Infantry Discussion Thread 10: Shovel Edition [NO FWORDS]

[Gallan Systems]

ultimate weapon v-22 is a good forklift and cargo hauler tho

hence my only images of it in gaylan service are being unloaded by an ATLAS or sth iirc while harriers buzz around i the sky

[Laritaia]

except the USMC has purchased the V-22 as the assault helicopter and the CH-53K as the forklift/pickup truck

[Gallan Systems]

except the USMC has purchased the V-22 as the assault helicopter and the CH-53K as the forklift/pickup truck

i thot UH-1Y was the principal assault ship and v-22 is more like a multipurpose sidekick for KAING STAHLUN and venom?

[Laritaia]

except the USMC has purchased the V-22 as the assault helicopter and the CH-53K as the forklift/pickup truck

i thot UH-1Y was the principal assault ship and v-22 is more like a multipurpose sidekick for KAING STAHLUN and venom?

The UH-1Y is for all the general tasks, such as medevac, reconnaissance, light troop transport, flying command post, etc etc.

The V-22 makes up the bulk of an MEUs airwing and is the principle ride for the assault force

[Gallan Systems]

forward airspeed is armor ;-;

[Dostanuot Loj]

So I'm starting to consider a 3x3 section approach for infantry. 10 men total including the SL. With some inherent flexibility, or at least encouraged flexibility to the SL. So the idea is 10 men, three ubgl rifles, two automatic rifles, five regular rifles, and the section has issued both a CARL G and LMG. One rifleman each is trained to operate the Carl G and LMG with the other to act as assistant (ty for the idea Gallia). These two would be in the third fireteam and use whichever weapon the SL says, with the other two fire teams being balanced as 3 men, one with an automatic rifle, one with the ubgl, and one with a regular rifle and an AT4.

How does this sound?

[Gallan Systems]

It's the US Army's idea tbf.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

I'm a bit too early either way to use the Black Hawk, but I will make provisions to switch over to it when it becomes available in numbers.

How much is a transport helicopter expected to use its door guns in combat? Would they just be used to suppress enemy targets during insertion and extraction, and for self defense?

Also, would the Mark 19 make a good door gun weapon, or should I just stick with 7.62mm machine guns like everybody else?

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Isn't a helicopter with a pusher propeller in the back superior to a tiltrotor ?

edit: I'm going fully off sparkyTM Knowledge

[Laritaia]

Isn't a helicopter with a pusher propeller in the back superior to a tiltrotor ?

edit: I'm going fully off sparkyTM Knowledge

if your objective is pure speed then no

I'm a bit too early either way to use the Black Hawk, but I will make provisions to switch over to it when it becomes available in numbers.

How much is a transport helicopter expected to use its door guns in combat? Would they just be used to suppress enemy targets during insertion and extraction, and for self defense?

Also, would the Mark 19 make a good door gun weapon, or should I just stick with 7.62mm machine guns like everybody else?

The best helicopter door guns are Miniguns, the high rate of fire dramatically increases your ability to actually hit the target.

[United states of brazilian nations]

What about, say, the Mi-24/35 Hind? It seems like it's fill the role of an assault transport pretty well, plus with some serious firepower to boot. Myself, i'm thinking about using a mixed fleet of not!Hinds and not!Super Pumas or not!Blackhawks, with the Hinds landing first and, after disembarking their troops, providing cover for the other helicopters.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

I've thought about the Hind but I'm trying to ensure ease of maintinence with as few different helos as possible. The Hind comes from entirely across the world from the Huey and CH-53.

[Gallan Systems]

Because UH-1 and CH-53 share so many parts.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Didn't say they did, but those are two helicopters that can do a lot of stuff. Why throw Hinds in there if you don't need to? What can the Hind do that Cobras can't, or Hueys can't?

[Gallan Systems]

They aren't comparable.

Hind is a true assault transport.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

I was under the impression that the Hind wasn't generally used as a transport? Just like Merkava can transport troops but that's not its purpose. Or if the Hind transported people, it was aircrews from downed helicopters/planes, or Spetsnaz assault teams.

