Your Nation's Warships, Batch 3

[Rich and Corporations]

Relatedly, if I have submersible carriers, do I even need surface combatants? And if I don't, what's a good upper limit for what percent of one's navy can and should be subs?

1) A submersible carrier will never be able to fulfill the same role as a surface carrier. At least not without spending all of its time on the surface, which defeats the purpose of making it submersible.
2) Submarines good at 2 things. Being Sneaky and killing surface (Land and sea) targets. You will still need surface combatants for everything else.
3) There's no easy way to tale a given % and say this is the optimal number of subs. It depends entirely on what you want/need to do.

in response to this, I say:

in nationstates scale nations send fleets across an ocean twice the length of the Pacific
transporting across such distances may even merit transport submarines, and special forces submarines with hangars

it is a unique situation not comparable with the real world, far more constrained by resources and with shorter distances

is it worth a billion dollar submarine to launch an aircraft to support a commando raid or to use an electro optical missile to hit a key transport hub when all GPS communications are being jammed as a result of wartime requirements?

keep in mind that the US was worried about Panama in WWII.

---

is the consensus that due to CIWS, ships will primarily have gunnery duels? I think I asked about that observation after playing Wargame Red Dragon.

unless missiles with chaff are used to jam radars beforehand

edit: nvm, I just thought of missiles that fly as fast as shells at the muzzle with APHE warheads

[North Arkana]

CIWS is a last ditch "everything else has failed" system. If you're relying on it, you've already lost the missile fight.

[Connori Pilgrims]

W:RD, while a fun game that I still play from time to time when there are enough pubs to play with, is not a particularly accurate representation of naval combat.

And there isn’t any consensus on what kind of anti ship missiles are best. Either slow n stealthy (like what da West is doing) or gotta go fast (what Russia and India are doing) seem viable really.

[The Pacifican Islands]

Hi guys,

I'm designing a destroyer sized fleet escort. I want it to fulfill both ASW and AAW roles, in both layers of a CBG. Is this possible? Do I need two ships for the two roles? And what do I need to include in the design?

[The Akasha Colony]

Hi guys,

I'm designing a destroyer sized fleet escort. I want it to fulfill both ASW and AAW roles, in both layers of a CBG. Is this possible? Do I need two ships for the two roles? And what do I need to include in the design?

It's possible. But it's probably a bit more efficient to design them separately, because they won't likely be doing both at the same time. So while a single ship would be able to easily switch between roles easily, it wouldn't do both at the same time since ASW work usually involves lots of slow, quiet sailing while towing a sonar line and supporting a helicopter, while AAW escort of the fleet at large requires higher speed steaming to keep up with the valuable assets like the carrier.

[The Pacifican Islands]

Hi guys,

I'm designing a destroyer sized fleet escort. I want it to fulfill both ASW and AAW roles, in both layers of a CBG. Is this possible? Do I need two ships for the two roles? And what do I need to include in the design?

It's possible. But it's probably a bit more efficient to design them separately, because they won't likely be doing both at the same time. So while a single ship would be able to easily switch between roles easily, it wouldn't do both at the same time since ASW work usually involves lots of slow, quiet sailing while towing a sonar line and supporting a helicopter, while AAW escort of the fleet at large requires higher speed steaming to keep up with the valuable assets like the carrier.

Could I have one baseline design with two subclasses that have varied weapons and sensors according to its role? And if so, what weapons and sensors do I need?

And can this ship also operate in limited ASuW or independent operations?

[The Akasha Colony]

Could I have one baseline design with two subclasses that have varied weapons and sensors according to its role? And if so, what weapons and sensors do I need?

It's possible, although most AAW ships would make for very large ASW ships. Type 26 is massive as ASW frigates go and is just barely creeping into the same size range as Type 45, which is over a decade older. ASW equipment doesn't really take up that much space compared to AAW equipment.

If you want to know what you need, just look at IRL ASW and AAW ships like Type 26 and Type 45.

ASW ships need sonar (towed and hull-mounted), spacious helicopter facilities, and torpedo launching capability (via ASROC and/or SVTTs). They don't need anything more than basic self-defense AAW capability.

AAW ships need big radars and space for a VLS with several dozen missiles. They need space for a helicopter pad but don't need very spacious facilities for them.

[The Pacifican Islands]

Could I have one baseline design with two subclasses that have varied weapons and sensors according to its role? And if so, what weapons and sensors do I need?

It's possible, although most AAW ships would make for very large ASW ships. Type 26 is massive as ASW frigates go and is just barely creeping into the same size range as Type 45, which is over a decade older. ASW equipment doesn't really take up that much space compared to AAW equipment.

If you want to know what you need, just look at IRL ASW and AAW ships like Type 26 and Type 45.

ASW ships need sonar (towed and hull-mounted), spacious helicopter facilities, and torpedo launching capability (via ASROC and/or SVTTs). They don't need anything more than basic self-defense AAW capability.

AAW ships need big radars and space for a VLS with several dozen missiles. They need space for a helicopter pad but don't need very spacious facilities for them.

