Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Fordorsia]

(Image)

Approximate Gallan 1950s infantrymen.

Missing the 6.5mm Brens.

And they're a bit too colonial.

But what is the whole squad like

[Gallia-]

Bigger.

[Fordorsia]

What gunz

[Gallia-]

AR-10s, Crookfur's goofy idea of an Auto Ordnance T2 with an Uzi-type pistol grip magwell (in 9mm), and Brens. Weapons section has Grg m/48.

1940s is Ag m/42s, Cute!T2s, and Brens. Recoilless is 57mm M18 instead of Carl Gustav. 1940s guys also wear anime-esque blue uniforms with red and white trim.

Alt. idea is FN49s in 6.5mm for 1940s.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/653 ... rreich.png
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/653 ... orical.png

[Fordorsia]

Crookfur's goofy idea of an Auto Ordnance T2 with an Uzi-type pistol grip magwell (in 9mm)

wat, pls draw

[Gallia-]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/653 ... orical.png

[Fordorsia]

I do not agree with your weapon choice. Crook has failed you

[Gallia-]

Sorry I'll draw a .50 BMG T2 eventually.

[Fordorsia]

oo bby

[Kazarogkai]

Speaking of SMGs Ford Mechanized Infantry don't even bother with them. Just rifles, plumbing carbines, support rifles, shotguns and GPMGs. The ultimate goodness.

Anyone else have their 40s-50s mechanized squads?

In 1940 though the Kaza do have access to some motorized units concentrated in various "cavalry" divisions for the Kaza the vast vast majority of their troops would still be primarily foot bound light infantry relying on supply trains composed primarily of ox pulled wagons. Kinda like the japanese, or the germans outside the panzer divisions for that matter. This won't really change until the early 50s when motorization would take place. Its' gonna take until the 60s at the minimum before the Kaza would come close to mechanization. Ahh them third world backwater problems. To think they used to be kings.

Terminology for me to you, when I say things and hear them this is what I mean and say:
- Light = Infantry that are transported via manpower primarily referring to foot units but can also include bicycle units . I would also possibly count paratroopers in this definition since they are transported to the battlefield via plains but historically fought on foot mostly.
- Mounted = Infantry that are transported via horse or other animal borne transport(Battle Ostriches?)
- Motorized = Infantry that are transported by trucks or other "light skinned motor vehicles.
- Mechanized = Infantry that are transported by APCs or IFVs.

Nevertheless this is the overall organization of my Motorized Platoon of 1940, not exactly what you wanted but whatever:

Just a question for you guys. Within said aforementioned light infantry units I currently give bicycles to my embedded reconnaissance forces though in higher levels armoured cars are made use of for this purpose. I was just wondering your thoughts on doing the same for the signalers within my units. Specifically I was thinking of giving my runners some type of foldable bicycle of sorts which would be used for this purpose to make their lives just a bit easier. If they need to be more obscure they can simply fold it up and place it on their backs. This was to combined with the granting of supply bikes to the regular infantry. Similar to the ones used by the vietcong I meant these not for riding but for transport of supplies carried by the soldiers on the march. Just some ideas I thought of.

[United states of brazilian nations]

AR-10s, Crookfur's goofy idea of an Auto Ordnance T2 with an Uzi-type pistol grip magwell (in 9mm), and Brens. Weapons section has Grg m/48.

1940s is Ag m/42s, Cute!T2s, and Brens. Recoilless is 57mm M18 instead of Carl Gustav. 1940s guys also wear anime-esque blue uniforms with red and white trim.

Alt. idea is FN49s in 6.5mm for 1940s.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/653 ... rreich.png
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/653 ... orical.png

These uniforms, inspired by Valkyria Chronicles, maybe? Pretty cool. I used a very similar tone of blue, albet a bit more grey-ish i think for Serra Clara's regular infantry in 1890. I think i'll keep the same uniforms through WWI. (never mind the completely screwed up proportions, i'm a master at getting all the proportions wrong)

Also, that SMG looks... Pretty unique. I have experimented with 1940's grip-magwell SMGs as well but they just don't look right to me. Little Brazil's motorized infantry gets Modelo 1940 semi-automatic rifles and the conservative Modelo 1939 submachineguns instead, with some units recieving a few Modelo 1944 automatic rifles later.

[Gallia-]

AR-10s, Crookfur's goofy idea of an Auto Ordnance T2 with an Uzi-type pistol grip magwell (in 9mm), and Brens. Weapons section has Grg m/48.

1940s is Ag m/42s, Cute!T2s, and Brens. Recoilless is 57mm M18 instead of Carl Gustav. 1940s guys also wear anime-esque blue uniforms with red and white trim.

Alt. idea is FN49s in 6.5mm for 1940s.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/653 ... rreich.png
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/653 ... orical.png

These uniforms, inspired by Valkyria Chronicles, maybe? Pretty cool.

Yes Galla is even named for it.

Bravest.

[Mozria]

For a well-funded modern-day conventional military that has has recent COIN experience while still having conventional parity threats, would it be a good idea to use an MRAP-style transport truck with a heavy (autocannon/AGL) RWS for carting around motorized infantry? Think Kamaz-63968. Alternative would be to use relatively heavily armored (near IFV-level) wheeled transports or, perhaps, lighter but amphibious wheeled transports.

[Austrasien]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRAP#Post ... plications

However, by August 2013, the 2ID had decided not to utilize the over 80 MRAPs on the peninsula. They determined the vehicles were “not suitable for maneuver battalions to use” and that there are no plans to add MRAPs to their fleet in the foreseeable future.

