Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Gallia-]

who_cares what people here think.

You can look it up. The five ancient manuscripts or whatever that chronicle loads carried by ancient soldiers have been examined for hundreds of years.

[Theodosiya]

Gladius vs Arming Sword vs Bastard Sword. Which is the best for cavalry, infantrymen and archers? Settings would be TES universe.

[Laritaia]

Dovahkiin

[Theodosiya]

Dovahkiin

Without counting the Dragonborn (He'll use one of it anyway). Even then, New Legions (Which are mostly based on High and Late Roman Legion, Genoese Crossbowmen and Longbowmen, and High Medieval Knight, Men At Arms and Cataphract) actually have less standarization in some stuff. Legionnaires have spear, dagger, rectangular shield and 3 darts. They could choose between axe, mace and sword for melee. Same thing applies to cavalry, archers, etc.

[Fordorsia]

Gladius vs Arming Sword vs Bastard Sword. Which is the best for cavalry, infantrymen and archers? Settings would be TES universe.

Why do you have a gladius with those two?

[Crookfur]

Gladius vs Arming Sword vs Bastard Sword. Which is the best for cavalry, infantrymen and archers? Settings would be TES universe.

Doesn't matter what sidearm the infantry use, they will probably just bring whatever they personally prefer/can get hold of. You might see some high status infantry getting issued a blade and if so it would likely be of an arming sword type.

If long/bastard swords are around then that's what the cavalry will be using when dismounted although Lance and poleaxe/warhammer/horsemanship pick would be at least as common.

[Crookfur]

Gladius vs Arming Sword vs Bastard Sword. Which is the best for cavalry, infantrymen and archers? Settings would be TES universe.

Why do you have a gladius with those two?

Because he is trying to force some sort of standardised realism onto skyrim and doesn't want to.just pick a faction and stick with thier gear for some reason.

[Fordorsia]

gladius is the ultimate heavy cavalry weapon

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

gladius is the ultimate heavy cavalry weapon

False. The best weapon for fighting as a heavy cavalryman is a lance roughly in the range of four meters long, with a leaf-bladed spearhead on the front and a counterbalance on the other end. Long enough to outrange most infantry weapons save the like and most cavalry weapons save a lance of equal length.

[Gallia-]

Ultimate cavalry weapon: https://youtu.be/YGhWB2px99g?t=1m49s

SKS or M16. Choose your poison: http://www.twilight2000files.com/page502.html

[Fordorsia]

gladius is the ultimate heavy cavalry weapon

False. The best weapon for fighting as a heavy cavalryman is a lance roughly in the range of four meters long, with a leaf-bladed spearhead on the front and a counterbalance on the other end. Long enough to outrange most infantry weapons save the like and most cavalry weapons save a lance of equal length.

gladius I say

[Crookfur]

False. The best weapon for fighting as a heavy cavalryman is a lance roughly in the range of four meters long, with a leaf-bladed spearhead on the front and a counterbalance on the other end. Long enough to outrange most infantry weapons save the like and most cavalry weapons save a lance of equal length.

gladius I say

Pah a weedy gladius cannot stand up to the might of the cavalry boot knife!

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

i'll just leave this here in case anyone's interested

probably i'll get smashed for involuntary memeposting but its ok im a big boi

What pistols, revolvers, SMGs, PDWs are the most popular for civvies/LE in your nation and in what cartridges?

The most popular cartridge in RN is the 7.62x25mm Tokarev. This is used by both the military and law enforcement as a standard cartridge because of its superior penetration abilities which are considerable even with ball ammunition (thus allowing for a cheap, effective cartridge for the engagement of unarmored or lightly armored targets). Suffice to say, steel cored and especially tungsten cored ammunition will offer even greater AP potential. Adding to this modified high pressure loads and even different, spitzer-shaped bullets allows for the projection of this AP capability at great range relative to other handgun/small cartridges, especially when fired out of longer/SMG barrels.