Thank you. I've decided to make the destroyer an AA warship. With the ever increasing threats of smaller nations and terrorists, how could I make this warship operable in independent roles?

[Laritaia]

Thank you. I've decided to make the destroyer an AA warship. With the ever increasing threats of smaller nations and terrorists, how could I make this warship operable in independent roles?

for independent cruising you're gonna want a higher then normal stock of consumables, higher then normal supply of petty cash, and a reasonably sized embarked marine detachment.

[The Pacifican Islands]

Made this:


Full size

Pacifican Surface Combatant - DDG
Sensors
1x air search radar
1x SAMPSON like targeting radar
1x AESA radar

Armament
80x VLS cells
4x box launchers for stealth cruise missiles
2x 30mm CIWS
1x 76mm STRALES

Aviation
1x NH90 like helicopter

The missiles don't match the radars IRL, but it works as my nation manufactures all of the stuff above. Regional RP issues, nobody to import from.

I'm rather unacquainted with many parts of ship design, and I know I'm missing lifeboats, small craft, and others bits. I'm aiming for realism. Please rip into this, politely.

Also, I'm not sure what small craft/decoy to use. Any suggestions? I'm thinking a CB90 and a series of Chemring Centurions. Also the name. Suggestions?

EDIT: Crap, I reversed the credit line. It's supposed to be (Blackbuck, The Pacifican Islands) will change that later.

[The Akasha Colony]

I'm rather unacquainted with many parts of ship design, and I know I'm missing lifeboats, small craft, and others bits. I'm aiming for realism. Please rip into this, politely.

Also, I'm not sure what small craft/decoy to use. Any suggestions? I'm thinking a CB90 and a series of Chemring Centurions. Also the name. Suggestions?

EDIT: Crap, I reversed the credit line. It's supposed to be (Blackbuck, The Pacifican Islands) will change that later.

CB90 is excessive. All a ship of this size and role needs are a few RHIBs. It won't be doing much with small boats so it doesn't need big ones like CB90. Centurion is fine, it doesn't matter what sort of launcher you use so much as what sort of countermeasures are available.

Lifeboats wouldn't necessarily be visible since they'd likely be water-activated liferafts stored in sealed canisters rather than enclosed lifeboats as in passenger liners or merchant ships. They could very easily be stored behind the rails and fairings.

The large number of box launchers is probably unnecessary. If they're new ones they should be VLS capable, in which case you can just add a few more VLS cells and launch them from there, conserving deck space.

[Crookfur]

Made this:

(Image)
Full size

Pacifican Surface Combatant - DDG
Sensors
1x air search radar
1x SAMPSON like targeting radar
1x AESA radar

Armament
80x VLS cells
4x box launchers for stealth cruise missiles
2x 30mm CIWS
1x 76mm STRALES

Aviation
1x NH90 like helicopter

The missiles don't match the radars IRL, but it works as my nation manufactures all of the stuff above. Regional RP issues, nobody to import from.

I'm rather unacquainted with many parts of ship design, and I know I'm missing lifeboats, small craft, and others bits. I'm aiming for realism. Please rip into this, politely.

Also, I'm not sure what small craft/decoy to use. Any suggestions? I'm thinking a CB90 and a series of Chemring Centurions. Also the name. Suggestions?

EDIT: Crap, I reversed the credit line. It's supposed to be (Blackbuck, The Pacifican Islands) will change that later.

The radar fit could do with a bit of explaining, chiefly in regard to what the 3rd radar system is for. Sampson is a full on multi function radar (and it is an ASEA system, it just uses 2 rotating panels to save a bit if weight so it can be mounted higher) that can literally do just about anything. A big VSR like 1850M help as it takes a good bit of the strain off sampson by doing the search work. The only thing a third fixed panel AESA system could possibly be useful would be for providing illumination for the standard series missiles and similar semi active radar guided weapons...

[Kassaran]

What would be the ideal cannon configuration on an 1830's Chinese bǎochuán and were bǎochuán able to undergo ocean travel?

[The Pacifican Islands]

I'm rather unacquainted with many parts of ship design, and I know I'm missing lifeboats, small craft, and others bits. I'm aiming for realism. Please rip into this, politely.

Also, I'm not sure what small craft/decoy to use. Any suggestions? I'm thinking a CB90 and a series of Chemring Centurions. Also the name. Suggestions?

EDIT: Crap, I reversed the credit line. It's supposed to be (Blackbuck, The Pacifican Islands) will change that later.

CB90 is excessive. All a ship of this size and role needs are a few RHIBs. It won't be doing much with small boats so it doesn't need big ones like CB90. Centurion is fine, it doesn't matter what sort of launcher you use so much as what sort of countermeasures are available.

Lifeboats wouldn't necessarily be visible since they'd likely be water-activated liferafts stored in sealed canisters rather than enclosed lifeboats as in passenger liners or merchant ships. They could very easily be stored behind the rails and fairings.

The large number of box launchers is probably unnecessary. If they're new ones they should be VLS capable, in which case you can just add a few more VLS cells and launch them from there, conserving deck space.

Thanks!