[EsToVnIa]

As been stated a few times, Algeria uses Hinds as transports

[Crookfur]

I was under the impression that the Hind wasn't generally used as a transport? Just like Merkava can transport troops but that's not its purpose. Or if the Hind transported people, it was aircrews from downed helicopters/planes, or Spetsnaz assault teams.

IIRC in russian service it tends not to be despite the assault transport role being a big part of the orginal concept. The general theme is that Mil and the procurement people had this concept of a flying BMP but when it was finally ready for delivery the army had a hard time finding an actual role for it and it pretty much defaulted to being used as a CAS platform.

I think Puz mentioned that in a big oepration at least some of the Hinds would be used to deploy specialist teams and small groups like spetnaz, recce, command and ATGM troops and again IIRC they were used to resupply some of higher elevation bases in Afghanistan where there wings would help them if they could get a run up.

The Merkava analogy is both pretty good and bit wrong, the hidn was always intended to carry troops and intially Didn;t have to sacrafice anything to do so but latterly the troop bay would more commonly be used to carry reloads for the ATGMs (in much as the same way as was done on the TOW equipped Lynx AH.7s and other utility designs pressed into service as "gunships").

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

I was under the impression that the Hind wasn't generally used as a transport? Just like Merkava can transport troops but that's not its purpose. Or if the Hind transported people, it was aircrews from downed helicopters/planes, or Spetsnaz assault teams.

IIRC in russian service it tends not to be despite the assault transport role being a big part of the orginal concept. The general theme is that Mil and the procurement people had this concept of a flying BMP but when it was finally ready for delivery the army had a hard time finding an actual role for it and it pretty much defaulted to being used as a CAS platform.

I think Puz mentioned that in a big oepration at least some of the Hinds would be used to deploy specialist teams and small groups like spetnaz, recce, command and ATGM troops and again IIRC they were used to resupply some of higher elevation bases in Afghanistan where there wings would help them if they could get a run up.

The Merkava analogy is both pretty good and bit wrong, the hidn was always intended to carry troops and intially Didn;t have to sacrafice anything to do so but latterly the troop bay would more commonly be used to carry reloads for the ATGMs (in much as the same way as was done on the TOW equipped Lynx AH.7s and other utility designs pressed into service as "gunships").

How useful would the ability to carry eight troops be on a helicopter, anyway? On one hand, the Marder, an actual IFV, can carry only seven, and eight is more than seven. On the other hand, the Huey can carry almost twice that number despite being overall a much lighter helicopter.

An obvious solution might be to use both, but I don't think mixing NATO and Pact vehicles into the same military makes much sense.

[United states of brazilian nations]

IIRC in russian service it tends not to be despite the assault transport role being a big part of the orginal concept. The general theme is that Mil and the procurement people had this concept of a flying BMP but when it was finally ready for delivery the army had a hard time finding an actual role for it and it pretty much defaulted to being used as a CAS platform.

I think Puz mentioned that in a big oepration at least some of the Hinds would be used to deploy specialist teams and small groups like spetnaz, recce, command and ATGM troops and again IIRC they were used to resupply some of higher elevation bases in Afghanistan where there wings would help them if they could get a run up.

The Merkava analogy is both pretty good and bit wrong, the hidn was always intended to carry troops and intially Didn;t have to sacrafice anything to do so but latterly the troop bay would more commonly be used to carry reloads for the ATGMs (in much as the same way as was done on the TOW equipped Lynx AH.7s and other utility designs pressed into service as "gunships").

How useful would the ability to carry eight troops be on a helicopter, anyway? On one hand, the Marder, an actual IFV, can carry only seven, and eight is more than seven. On the other hand, the Huey can carry almost twice that number despite being overall a much lighter helicopter.

An obvious solution might be to use both, but I don't think mixing NATO and Pact vehicles into the same military makes much sense.