For the purpose of engaging unarmored targets, 7.62x25mm Tokarev FMJ ammo has a significant potential of overpenetration. For this reason, and for increased terminal effects, JHP is typically used instead. Even if the JHP projectile overpenetrates (which could potentially be mitigated, to a point, with reduced pressure or lighter bullets, but taking into consideration expansion performance), its mushroomed shape (assuming proper expansion) tends to be non-aerodynamic and not give very effective penetration. Coupling this with the significant reduction in velocity caused by penetrating and exiting the initial target and the relatively low mass of the bullet should generally ensure that 7.62x25mm Tokarev JHP ammunition offers good and appropriate performance against unarmored targets and does not pose a very significant overpenetration risk.

However, for a number of reasons, principally offering improved performance against unarmored targets, a variant of the 9x25mm Mauser cartridge has also been standardized with the military and law enforcement. This cartridge should, compared to the 7.62x25mm Tokarev, offer improved performance (including terminal effects and less overpenetration) against unarmored and lightly armored targets with JHP (but also with ball) ammo, better performance in subsonic loads for suppressed applications, and generally compliment the 7.62x25mm Tokarev in being a more civilian-minded cartridge by offering reduced overpenetration risk and not focusing as much on armor penetration.

Whilst probably a good multipurpose cartridge given the widely accepted 9mm caliber, and with plenty of potential for high muzzle velocities implying high energy allowed for by the relatively large case capacity, this cartridge may prove to be relatively heavy on the recoil side (being, dimensionally at least, similar to a magnum auto cartridge in a way). For this reason, reduced recoil loads exist, similar to the FBI's 10mm Auto (actually, this cartridge and the 10mm Auto are dimensionally fairly similar, featuring about the same OAL and case length, but with a 9mm instead of 10mm diameter). These reduced recoil loads are used along with standard pressure and +P/+P+ in LE, military and civilian use for differing applications. The reduced recoil may appeal to smaller or weaker individuals or use in smaller/lighter guns which have significant felt recoil and muzzle rise as a result of lacking mass, and also for handguns. The standard pressure loads are good all-around and appropriate for use in both handguns and SMGs/PDWs. +P and +P+ ammo is typically designed for shouldered applications thus SMG/PDW use, giving increased velocity/range/energy, although some handguns are designed to fire it as well. The recoil with such a pistol or revolver wouldn't normally be for the faint of heart though. Subsonic ammunition can provide satisfactory performance compared to that in 7.62x25mm Tokarev, because the main driving force behind energy projection behind the latter is velocity, which is taken away by the subsonic load, leaving mass to do the job which is normally not sufficient given the small caliber/bullet size.

Another popular "duo" in RN is that of the .380 ACP and something like a .32 NAA (which is basically a .380 ACP necked down from 9mm to .32 or around 8mm) variant. The .380 ACP as a base cartridge is typically the largest common cartridge that small, concealed carry simple blowback pistols are chambered for, whilst at the same time being one of the smallest common cartridges offering good performance for self-defense and even in a LE/military context for short ranges. Thus, it is considered to be a good compromise between performance and convenience in a compact, small OAL package, allowing for very small and light weapons to be chambered in it because of its small physical size and mild recoil. It also has potential for close range suppressed applications because of its relatively mild sound and muzzle flash. For the reasons stated above, in the military&LE realm it is sometimes chosen over the 9x25mm for concealed carry or special applications, including as a back-up or deep carry gun by some police officers (respectively, undercover police officers) or by some Foreign Intelligence Agency personnel or special forces for similar purposes or silenced applications. For the same reasons, civilians may choose .380 ACP for concealed carry. The not!- .32 NAA would be intended for applications where increased velocity/range is desired, and possibly armor-penetration capability. A vaguely similar real-life cartridge would be the Russian 5.45x18mm. Well I guess I could have the option of going with both a .32 NAA as purely a .380 ACP general-purpose/flatter-flying, longer range improvement AND a microcaliber, dedicated AP cartridge.

