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The Akasha Colony
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Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Akasha Colony » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:32 am

New Chilokver wrote:Could you explain what you mean by a baseline for passive rangefinding please? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that concept.


As Crookfur explained, when two spaced receivers receive the same sensor return, it is possible to triangulate the position of the emitter if you can determine the direction the signal came from using basic trigonometry. The distance between these two sensors (or multiple sensors) is called the baseline, and generally longer baselines are preferred over shorter baselines because they create a greater angular separation between the two receivers.

As a single large sensor, the bow array has basically no baseline because it is a single unit. The multi-part flank arrays mounted along the flanks of USN boats or in a single long sensor along the side of British boats creates a longer baseline because it can be spaced out along the submarine's length. The towed array can have an even longer baseline especially if used in conjunction with the flank arrays.

The Manticoran Empire wrote:What are the pros and cons of nuclear powered cruisers and destroyers?


The primary advantages are high speed endurance and plenty of power available for use for power hungry things like a big radar.

The obvious disadvantage is the high upfront costs and high ongoing manpower costs. It's not just a matter of finding manpower either because you need trained manpower capable of operating a nuclear reactor. This wasn't as big of a disadvantage when most conventionally powered ships still used oil-fired boilers and steam turbines, but modern gas turbines and diesels require very little maintenance and very small crews to maintain. Nuclear reactors generally require at least ten men per shift per reactor to monitor, ideally more (under USN preferences). So that's like 40-50 people plus command overhead per reactor. Virginia had two reactors, so that's almost a full fifth of the crew just for the reactors, nevermind the engineers who maintain the other systems. A gas turbine system needs like ten guys total for all of the turbines because they don't need continuous monitoring, just a couple of dudes to inspect the turbines every now and again.

Other disadvantages include worse power response and acceleration than gas turbine or diesel ships which makes for a less agile ship overall and a more complicated disposal process.

Also, would it be feasible to power amphibious warfare ships (LSD, LPD, LHD, LHA) with nuclear reactors and what costs and benefits could be seen?


Not really. Amphibious ships don't really need high-endurance sprint capability, nor are they operating giant radars. They shouldn't be showing up until the seas are already cleared. The USN doesn't even see fit to give them 30+ knot speed with regular gas turbines, which it still gives to non-nuclear destroyers and cruisers.

Post War America wrote:I'm sure someone can deliver a more comprehensive answer to the question but I'm gonna attempt a crack at it too. The big benefit of nuclear powered vessels is the theoretically unlimited range, which enables much greater power projection capability, especially if one is on the shared NS earth which is bloody enormous. While you would obviously need to resupply the vessel with food, spare parts and other essentials over the course of a long duration mission, but you don't also need to worry about carting over fuel if the ships are nuclear powered. There is a reason why the USN's carrier and submarine fleets rely on nuclear powered vessels after all.


Unlimited range isn't all that unlimited. It doesn't even really need to be that unlimited given that the US has bases and a network of allies across the globe.

The biggest benefit for surface ships is significantly improved sprint endurance. Which allows a fleet to rapidly converge on a trouble spot without depleting its entire fuel supply along the way.

The biggest advantage for submarines is obviously that it allows for much longer periods of submersion and for much greater available power to the boat. The latter is not an issue for surface ships because they can use gas turbines or diesels to produce huge amounts of power, but this requires oxygen for combustion so submarines must rely on batteries, onboard oxygen reserves (the basic principle of AIP), or nuclear power.
Last edited by The Akasha Colony on Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:54 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
New Chilokver wrote:Could you explain what you mean by a baseline for passive rangefinding please? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that concept.


As Crookfur explained, when two spaced receivers receive the same sensor return, it is possible to triangulate the position of the emitter if you can determine the direction the signal came from using basic trigonometry. The distance between these two sensors (or multiple sensors) is called the baseline, and generally longer baselines are preferred over shorter baselines because they create a greater angular separation between the two receivers.

As a single large sensor, the bow array has basically no baseline because it is a single unit. The multi-part flank arrays mounted along the flanks of USN boats or in a single long sensor along the side of British boats creates a longer baseline because it can be spaced out along the submarine's length. The towed array can have an even longer baseline especially if used in conjunction with the flank arrays.

The Manticoran Empire wrote:What are the pros and cons of nuclear powered cruisers and destroyers?


