Your Nation's Air Force Mark III: Best Korea Edition

[Gallan Systems]

at least "cheaper than an f16 guy" was partly correct

but only because f16v is triply overpriced

weird because we got arabs to pay for the entire r+d for f16d

if only we could get europeans and japanese to pay for JSF

but yeah it's weird

even with teh amortized costs from UAE sales F-16V is costing Taiwan 50% more than JSF but i dont think anyone knows the "true" cost of JSF including support infrastructure, which the -V contract for the ROCAF probably includes (and it may not be comparable in customer support)

but then how much does a help desk really cost to run? makes you think hmmmstve

and JSF also has massive amounts of badgering and baggage and each sale may be costing L-M money in the short run that is only made up by foreign sales of -Vs and potential for long-term support

[Austrasien]

Unit cost unfortunately is also fake because none of the numbers ever really line up.

[New Vihenia]

Plus nobody really agrees on what method or what element should be added into cost or price.

[Republica Federal de Catalunya]

If I have to pick between AN/APG-67 and ELM-2032 for Light Combat/Advanced Trainer T-50, what would it be? It's trainer, sure, but in a pinch, it must be able to take multirole duties like F-16, at least to some degree.

Any better radar are acceptable, if could be fitted for the fighter/trainer.

FIAR Grifo series may be could be an alternative too

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

These kinds of activities with GBU-53's are probs dangerous irl. Probs...

[Batea del Nord]

The Northern Batea Air Force (Força Aeria de Batea del Nord) received a total of 45 F-16A/B block 15 aircraft. 43 of these have been upgraded to MLU standard several times.

The Força Aeria de Batea del Nord, during and after Batean independence war, had operated a handful Mig-21s flown by UAF defectors but consisted mostly of light aircrafts.
The Air Force wanted to go Western.
The FABN F-16s service started, short after Independence, when the Airforce began it's expansion, the FABN/NBAF received them as defense surplus from the USA 20 F-16 block 15-OCU Aircrafts, Other ACSN nations provided the funds and support for the purchase as they were already F-16 users. (17 A's and 3 B's) along additional 10 PW F100, extra APG-66, replacement parts, support equipment, books, pilot and maintenance personnel instruction. The ROCAF already a F16 user provided training FABN pilots and groundcrews, provided also initial logistic support and 2 CAE flight simulators.
The program was started with the signature of a Letter of Acceptance. The agreement was partly a payment for the use by other ACSN nations of Batean Bases and Batean commitement to ACSN peacekeeping mision in Alma.

The aircraft were ex-USAF/ANG AMARC stored late production Block 15 OCU, which had very few flight hours, They were almost identical to the F-16 ADF (Air Defense Fighter). In fact, the only thing that distinguished them from the ADF are the AIFF (advanced IFF) antennas or bird-slicers in front of the canopy. As a result, the aircraft had the identification light on the port side of the nose, and feature large bulges on the tail fin root which house the actuators for the tail planes (the actuators were relocated to make room for the installation of HF equipment and antenna). The B-models lack the HF antenna and thus the consequent large bulges. The aircraft configuration is almost standard but received some improvements, most notably the Ring Laser Gyro, the Wide-Angle HUD, Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220E engine with DEEC and provisions for the use of the AIM-120 AMRAAM.

The aircraft kept the USAF 3 tone paintjob and registration numbers receiving batean numerals the original 20 10XX.

Being The 31é Esquadró/31st Squadron activated with the arrival of the first aircraft 2B and 6As in the eve of the 3rd Batean-Ucenan war.

The 31st Squadron saw active combat service during the 3rd Batean-Ucenan war. Serving on the first moments of the war helping to stop some raids against Batean forces and targets forcing the then more powerful Ucenan Air Force to send escorts and to jetison the air-ground ammunitions, also the 31st slowed the Ucenan offensive launching attacks on the advancing columns and escorting other NBAF attack aircraft. The 31st was ordered not to engage UAFs Mig29s. The FABN only downed one light attack aircraft and 1 Mig21R, for no losses.
As allied reinforcements arrived 31st Squadron was relegated to airfield defence, escort and armed reece. As 31st Squadron had little experience in CAS and lacked AMRAAMs.

