fluid penetrator :3

[Puzikas]

TFW Russia will never have that coolness

At least we get nuke ice breakers

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

DnalweN acilbupeR wrote:

what problems could I encounter with using differing OAL cartridges but w/same case length in a semi-automatic firearm? e.g. different length shotgun shells, longer spitzer bullets vs shorter roundnosed bullets in a handgun cartridge etc.

Jams, double feeds, and headspacing issues.
Not an issue with straightwall cartridges as much. More an issue with modern self loaders.

I see. How often would they happen? Or could I have a gun where you could have a "setting" for different OALs so the action behaves differently? Or could that be corrected with a magazine such as this: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/03/28/md-arms-double-stack-saiga-magazine-patent/?

Alternatively I could just have roundnosed bullets that are as long as the spitzers but I don't think that would be practical tbh.

[Puzikas]

How often would they happen? Or could I have a gun where you could have a "setting" for different OALs so the action behaves differently?

1. Impossible to tell.
2. Only recently as there been strides in allowing the same rifle, with the same magazine, to use cartridges with significantly different COALs without the change of major systems.

Or could that be corrected with a magazine such as this: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012 ... ne-patent/

There's literally nothing different about this than a normal magazine besides it's feeding 12ga shells?

Alternatively I could just have roundnosed bullets that are as long as the spitzers

Your round won't headspace.

[Norcourt]

Added Stripper Clip Notch, and K98 style front sights...

[EsToVnIa]

imperial measurement units reeeeeeeeeeeee

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

how many cubits long is the barrel

[Dostanuot Loj]

how many cubits long is the barrel

A few years ago I converted all my stuff I to ancient Sumerian measurments. Then I lost it all.

;_;

So many cubits gone. Gotta do it again now.

[Kazarogkai]

how many cubits long is the barrel

A few years ago I converted all my stuff I to ancient Sumerian measurments. Then I lost it all.

;_;

So many cubits gone. Gotta do it again now.

The Royal Gur Cube of Naram-Sin was freakin dope; So under appreciated and ahead of its time.

;_;

In part I used it as an inspiration for my own measurement system.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

How often would they happen? Or could I have a gun where you could have a "setting" for different OALs so the action behaves differently?

1. Impossible to tell.
2. Only recently as there been strides in allowing the same rifle, with the same magazine, to use cartridges with significantly different COALs without the change of major systems.

So this would imply physically swapping something out for something else or smth like that or simply pushing a button or pulling a level or something like that on the rifle?

Or could that be corrected with a magazine such as this: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012 ... ne-patent/

There's literally nothing different about this than a normal magazine besides it's feeding 12ga shells?

Well for one it's supposed to eliminate rimlock, and then it's supposed to somehow reliably feed differing OAL cartridges by physically feeding the cartridges in the same position I think (I think it somehow pushes cartridges to the rear face of the magazine so they get "picked up" from the same point regardless of their OAL). In any case it's gunmagic to me and I hoped someone could explain. This is the patent: Double Stack Box Magazine for Rimmed Cartridges of Varying Length

EDIT: So ok this would explain a single stack mag that would eliminate rimlock and allow for feeding from the same position but I don't really understand the transition from double stack to this

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION
[0012]
The present invention provides a new and better way of addressing this problem. A double stack box magazine may taper to a single stack feed at the top. In the double-stack portion, the rounds are allowed to shift forward and rearward without regard to head or rim position. Once single stack geometry is met, an angled surface on the inside of the magazine body catches both sides of the rim of the cartridge and pulls it back to the rear of the magazine, allowing proper alignment and preventing the rims from binding during feed.
[0013]
This allows a very large variation of cartridge lengths, both within or beyond the same nominal length, to be fed reliably from the same magazine. That is, not only can cartridges of varying actual lengths within the same nominal size (such as 2¾″) due to variation in manufacturer and/or load be mixed in the same magazine, cartridges of different nominal length (length call out, such as 3″) can be mixed in the same magazine (such as 2¾″ and 3″, up to the maximum chamber length of the shotgun) without loss of feed reliability. Because only one side of a cartridge rim at a time can engage a slot or groove on the inside surface of the magazine body when the shells are in alternating columns, if the front-to-rear dimension of the magazine body is sized to accept shells of varying lengths, the rims cannot reliably be held in alignment against the recoil forces of firing the shotgun or other vibration, sudden movement, or impact. The interior angled surface guides the rim of the uppermost cartridges to the rear, no matter how the shell has become situated during its travel up the magazine body, and places the rim of upper cartridges in front of the rim of the next cartridge below it.
[0014]
Alternatively, an insert can be used to take up the excess opening in the front of the magazine. This is less desirable because many different thicknesses of inserts would be needed to meet the same length capabilities as the primary. The followers would have to be switched out along with the inserts to account for the front to back shortening and lengthening of the magazines' interior. This would also sacrifice the ability to load 2¾″ and 3″ shotgun shells in the same magazine and would be less convenient or likely would not be well accepted by the shooter to have to swap out parts in the magazine.
[0015]
Another feature of the present design is a follower that is guided in front and rear (rather than lateral) tracks. This allows for a short, one-piece follower that maintains a consistent location as well as consistent force. A one-piece side tilting follower design, like used in many double stack pistol magazines, is possible, but does not offer the same consistency. Any inconsistencies can make jamming more likely. A side tilting design would have to tilt to the side as the follower transitioned between the single and double stack portions of the magazine, while at the same time maintaining the location and angle of the shells resting against the changing angles of the follower.

Alternatively I could just have roundnosed bullets that are as long as the spitzers

Your round won't headspace.

I was basically implying that I would forego the regular "short" rounds altogether and have a different cartridge with a longer bullet in both roundnose and spitzer form and have the gun specifically designed around firing those. Why would it not headspace?

[Puzikas]

So this would imply physically swapping something out for something else or smth like that or simply pushing a button or pulling a level or something like that on the rifle?

I'm talking about actually having to change a major components of the rifle, like the bolt, barrel, lower/upper receiver.

Well for one it's supposed to eliminate rimlock

I know what it is
You know semiautomaticlly rifles have existed and have been reliable with rimmed cartridges, right? It's not like Saiga or Vepr magazines are unreliable, nor SVT or SVD rifles and magazines. There's been ways to remove rimlock for a long time. The biggest issue with rimmed cartridges in magazines is the taper imparted as a result of the rim.

and then it's supposed to somehow reliably feed differing OAL cartridges by physically feeding the cartridges in the same position I think

Two very different things to do this with a shotgun and a rifle.

It's not different from anything else really.

Why would it not headspace?

Difference in shape. This is why modern rifles in modern bottle necked cartridges don't like different length cartridges.

[Kazarogkai]

(Image)

Added Stripper Clip Notch, and K98 style front sights...

For a weapon of that length that is a really shot barrel. For comparison a weapon that in part resembles your own the M1 garand had a total length of 43.5 in but had a barrel that was 24 in. if it had a barrel like yours it would have been only 37.5 in in total. I'm assuming the reason for the length of the weapon is the gas system used?