The primary advantages are high speed endurance and plenty of power available for use for power hungry things like a big radar.

The obvious disadvantage is the high upfront costs and high ongoing manpower costs. It's not just a matter of finding manpower either because you need trained manpower capable of operating a nuclear reactor. This wasn't as big of a disadvantage when most conventionally powered ships still used oil-fired boilers and steam turbines, but modern gas turbines and diesels require very little maintenance and very small crews to maintain. Nuclear reactors generally require at least ten men per shift per reactor to monitor, ideally more (under USN preferences). So that's like 40-50 people plus command overhead per reactor. Virginia had two reactors, so that's almost a full fifth of the crew just for the reactors, nevermind the engineers who maintain the other systems. A gas turbine system needs like ten guys total for all of the turbines because they don't need continuous monitoring, just a couple of dudes to inspect the turbines every now and again.

Other disadvantages include worse power response and acceleration than gas turbine or diesel ships which makes for a less agile ship overall and a more complicated disposal process.

Also, would it be feasible to power amphibious warfare ships (LSD, LPD, LHD, LHA) with nuclear reactors and what costs and benefits could be seen?


Not really. Amphibious ships don't really need high-endurance sprint capability, nor are they operating giant radars. They shouldn't be showing up until the seas are already cleared. The USN doesn't even see fit to give them 30+ knot speed with regular gas turbines, which it still gives to non-nuclear destroyers and cruisers.

Post War America wrote:I'm sure someone can deliver a more comprehensive answer to the question but I'm gonna attempt a crack at it too. The big benefit of nuclear powered vessels is the theoretically unlimited range, which enables much greater power projection capability, especially if one is on the shared NS earth which is bloody enormous. While you would obviously need to resupply the vessel with food, spare parts and other essentials over the course of a long duration mission, but you don't also need to worry about carting over fuel if the ships are nuclear powered. There is a reason why the USN's carrier and submarine fleets rely on nuclear powered vessels after all.


Unlimited range isn't all that unlimited. It doesn't even really need to be that unlimited given that the US has bases and a network of allies across the globe.

The biggest benefit for surface ships is significantly improved sprint endurance. Which allows a fleet to rapidly converge on a trouble spot without depleting its entire fuel supply along the way.

The biggest advantage for submarines is obviously that it allows for much longer periods of submersion and for much greater available power to the boat. The latter is not an issue for surface ships because they can use gas turbines or diesels to produce huge amounts of power, but this requires oxygen for combustion so submarines must rely on batteries, onboard oxygen reserves (the basic principle of AIP), or nuclear power.

Would nuclear cruisers and destroyers be worth the added expense?
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Connori Pilgrims
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Postby Connori Pilgrims » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:11 am

The Manticoran Empire wrote:Would nuclear cruisers and destroyers be worth the added expense?


Depends.

Do you value your nuclear carrier battlegroups running more or less uniformly at 30kts for extended periods?

Do you really like NEED that much electrical power?

Are you fine with having slightly larger crews than average compared to less expenses on oil fuel (so basically are you ok with paying for people rather than gas)?
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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:13 am

Connori Pilgrims wrote:
The Manticoran Empire wrote:Would nuclear cruisers and destroyers be worth the added expense?


Depends.

Do you value your nuclear carrier battlegroups running more or less uniformly at 30kts for extended periods?

Do you really like NEED that much electrical power?

Are you fine with having slightly larger crews than average compared to less expenses on oil fuel (so basically are you ok with paying for people rather than gas)?

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.
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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:06 pm

The Manticoran Empire wrote:Yes.


The important question is always how much you value it, keeping in mind that unless you're a navy-controlled military dictatorship, the funding allocations will not be controlled by the navy itself. Not only must such a program get past the lawmakers, it must also win out over other priorities both from other branches and even within the navy itself. One of the issues the USN was always dogged with was simply finding enough volunteers to get nuke training as the expanding nuclear submarine fleet was putting a huge pressure on nuclear engineer recruitment. A large nuclear surface fleet is only going to make this much worse.

But none of us are your government so none of us can answer the subjective question of value.

Yes.


The real answer is probably no, actually. A normal cruiser or destroyer doesn't consume enough power from its radar and combat systems to make a huge difference. Especially since most of the time these radars will not be operating at full power and will probably be off to avoid detection. Something like SPY-1 or SPY-3 doesn't justify a nuclear reactor.