Welcome to Brazil, where Air Force AH-2 Sabres (Mi-35) operate side by side with Air Force UH-60 Blackhawks and Army Super Pumas.

Then again, Brazil is not a country known for making sense at all.

[Purpelia]

Certain rifles in history have had volley sights, folding anti aircraft sights, hyper long range (2000m or so) iron sights and other such aberrations of the iron sight variety. Which of these (or some other) is your favorite and why. And which of these would still be interesting to have on a modern service rifle? Also, elaborate your answers.

[Dostanuot Loj]

It's the US Army's idea tbf.

Yes but I'm trying to give props to my favorite Fungi, not America.

[Tekeristan]

Certain rifles in history have had volley sights, folding anti aircraft sights, hyper long range (2000m or so) iron sights and other such aberrations of the iron sight variety. Which of these (or some other) is your favorite and why. And which of these would still be interesting to have on a modern service rifle? Also, elaborate your answers.

If you aren't using your mosin rifle set to 2000m in RO2 you aren't doing it right.

But on topic, interesting to see how people possibly proposed to use such.. Most fights happen within 300 meters, right?

[Gallia-]

I was under the impression that the Hind wasn't generally used as a transport? Just like Merkava can transport troops but that's not its purpose. Or if the Hind transported people, it was aircrews from downed helicopters/planes, or Spetsnaz assault teams.

It was literally designed as a flying IFV.

Whether it's good at that job or not is a bit irrelevant. You're asking about specific designs not the practical matters which no one here has any idea about unless they're career Army aviators or know of people who were.

IIRC in russian service it tends not to be despite the assault transport role being a big part of the orginal concept. The general theme is that Mil and the procurement people had this concept of a flying BMP but when it was finally ready for delivery the army had a hard time finding an actual role for it and it pretty much defaulted to being used as a CAS platform.

I think Puz mentioned that in a big oepration at least some of the Hinds would be used to deploy specialist teams and small groups like spetnaz, recce, command and ATGM troops and again IIRC they were used to resupply some of higher elevation bases in Afghanistan where there wings would help them if they could get a run up.

The Merkava analogy is both pretty good and bit wrong, the hidn was always intended to carry troops and intially Didn;t have to sacrafice anything to do so but latterly the troop bay would more commonly be used to carry reloads for the ATGMs (in much as the same way as was done on the TOW equipped Lynx AH.7s and other utility designs pressed into service as "gunships").

How useful would the ability to carry eight troops be on a helicopter, anyway? On one hand, the Marder, an actual IFV, can carry only seven, and eight is more than seven. On the other hand, the Huey can carry almost twice that number despite being overall a much lighter helicopter.

An obvious solution might be to use both, but I don't think mixing NATO and Pact vehicles into the same military makes much sense.

cf. No practical understanding.

Huey has like five bench seats which you can cram a few people into, excluding the two door gunners. It isn't carrying more than Hind, and it's carrying them less comfortably. UH-1 is substantially smaller than Hind, after all.

Crookfur is right. Hind had a funky Disco Age design philosophy of being a combination armored transport and flying artillery piece to support deep airborne operations. In practice it ended up being used as either a hunter-killer gunship with boatloads of ammo in the crew compartment while Mi-17 was the assault ship, or the reverse because Mi-17 has a larger view area for the pilot/crew.

It's the US Army's idea tbf.

Yes but I'm trying to give props to my favorite Fungi, not America.

My mycelium stretches from sea to shining sea.

My patriotism for America is so heartfelt and visible that my passport arrived in a fortnight from going to the county clerk to showing up in my mailbox. I never even ordered expedited processing but it happened anyway. Such is the depth of my Guthrie-esque love for America that it appears even on the NRO's Electric Eye.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Alright, the Hind is a great helo for air assault. But would it make sense for a nation based on a NATO power to be using it? Or is it a relatively simple matter to modify to Hind to use western weapons, and obtaining spare parts is merely a matter of setting up the supply lines?