During the Peace the remaining F-16 were delivered to put the 31st Squadron at it's teoric strenght of 16 Fighters. Also AMRAAMs were get as more equipment. Also the Squadron complemented Allied BAP patrols air space intercepting UAF intruders and taking part in the clashes against UAF. the FABN concluded that 1 squadron was not enough for the future needs of NBAF.

In 2015 the Força Aeria de Batea del Nord requested the Government the funds and to purchase 25 USANG-surplus F-16A/B ADF's (re-engined), together with 8 spare F100-PW-220E engines and 2 Simulators. At a cost of €300 million. Those aircraft were to equip the 3rd Wing with 2 squadrons. They received numerals 11xx.

The USA government accepted to sell 25 used F-16A/B Block 15 Falcons USAF . The aircraft are transferred free of charge (Batea had to bring them to Europe, either by disassembly or flown-in by NBAF pilots). It appears that Batea agreed also has to buy new engines and spares.

On February 14th, 2016, the Northern Batean government gave the FABN the go-ahead for the acquisition. The contract includes 25 (21 A's and 4 B's) used aircraft, which will be re-engined (probably with the F100-PW-220E). The 32nd squadron received 16 aircraft while the remaining 9 were held in reserve. Total value of the deal was 45.000 million BFs (some USD 360 million) which includes aircraft shipment, modification kits, logistics support and training and is to be paid for in parts until 2019 . Batea del Nord signed the Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LoA) on March 30th, 2016, for 25 F-16 aircraft and 25 upgrade kits to modernize its air force.

The aircraft, formerly part of the US Air Force inventory, are being transferred as Excess Defense Articles under the Southern Regional Amendment to the Arms Export and Control Act. A mix of FABN and FARC pilots brought them Catalan Air Force depot in Salitja were they were brought to MLU M5 upgrade that made them comparable to C/D block 50. before delivery to FABN.


Mid-life Update: the 25 second batch F-16 block 15 aircraft to MLU-standard with modification kits bought from Lockheed Martin. The deal was worth about €270 million to Lockheed Martin, the Pentagon said. The sale would also include support equipment, training, technical assistance and spare parts. The kits are assembled largely with equipment acquired from other manufacturers in the United States and Europe, but Lockheed Martin manages the program from Fort Worth. Those European packs came from CAE Sabadell plant and SABCA plant.

The F-16s that were refurbished, received five major MLU modifications. Being the most important. The Falcon UP structural upgrade, the F100-PW-220E engine upgrade and the F-16A/B Mid-Life update (MLU) avionics and cockpit upgrade.

Other upgrades to the second batch aircraft include a night identification light, dedicated electronic warfare MUX bus, additional chaff/flare dispensers, plus provisions for an internal missile warning system and a flight analyzer/air combat evaluation/voice and data recorder.

The FABN tried to get more modern falcon variants or Grippens. But, due the costs of the 4th Batean-Ucenan war it decided instead to upgrade the 18 1st batch survivors to MLU variant. Instead of building the 34 planed Grippens it upgraded the 18 1st batch F16s (15As/3Bs).

The MLU kits are were produced by the European industrial partners on the F-16 program and accumulated and shipped from SABCA and CAE. Later after the 4th Batean-Ucena war he FABN the 18 additional aircraft kits. That were fitted in Batea by Batea Aircraft Industries with CAE and SABCA technical assistance.

The MLU changes include: block 50 F-16C/D-style cockpit with color multifunction displays, modular mission computer, APG-66(V)2 radar update, digital terrain system, Global Positioning System, advanced identification friend or foe, Improved Data Modem data link, electronic warfare management system, plus provisions for a reconnaissance pod and a helmet-mounted display.

Armament and Stores
The second batch F-16s retained their Sparrow capability, But they never used them as they are fitted with the AIM120 AMRAAM instead. The Main air-to-air armament of the NBAF F-16s consists of AIM-9L Sidewinder and IRIS-T missiles. The NBAF has purchased a number of AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-88 and Penguin Antiship missiles too.