MRAP type vehicles are not suitable for use anywhere except on roads and hard, dry soil. As infantry transports outside the COIN context they don't have much utility because more often than not they will not be able to deliver the infantry to the objective.

[Mozria]

I see. Given that, I find it curious that Russia is trying to adopt vehicles of such type for regular usage. Perhaps they are planning on having to do a lot more COIN in near future.

So, should I go with lighter, amphibious wheeled transports and tracked IFVs?

[The Akasha Colony]

For a well-funded modern-day conventional military that has has recent COIN experience while still having conventional parity threats, would it be a good idea to use an MRAP-style transport truck with a heavy (autocannon/AGL) RWS for carting around motorized infantry? Think Kamaz-63968. Alternative would be to use relatively heavily armored (near IFV-level) wheeled transports or, perhaps, lighter but amphibious wheeled transports.

Is there a particular reason they must be wheeled?

In any event, something like a generic Piranha clone 8x8 like Stryker or Patria AMV or Terrex or Boxer would be better.

But by the time you start getting to "IFV-level" armaments and armor, it might be time to just buy some IFVs. The economies offered by wheeled vehicles start disappearing at these performance levels.

[Mozria]

I was just wanting the road-friendliness of wheeled vehicles matched with the protection of heavier armor. As stated, the vehicles would be designed with very recent (and possibly future) COIN experience in mind, and be intended to resist heavy machine guns and light man-portable antiarmor weapons.

Perhaps the latter concern could be solved with much less weight through the use of an APS? It seems expensive to have one on every APC, though.

[Austrasien]

You are looking for an 8x8 wheeled APC.

[Mozria]

Perhaps, but the idea of what is essentially a much more heavily armored transport truck with an RWS is just terribly cool to me.

Especially considering that 14.5x114mm-resistant transparent glass is viable...

[Gallia-]

I was just wanting the road-friendliness of wheeled vehicles matched with the protection of heavier armor. As stated, the vehicles would be designed with very recent (and possibly future) COIN experience in mind, and be intended to resist heavy machine guns and light man-portable antiarmor weapons.

Perhaps the latter concern could be solved with much less weight through the use of an APS? It seems expensive to have one on every APC, though.

Stryker.
BTR-3.
Boxer.

Perhaps, but the idea of what is essentially a much more heavily armored transport truck with an RWS is just terribly cool to me.

Terribly is the accurate adverb.

Terribly stupid.

[The Akasha Colony]

I was just wanting the road-friendliness of wheeled vehicles matched with the protection of heavier armor. As stated, the vehicles would be designed with very recent (and possibly future) COIN experience in mind, and be intended to resist heavy machine guns and light man-portable antiarmor weapons.

Perhaps the latter concern could be solved with much less weight through the use of an APS? It seems expensive to have one on every APC, though.

And what experience is that in particular?

Wheeled armored vehicles like MRAPs became a thing because the Western coalition that ended up in Iraq and Afghanistan decided that "conventional parity threats" were not a serious issue (peace dividend and all that) and thus they could devote their time and resources to developing what they felt to be "optimum" solutions to the COIN issue. And the result was the MRAP, which ended up being a bit too specialized, and the medium armor craze epitomized by the proliferation of 8x8 wheeled death trucks, which is a bit more multi-purpose.

So my point is that if "conventional parity threats" are still an issue, there is a strong incentive to avoid relying too heavily on light wheeled carriers that would get rekt in a conventional high-intensity conflict. Especially ones with nearly nonexistent off-road performance like the MRAPs. Heavy tracked vehicles can do COIN just fine, they're just more expensive than the cash-strapped Western militaries in the Middle East would like to pay for, so they went for more economical wheeled carriers because they thought the conventional threat was mostly a thing of the past.

[Gallia-]

TIL Akasha learns of the death of Western civilization.

[Mozria]

Hey Galla, no need to be rude. I understand why APCs have become what they are. What I am not so sure of, though, is exactly why the use of a 6x6 or 8x8 autocannon-resistant truck-based vehicle would be explicitly bad. I would suppose it to be something to do with large volume and the resulting difficulty of armoring that volume without becoming needlessly heavy.

[Gallia-]

MRAPs aren't "autocannon resistant". Tanks are.

Wheels are rubbish for any AFV.

[The Akasha Colony]

Hey Galla, no need to be rude. I understand why APCs have become what they are. What I am not so sure of, though, is exactly why the use of a 6x6 or 8x8 autocannon-resistant truck-based vehicle would be explicitly bad. I would suppose it to be something to do with large volume and the resulting difficulty of armoring that volume without becoming needlessly heavy.

Generally, yes. This is basically it.

At the weight level needed to provide all-around protection from 14.5 mm and frontal protection from 30 mm (the basic protection standards of a reasonably modern IFV), a tracked vehicle will be smaller and likely weigh less than a wheeled vehicle, while having much superior off road mobility. It will likely have roughly the same up front cost, as well. It will also be much shorter and thus less visible than a wheeled vehicle.

The downsides are a lower road speed and higher operating costs because tracks wear faster and tracked vehicles require larger, more powerful engines, which consume more fuel.

The Russian Typhoon series are a little unusual in that they're in a bit of a twilight area between "full" wheeled AFVs like Boxer and "classic" MRAPs like Buffalo. But they seem to be designed mostly for convoy use, either convoy escort for the armed models or actual transport for the truck-frame models. They're not for battlefield transportation.