A third and final couple is represented by the rimfire .22 LR and .22 WMR. These serve a multitude of purposes, including hunting small game or pests and live-fire training. These cartridges have limited but notable potential of being employed in a mostly defensive capacity, but possibly offensively as well, at relatively small ranges. The .22 WMR is generally considered to be better in every regard compared to the .22 LR, save for concealablility (the .22 WMR has a relatively big OAL whereas the .22 LR can be chambered in the same small pistol frames as .380 ACP concealed carry pistols) and to a marginal degree, cost. Thus, in RN, the most popular rimfire cartridge is the .22 WMR, with the .22 LR reserved mainly for concealed carry purposes. The .22 WMR offers considerably better performance at range, energy transfer, and in general first-hit stopping potential in a self-defense situation. .22 rifles can prove to be reasonably accurate to 200-300 meters but this is beyond the scope of defensive or offensive use against human targets as, at these ranges, the bullet is very unlikely to produce sufficient penetration or terminal effects against a man. Nevertheless, the .22 rimfire cartridges should not be underestimated - they have proved deadly in the hands of assassins (and not only) countless times throughout history, with many famous examples. Their diminutive muzzle flash and sound compared to bigger cartridges gives potential for discrete use, especially when fired from a silenced gun. At close and very close range, with accurate shot placement (or, alternatively, a lot of bullets), .22 can be very lethal. Also, because of their small physical size and relatively low energy, they allow for use in very small and light pistols and revolvers, whilst additionally commonly featuring a relatively high ammo capacity. All of these arguments have ensured that .22 LR and .22 WMR have their place with the LE & military for training, special operations or specialist roles, silenced applications, use as a back-up or deep carry gun, use as a survival weapon or for distribution with the purpose of inexpensively arming resistance groups. Same goes for the civilians who may select the purpose-made self-defense JHP loads, attracted by the large ammo capacity, mild recoil and small/light potential size of the guns, or who choose them for training, hunting or recreation. In this regard, for concealed carry .22 WMR snubnosed revolvers are preferred over the pistols as the bigger OAL which negatively impacts the latter because of their magazine-in-grip design does not affect the former. They are also generally preferred over the .22 LR revolvers because they typically retain the same ammo capacity whilst offering additional benefits over .22 LR without considerably worse recoil. As far as use in survival weapons is concerned, .22 WMR is perfectly capable of accurately and humanely effectively killing most small game and birds at ranges around 100m, while retaining the capability to kill even bigger animals, especially with multiple shots, although possibly foregoing the "humane" bit (allegedly this would only occur in emergency situations, as "survival weapon" would imply). Maximum effective range is around 200-300 meters depending on the barrel length, specific ammunition and target. As stated above, .22 WMR is a viable choice for self-defense in the context of a survival weapon, either directly (especially with multiple shots) or by providing a deterrent.

The main firearms chambered for "handgun cartridges", thus, the following:

• USH - Universal Service Handgun: Short recoil-operated pistol chambered in 7.62x25mm Tokarev and not!-9x25mm Mauser. Available in 4 main sizes, Full, Carry, Compact, Sub-Compact and 1-sub-model, "Slimline" which is a single-stack subcompact. Includes long barreled and fully-automatic variants with barrels up to about 7-8" in length to make for an ad-hoc SMG/PDW with the addition of a vertical grip, stock and sight or a clamshell conversion kit.
• USG - Universal Service Sub-machine Gun: short stroke gas-operated SMG chambered in 7.62x25mm Tok and not!-9x25mm Mauser. Is designed to fire hotter and longer OAL rounds (including pressure handling capacity and appropriate magazines).

###WIP

[Fordorsia]

gladius I say

Pah a weedy gladius cannot stand up to the might of the cavalry boot knife!