You'd need something huge like a ballistic missile defense radar on par with a large ground installation. A BMD radar would also be running more often, but you wouldn't have very many of these ships.

Yes.


By "slightly larger" he means 50% larger, with a good percentage of them being nuclear engineers.
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Khazadharamistan
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Postby Khazadharamistan » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:16 pm

Why do navies such as the USN place such emphasis on a powerful 360 degree phased radar for their destroyers when the radar horizon exists, and said destroyers are reliant on AEW to see over it?

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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:26 pm

Khazadharamistan wrote:Why do navies such as the USN place such emphasis on a powerful 360 degree phased radar for their destroyers when the radar horizon exists, and said destroyers are reliant on AEW to see over it?

Because the destroyer's mission is air defense and anti-submarine warfare and air threats can come from any direction.
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The Corparation
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Postby The Corparation » Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:28 pm

Khazadharamistan wrote:Why do navies such as the USN place such emphasis on a powerful 360 degree phased radar for their destroyers when the radar horizon exists, and said destroyers are reliant on AEW to see over it?

Because they want to see out to the radar horizon in every direction?
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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:57 pm

Khazadharamistan wrote:Why do navies such as the USN place such emphasis on a powerful 360 degree phased radar for their destroyers when the radar horizon exists, and said destroyers are reliant on AEW to see over it?


Because there are plenty of threats that aren't sea-skimming?

The horizon only matters for very low-altitude targets. But low altitude flying is very taxing on airframes, requires much greater fuel consumption, and the higher drag limits speed significantly. So it is hardly universal.

On top of this, the radar horizon cuts both ways. An attacking aircraft or missile will be equally blind at low altitude unless guided on target by an asset flying at a higher altitude with longer lines of sight. But this asset is then vulnerable to being detected by the surface warship using its own radar, and possibly shot down by its missile batteries.
Last edited by The Akasha Colony on Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Happsborough
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Postby Happsborough » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:07 pm

Happsborough uses a wide range of ships. For colonial or "easier" wars where missile cruisers and such aren't used, pre-dreadnought battleships are used. Many resemble things like the USS Olympia. We also make liberal use of U-boats and other submersibles, for a multitude of jobs during wartime.
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The Manticoran Empire
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Postby The Manticoran Empire » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:11 pm

Happsborough wrote:Happsborough uses a wide range of ships. For colonial or "easier" wars where missile cruisers and such aren't used, pre-dreadnought battleships are used. Many resemble things like the USS Olympia. We also make liberal use of U-boats and other submersibles, for a multitude of jobs during wartime.

Battleships? How have those things not be rendered wholly obsolete by missile technology?
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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:01 pm

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Post War America
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Postby Post War America » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:09 pm

Happsborough wrote:Happsborough uses a wide range of ships. For colonial or "easier" wars where missile cruisers and such aren't used, pre-dreadnought battleships are used. Many resemble things like the USS Olympia. We also make liberal use of U-boats and other submersibles, for a multitude of jobs during wartime.

...Please tell me this is a PT navy. I mean seriously, Pre-Dreadnoughts? That'd be horribly dated by the standards of Washington Treaty Era navies nevermind modern ones.
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United Earthlings
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Postby United Earthlings » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:33 pm

Post War America wrote:
Happsborough wrote:Happsborough uses a wide range of ships. For colonial or "easier" wars where missile cruisers and such aren't used, pre-dreadnought battleships are used. Many resemble things like the USS Olympia. We also make liberal use of U-boats and other submersibles, for a multitude of jobs during wartime.

...Please tell me this is a PT navy. I mean seriously, Pre-Dreadnoughts? That'd be horribly dated by the standards of Washington Treaty Era navies nevermind modern ones.


Well to be fair to Happs, even though they didn't explicitly state it as such, as long as a vessel is seaworthy it can remain a long time in service. Furthermore, vessels can be reconfigured and converted, so in that regard a late pre-dreadnought still in service in the 1930/1940s could have its main guns removed and replaced by cruiser size guns of the 6 to 8 inch size while at the same time undergoing a refit to have its propulsion machinery updated. That’s just one of many conversions that could take place. Happs did say these ships resemble the USS Olympia which was a protected cruiser, so converting {and thereby reclassifing} a Pre-Dreadnought into a heavy cruiser isn't completely impossible, just generally not the most cost-effective option to pursue.