Together with the introduction of the MLU upgrade, the FABN also introduced new weapon systems to use with these upgraded aircraft. The Batean Air Force: Got JDAMs, Pakeway IV bombs, SBDs, Integrated fuel tanks. Olympus Reece Pods and Rafael Litening II pods.
FABN F-16s use the AN/ALQ-131 ECM pods, that were upgraded to AN/ALQ131V2 by Batean Aircraft Industries with Dutch assistance.

[Barfleur]

My heart is broke at the thought of what the US Navy missed out on with the F-14 Super Tomcat 21.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Another 4.5gen hyper fighter that will shoot down exactly zero (0) other fighters during its service life rip

[Gallia-]

My heart is broke at the thought of what the US Navy missed out on with the F-14 Super Tomcat 21.

missed out on a crummy hangar queen that had the lowest operational rates and lowest mission capable rates of all Fleet tactical fighters?

very sad indeed

rip in piece

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

My heart is broke at the thought of what the US Navy missed out on with the F-14 Super Tomcat 21.

missed out on a crummy hangar queen that had the lowest operational rates and lowest mission capable rates of all Fleet tactical fighters?

very sad indeed

rip in piece

AF(X) tho...

[Gallia-]

no one figured out what AFX was going to be

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

no one figured out what AFX was going to be

F

[Barfleur]

Another 4.5gen hyper fighter that will shoot down exactly zero (0) other fighters during its service life rip

Suggestion: F-14Z Twin Tomcat a la Twin Mustang
Then we can have a F-17 Jaguar, the world's first carrier-capable 6th generation jet fighter. Well, a man can dream...

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Another 4.5gen hyper fighter that will shoot down exactly zero (0) other fighters during its service life rip

Suggestion: F-14Z Twin Tomcat a la Twin Mustang
Then we can have a F-17 Jaguar, the world's first carrier-capable 6th generation jet fighter. Well, a man can dream...

4.5 gen + 4.5 gen is still 4.5 gen. <.>

[Barfleur]

Suggestion: F-14Z Twin Tomcat a la Twin Mustang
Then we can have a F-17 Jaguar, the world's first carrier-capable 6th generation jet fighter. Well, a man can dream...

4.5 gen + 4.5 gen is still 4.5 gen. <.>

Don't give me delusions of conquering the world at the helm of a flying supersonic submarine main battle tank with n00kz, lasers, and satellite death rays, thank you very much.

[Gallia-]

Suggestion: F-14Z Twin Tomcat a la Twin Mustang
Then we can have a F-17 Jaguar, the world's first carrier-capable 6th generation jet fighter. Well, a man can dream...

4.5 gen + 4.5 gen is still 4.5 gen. <.>

F-14 is already twin fuselage anyway.

[New Vihenia]

missed out on a crummy hangar queen that had the lowest operational rates and lowest mission capable rates of all Fleet tactical fighters?

very sad indeed

rip in piece

Well for some reason it seems to be so glorified when Soviet bomber was still considered a threat.

---
Just noticed wiki changed AIM-120D spec.. well it used to be 180 km now down to 160

[Gallia-]

missed out on a crummy hangar queen that had the lowest operational rates and lowest mission capable rates of all Fleet tactical fighters?

very sad indeed

rip in piece

Well for some reason it seems to be so glorified when Soviet bomber was still considered a threat.

---
Just noticed wiki changed AIM-120D spec.. well it used to be 180 km now down to 160

It had a very long range missile and a very powerful radar, at least until Super Hornet's AESA, showed up in the Fleet.

It was also pretty fast compared to F-8, so boomers liked flying it.

Anyway you can fix the operational rates by making brand new F-14s, but no "Super Tomcat 21" was going to be new. The idea was to take F-14D and give it a makeover with slightly bigger fuel tanks (negating the need for drop tanks, in theory), AMRAAM, AGM-65 integration, digital stores management, and replacing the old television pod with a day-night FLIR/targeting pod. It's nothing to write home about.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Well for some reason it seems to be so glorified when Soviet bomber was still considered a threat.