Shieeeeeet

[Puzikas]

I toyed with 13 men split between two IFVs but that means five (!) maneuver elements per squad and I'm really not sure how smoothly that's gonna work out

You'll be fine
The sergeants will manage
All four of them

So you know how cuddly EDA-R is a real life boat like Spearhead? I mean the whole "having a substantial draught" thing.

What if you had a Spearhead type landing craft? Like a Big!Zubr?

Or is that what the Navy wants to do with EPF and ESD anyway? I'm trying to think of ways Galla might have a powerful amphibious capability since it is an island country and all that's coming to mind are outsized SES monstrosities on the order 3000 tons and catamaran LSTs. How do I escape disco age solutions to ancient problems?

Can you explain what you mean spearhead here? I don't understand. The term fails me.

If you need to land many troops much fast, really all I can think of besides VEH DEH VEH like airborne force and their Naval counterparts is just using hovercraft with amphibious transport docks and Landers.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65329749/Lineart/Spergscale/Infantry/Galla/Gallanhistorical.png

Hot.

The Russian Typhoon series are a little unusual in that they're in a bit of a twilight area between "full" wheeled AFVs like Boxer and "classic" MRAPs like Buffalo. But they seem to be designed mostly for convoy use, either convoy escort for the armed models or actual transport for the truck-frame models. They're not for battlefield transportation.

I could say much of the typhoon.

It's primarily military (>>>>>>) use is going to be just to be a lightweight mover and replace several other trucks in Russian service, and it's going to cary dudes around places outside high intensity areas.
They're biggest users under fire will be the MVD.
The BTR and upgrades will keep moving dudes where the fight is.

I think that the large squad concept is based on individual squads being able to act as an independent maneuver unit on a tactical scale, meaning being able to use their component fireteams to engage, suppress, surround and destroy the enemy. This is fundamentally different from the smaller squads that are carried in IFVs and smaller-capacity APCs in that those squads are intended to work with one another to do the same thing and are much less independent because of it.

Am I correct on this?

No
It's to allow them to absorb casualties and have redundancy so the platoons do not loose their weapons sets and dont render the company combat ineffective
It was at a time to allow the infantry to close to combat range and engage while the Machine gun team suppressed the formation, engage and then destroy them with the bayonet and grenade.

what problems could I encounter with using differing OAL cartridges but w/same case length in a semi-automatic firearm? e.g. different length shotgun shells, longer spitzer bullets vs shorter roundnosed bullets in a handgun cartridge etc.

Jams, double feeds, and headspacing issues.
Not an issue with straightwall cartridges as much. More an issue with modern self loaders.

also, given that my military uses 7.62x25mm as a handgun/PDW/SMG round and I like to have commonality with my police forces, would it make sense to have the same guns but with a different barrel that would fire what would essentially be a tapered 9x25mm Mauser (essentially a 7.62 Tok without bottlenecking) ? I think that should give less overpenetration against unarmored targets, better effects with JHP loads, and possibly better performance for subsonic (silenced) applications?

Yes

Just out of curiosity, what do some people here think would be important in an infantryman's assault pack for maintaining high tempo operations, if they were a soldier from an army in 200 BC or whatever?

Drink
Food
Shoes

[Korva]

Ultimate cavalry weapon: https://youtu.be/YGhWB2px99g?t=1m49s

How many cbj-ms per platoon should I have to repel horseborn yellow menace?

[Padnak]

Any reason to not arm every member of a squad with RPDs lolol

[Fordorsia]

Any reason to not arm every member of a squad with RPDs lolol

Yes. RPD is garbage.

[Padnak]

Any reason to not arm every member of a squad with RPDs lolol

Yes. RPD is garbage.

I always thought it was a perfectly serviceable if unspectacular weapon

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Any reason to not arm every member of a squad with RPDs lolol

Beta-C mags exist.

[Fordorsia]

ur a beta

[Korva]

tfw 2009 memes

[Fordorsia]

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

ur a beta

mfw

[Padnak]

This entire thread is a giant cuck