In addition, if you check Happs factbook, they specifically state they use a mix of American and German technology from World II to the 1970s. Many warships built by the various powers in the 1930s and 1940s were still in operational service well into the 1970s and 1980s.

So, yeah while I agree that at first glance seeing someone still has Pre-Dreadnoughts in service, it is reflective to scream a giant NO!, I'm willing to give Happs a little leeway and the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise, say by saying, oh yeah I still use Pre-Dreadnoughts as originally built that are not museums and the year is 2018.

So, in closing, yes I would say Happs is using a PT or a somewhat PT navy until provided with evidence that indicates otherwise.
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Kassaran
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Postby Kassaran » Sat Dec 15, 2018 12:56 am

I need some help beginning to develop steam turbine powered warships that would have been present around the turn of the century... what was that one program that did that with the right numbers?
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Postby Pan-Asiatic States » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:34 am

wh-what about airships *gulps*

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    The Pan-Asiatic Aerial Vanguard Division (AeroGuard)
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    The AeroGuard is an irregular Pan-Asiatic division subtrahend to the Air Force consisting of aerial behemoths, or airships, powered by Sakuradite to carry Sentinels, Paratroopers, and Airplanes over great distances and long periods of time. In the year 2099, they are each equipped with Aetherium Combustion-Thrusters which allow orbital travel in and around resident space stations.

    A.A.V is an acronym for Asiatic Aerial Vanguard.






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  • Aerial Corvette
  • 6,000 tons
  • 110 meters x 15.9 meters
  • Mitsubishi V5 Tri-Propulsion Drive
  • Slash Harken Harpoon-Armed
  • Toromo Laser Artillery, 5000m Gun Radius

    Feng Ltd. Model A: Equipped with a Blaze Luminous Forcefield (5 Hours)
    Gloucester Model B: Equipped with 3 20x20 meter escape pods

With a namesake derived from the ancient Visayan headhunter warrior-caste, the Bagani-Class offers stunningly maneuverable controls and high velocity at the cost of low carrying capacity and below-average armor. Unlike conventional aerial behemoths, it runs on a Tri-Propulsion Drive that consumes five times as much Sakuradite energy when in maximum acceleration.


Image

  • Artillery Battlecruiser
  • 3,560 tons
  • 500 meters x 20.21 meters
  • Yggdrasil Float Drive
  • Blaze Luminous Forcefield (8-10 Hours)
  • Circuit Coolant System
  • Focused Hadron Sakuradite Canon, EMP Phoenix Canon; 9000m Gun Radius

    Zuiying Model A: Armed with extended Zuiying V3 Hadron Canon (13000m)

Taken from the name for the Bamboo Cannons used by the indigenous Austronesian Trading-Kingdoms to fend-off invaders and bandits during the 11th-12th Century C.E, the Lantaka-Class is unique insofar that is not armed by conventional weaponry at all. It is carried by a specially commissioned Yggdrasil Float Drive, used by Aerial Sentinels for basic propulsion. It is also equipped with a Blaze Luminous Force Field that wards off bullets and solid matter for a short period of time, which also immobilizes its main gun from firing. The Lantaka's only weapon, a giant Hadron Canon, exists to dematerialize matter through nuclear fission of Hadron quarks, protons, electrons, and neutrons released by a strong explosion of raw Sakuradite. It is also armed with four smaller canons on each side, Phoenix Canons which discharge short bursts of Electromagnetic Pulse.


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  • Destroyer
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  • 4500 meters x 400 meters
  • Feng Ltd. MagLev Float Drive
  • Energy Filler Drive (500 Hours)
  • Blaze Luminous Forcefield (3 Hours)
  • Central Coolant System
  • Slash Harken Harpoon-Armed
  • Toromo Scatter Plasma Beam, EMP Phoenix Canon; 1000m Gun Radius
  • 20 Ballistic Missiles

As the Kingdom of Namayan (modern-day Sta. Ana, Manila) was ruthless and bloated in its pursuit for prosperity, the Namayan-class is the first and foremost escort-behemoth of the AeroGuard Fleet. The paradigm employed by the doctrine instilled by its creators is to fly at low altitudes and wreak havoc by proximity. This makes the Namayan an excellent choice for invading urban metropolises and rural jungles. It is equipped with 4 Scatter Beams on both sides, as well as Machine Guns to protect its soft underbelly. The 180-degree main gun in front launches heatseeker ballistic missiles at both a low angle of depression to suppress armored enemy vehicles, and a high one to retaliate against enemy bombers. The exposed topside is compensated by the Namayan's generally well-built alloy framework.