---
Just noticed wiki changed AIM-120D spec.. well it used to be 180 km now down to 160

It had a very long range missile and a very powerful radar, at least until Super Hornet's AESA, showed up in the Fleet.

It was also pretty fast compared to F-8, so boomers liked flying it.

Anyway you can fix the operational rates by making brand new F-14s, but no "Super Tomcat 21" was going to be new. The idea was to take F-14D and give it a makeover with slightly bigger fuel tanks (negating the need for drop tanks, in theory), AMRAAM, AGM-65 integration, digital stores management, and replacing the old television pod with a day-night FLIR/targeting pod. It's nothing to write home about.

The Tomcat was cool but it was a 1970s fighter that needed to be replaced. Granted, the F-18 isn't exactly the best fighter to be used in its place but perfect is the enemy of good enough.

[Gallia-]

That has very little to do with what I said.

F-14 would be a good fighter well into the 2030s provided you updated it enough and kept spare parts flowing. It's not like Russia or China are going to have more than maybe a hundred stealth fighters before 2050. Combined. If they do, then the USA has already lost, because it wasn't able to produce more than maybe a few hundred F-22 had it really pushed itself. The prime opponents for the first half of the 21st century for the USN are going to be crusty old Su-27s and various MiGs. F-14 has a proven combat record against these without any AESA radars or whatever, and it's not like the Chinese are able to dab on even Super Hornet with their latest J-11s.

The Israelis, Americans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, and everyone else, are going to be flying aircraft of 1970s vintage for far longer than they would all like to. Tomcat would just be another modestly upgraded tactical fighter and no worse off than F-15E or something in 2030, when the USA will be at its relative nadir to the PLAN and PLAAF, and we're not much closer to seeing the hypothesized hordes of J-XXs and Su-57s that were supposed to be here already. Given that F-35 is still moving at a glacial pace, it's likely the USAF will be flying F-15E until at least 2040, and F-15 will probably outlive F-22 as well.

Until someone replaces their entire air fleet with F-22/J-31s/Su-57s, or whatever, it's not a problem. The USN just chose Super Hornet because it was easier to gear up production for a new tactical fighter than to try to reproduce an aging fighter that had been out of production for decades. A hypothetical "Super Pussy" would just be F-18E/F against any J-11 or MiG-2X: an insurmountable obstacle on which you crash trying to fight. Likewise any Super Duper Cunt Destroyer 21XYZ 69++ would be meat for an F-22 or JSF, you know, if either of those existed in any quantity in any enemy air force I guess.

[Barfleur]

Why would F-15 and F-15E outlive the newer and better F-22? I know how slow the F35/JSF program is, but there has been some progress made. The F-15s have no stealth, whereas even China (!) and Russia (I kid, I kid) have been building stealth and "stealth" fighters respectively.

[The Manticoran Empire]

Why would F-15 and F-15E outlive the newer and better F-22? I know how slow the F35/JSF program is, but there has been some progress made. The F-15s have no stealth, whereas even China (!) and Russia (I kid, I kid) have been building stealth and "stealth" fighters respectively.

Because the F-15C and F-15E are cheaper. Stealth fighters are expensive. An F-15 squadron costs $300 million dollars to maintain compared to $470 million for a squadron of F-22s and $570 million for a squadron of F-35s. The F-16 is cheaper still, at $220 million per squadron. Source: Congressional Budget Office Report Dated July 2016

The Russians are ordering 76 Su-57s as opposed to an original peak of 214 fighters and the Chinese have less than 30 J-20 stealth fighters in service. The simple fact of stealth aircraft is that they are incredibly expensive to develop, build, and maintain. The original procurement goal for the F-22 was 750 aircraft, which would outfit 62.5 squadrons. That fleet would cost $29,375 million to maintain for a single year. The current F-22 fleet of 187 aircraft costs about $7,324 million. The planned F-35 fleet of 1,763 aircraft will cost upwards of $83,742.5 million to maintain. The current fleet of 199 F-35As costs the US $9,452.5 million. The current fleet of 451 F-15s costs the US $11,275 million while the fleet of 911 F-16s costs the US $16,701 million. So a fleet of F-15s 2.4 times larger than a fleet of F-22s costs only 54% more while a fleet of F-16s 4.6 times larger than the fleet of F-35s costs only 76% more. So from a simple standpoint of funding, a fleet of 1,362 Generation 4 fighters is overall more affordable than a fleet of 386 Generation 5 fighters. Now if we want to compare the hypothetical 750 aircraft fleet of F-22s to a hypothetical 750 aircraft fleet of F-15s, we see that the F-15s cost $18,750 million, 63.83% of the cost for the same number of F-22s. A fleet of 1,763 F-16s costs $32,321.6 million, 38.6% of the cost of the same number of F-35s.