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  • Carrier-Flagship
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  • Feng Ltd. MagLev Float Drive
  • Energy Filler Drive (1000 Hours)
  • Aetherium Alloys; Blaze Luminous Forcefield (10 Hours)
  • Central Coolant System
  • Slash Harken Harpoon-Armed (12, 6 on each side)
  • Toromo Scatter Plasma Beam, EMP Phoenix Canon, MG-55 Indigenous Machine Gun; 800m Gun Radius

The Tigmamanukan- the omen bird of the South; called upon by ladies of fate (Babaylan) to warn others of discontinuing their actions. Its name is as much propaganda as its magnitude of intimidation in terms of battlefield performance. As the largest ship of the AeroGuard Fleet, the Tigmamanukan-Class is responsible for the mass aerial deployment of smaller units; such as Mordred Sentinels and Airplanes during the encounters of a company. As a flagship, it is also usually the place of command and residence of an Air Force General during an invasion.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:59 pm

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/spain’s-billion-dollar-ethanol-powered-s-80-super-submarines-are-too-big-fit-their-docks
Meanwhile in Espana...
>125 tons overweight
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Redesign...
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New Vihenia
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Founded: Apr 03, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby New Vihenia » Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:40 am

Moving this to a better place.

A side product from my corvette WIP's. This spreadsheet allows simplified estimate on required power to achieve speed. This is basically why my corvette needs 2 Gas turbine engines and 2 diesels to achieve 30 knot.

The assumption in this spreadsheet is as follows :
-Waterline length is 90% of the overall length.
-Application of bulbous bow (you can pick whether to incorporate it or not) reduces 5% of overall drag.
-The ship's drag component is spread equally between friction and residual wave making drag (50% Cf and 50% others).
-Calculation of friction drag coefficient is based on natural hull speed and waterline length.

The wetted area estimates may under or over predict the wetted area by about 7% i choose not to make any arrangement in the coefficient used as i haven't made any real measurement on real warship's wetted area (to do that i have to model the ship's hull on the waterline and calculate the surface area, easy but kinda daunting task as not all warships have good drawings).

As a result some real world warship may look under powered for its maximum speed. In the spreadsheet within the download link is the Arleigh Burke Flt II. specification. The sheet may suggest that she can only run 27 Knot. Despite being stated that her speed is over 30 knot.

Screenshot :3
General interface :
https://sta.sh/0hhv7l5bdta

It also feature curve
https://sta.sh/0qrctxvvm9f

Download section.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vOavO ... 1oKtAUA8GP
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Kassaran
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Founded: Jun 16, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kassaran » Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:01 pm

Alright folks, well I'm starting to enter the period of iron-hulled naval steamships in my regional RP as China. Thanks to a series of fortuitous rolls, I've got something of a decent contemporary torpedo design circa 1892. I'm guessing this means something like Whitehead Mk 3?
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bloody hell, mate.
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Danternoust
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Founded: Jan 20, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Danternoust » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:06 am

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Memes aside, what can be done to minimise the noise output of a 100,000 ton submarine?


All of the things that would be done on a smaller submarine.

There's no particular reason a 100,000 ton submarine would be loud. If anything, such a large ship would have an absurd amount of space for rafting and quieting measures.

I'll be using 100,000 tonne submarines for shipping.

Bad idea?

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New Vihenia
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Founded: Apr 03, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby New Vihenia » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:45 am

Danternoust wrote:I'll be using 100,000 tonne submarines for shipping.

Bad idea?


sure why not. That's what people think in 1960-1970's. Because you may only contend with friction drag instead of both friction and wavemaking. Opening chance for increasing speed but with reduced cost that can come from smaller nuclear reactor for required speed.

Water tight compartment tho would be challenge.
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Danternoust
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Founded: Jan 20, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Danternoust » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:38 am

Gallia- wrote:surfaced stability would make container loading/unloading annoying

I'll only use it for bulk cargo, maybe to evade blockades and supply a side in a war.


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