So, long story short, the fact the F-15s and F-16s are cheaper to operate is what will allow them to last longer than the more expensive and theoretically more capable F-22s and F-35s, at least until Congress decides that the military can finally get blank checks.

[Crookfur]

Why would F-15 and F-15E outlive the newer and better F-22? I know how slow the F35/JSF program is, but there has been some progress made. The F-15s have no stealth, whereas even China (!) and Russia (I kid, I kid) have been building stealth and "stealth" fighters respectively.

The simple fact that f-15s are still production and f-22s aren't has a lot to do with it.

[Barfleur]

Why would F-15 and F-15E outlive the newer and better F-22? I know how slow the F35/JSF program is, but there has been some progress made. The F-15s have no stealth, whereas even China (!) and Russia (I kid, I kid) have been building stealth and "stealth" fighters respectively.

Because the F-15C and F-15E are cheaper. Stealth fighters are expensive. An F-15 squadron costs $300 million dollars to maintain compared to $470 million for a squadron of F-22s and $570 million for a squadron of F-35s. The F-16 is cheaper still, at $220 million per squadron. Source: Congressional Budget Office Report Dated July 2016

The Russians are ordering 76 Su-57s as opposed to an original peak of 214 fighters and the Chinese have less than 30 J-20 stealth fighters in service. The simple fact of stealth aircraft is that they are incredibly expensive to develop, build, and maintain. The original procurement goal for the F-22 was 750 aircraft, which would outfit 62.5 squadrons. That fleet would cost $29,375 million to maintain for a single year. The current F-22 fleet of 187 aircraft costs about $7,324 million. The planned F-35 fleet of 1,763 aircraft will cost upwards of $83,742.5 million to maintain. The current fleet of 199 F-35As costs the US $9,452.5 million. The current fleet of 451 F-15s costs the US $11,275 million while the fleet of 911 F-16s costs the US $16,701 million. So a fleet of F-15s 2.4 times larger than a fleet of F-22s costs only 54% more while a fleet of F-16s 4.6 times larger than the fleet of F-35s costs only 76% more. So from a simple standpoint of funding, a fleet of 1,362 Generation 4 fighters is overall more affordable than a fleet of 386 Generation 5 fighters. Now if we want to compare the hypothetical 750 aircraft fleet of F-22s to a hypothetical 750 aircraft fleet of F-15s, we see that the F-15s cost $18,750 million, 63.83% of the cost for the same number of F-22s. A fleet of 1,763 F-16s costs $32,321.6 million, 38.6% of the cost of the same number of F-35s.

So, long story short, the fact the F-15s and F-16s are cheaper to operate is what will allow them to last longer than the more expensive and theoretically more capable F-22s and F-35s, at least until Congress decides that the military can finally get blank checks.

Simple, just abolish public education and transfer all the money to the air force. Better yet, abolish all education, and train people from birth to be fighter pilots. Dropouts fly cargo.

[The Akasha Colony]

Why would F-15 and F-15E outlive the newer and better F-22? I know how slow the F35/JSF program is, but there has been some progress made. The F-15s have no stealth, whereas even China (!) and Russia (I kid, I kid) have been building stealth and "stealth" fighters respectively.

F-22's lifespan is inherently limited because it is out of production and evidently most of the tooling is gone. Sooner or later (and most likely sooner) the USAF is going to run out of spares and the only remaining option will be to slowly cannibalize the active inventory. F-15 remains in production and Boeing is still receiving enough orders to keep the lines alive, if only barely.