Made this:

(Image)
Full size

Pacifican Surface Combatant - DDG
Sensors
1x air search radar
1x SAMPSON like targeting radar
1x AESA radar

Armament
80x VLS cells
4x box launchers for stealth cruise missiles
2x 30mm CIWS
1x 76mm STRALES

Aviation
1x NH90 like helicopter

The missiles don't match the radars IRL, but it works as my nation manufactures all of the stuff above. Regional RP issues, nobody to import from.

I'm rather unacquainted with many parts of ship design, and I know I'm missing lifeboats, small craft, and others bits. I'm aiming for realism. Please rip into this, politely.

Also, I'm not sure what small craft/decoy to use. Any suggestions? I'm thinking a CB90 and a series of Chemring Centurions. Also the name. Suggestions?

EDIT: Crap, I reversed the credit line. It's supposed to be (Blackbuck, The Pacifican Islands) will change that later.

The radar fit could do with a bit of explaining, chiefly in regard to what the 3rd radar system is for. Sampson is a full on multi function radar (and it is an ASEA system, it just uses 2 rotating panels to save a bit if weight so it can be mounted higher) that can literally do just about anything. A big VSR like 1850M help as it takes a good bit of the strain off sampson by doing the search work. The only thing a third fixed panel AESA system could possibly be useful would be for providing illumination for the standard series missiles and similar semi active radar guided weapons...

Correct me if I'm wrong. My probable strategic opponent will use swarm missile tactics against my navy, and that this would allow me to target more inbounds.

Should I remove it and replace with Sampson?

[The Akasha Colony]

Correct me if I'm wrong. My probable strategic opponent will use swarm missile tactics against my navy, and that this would allow me to target more inbounds.

Should I remove it and replace with Sampson?

You already seem to have SAMPSON. Or EMPAR, but they're pretty similar anyway. That's what the spherical dome at the top of your main mast is, or did you intend to make it something else?

It's complex and a waste of money to use two different radar sets for the same role. If you need to track more targets at once then it is more efficient and cost effective to just make one of those two sets larger and eliminate the other. So either the APAR panels on the mast or the rotating EMPAR/SAMPSON array are superfluous.

[The Pacifican Islands]

Correct me if I'm wrong. My probable strategic opponent will use swarm missile tactics against my navy, and that this would allow me to target more inbounds.

Should I remove it and replace with Sampson?

You already seem to have SAMPSON. Or EMPAR, but they're pretty similar anyway. That's what the spherical dome at the top of your main mast is, or did you intend to make it something else?

It's complex and a waste of money to use two different radar sets for the same role. If you need to track more targets at once then it is more efficient and cost effective to just make one of those two sets larger and eliminate the other. So either the APAR panels on the mast or the rotating EMPAR/SAMPSON array are superfluous.

Full size

I've changed it and added a SAMPSON (probably going to edit it in the final so I can say it's a domestic design) I'm still concerned with swarm attacks. Would that be sufficient?

Also: what else do I need for the ship? I've been considering to change the 76mm to a 127mm, for land attack or something, but it's an air defence destroyer so I'm not sure. Also, do I need the front CIWS? The Burke doesn't have it. Should I switch it out the remaining CIWS for a RAM or something?

[Rustyal]

It is time to insert the offspring of megalomania, autism, and wet dreams in the form of a ship.



I present, Empress Catherine.

~920,000 tons [can't remember the exact number, too lazy to bring it up]
32 knots [900,000 horsepower + waterjets]
Operational range of 25,000 NM at 15 knots.
Crew complement of ~8,000 [MagLev operated turrets]
2035 feet long.
278 feet wide, 308 feet at the torpedo bulge
83 foot draft.
60 foot freeboard.

Armament
4 x 3 91.4/60 cm guns
12 x 3 30.5/52 cm guns
54 x 3 15.2/62 cm guns [not pictured]
So many quad mount 37s that I can't remember the number. [not pictured]
Around 15 scout planes [that dual purpose as fighters].
A literal mini orchestra.

Armor
The weakest it gets is 12 inches on the hull, up to 48 inches.
Deck armor ranges from 12-24.
Turret armor ranges from 80-20 [40 on the barbettes]
15 inches on the torpedo bulge, 6 inches on the bulkheads.

Note: I already know how flawed it is in every way, including the sheer concept of even considering to produce it. I just wanted to share my art and megalomania.

[The Akasha Colony]

I've changed it and added a SAMPSON (probably going to edit it in the final so I can say it's a domestic design) I'm still concerned with swarm attacks. Would that be sufficient?

Swarm attacks are a hugely overrated threat in NS. They are neither as likely nor as deadly as presumed. One of the biggest reasons is that swarms are very vulnerable to electronic warfare and decoys, which are not limited to "one shot, one kill" interception. A single decoy can seduce multiple missiles simultaneously, possibly even the entire swarm.

And at the end of the day, there's only so much that a ship can be expected to deal with before it simply becomes better to add more ships rather than trying to cram more equipment into a single ship.

Also: what else do I need for the ship? I've been considering to change the 76mm to a 127mm, for land attack or something, but it's an air defence destroyer so I'm not sure. Also, do I need the front CIWS? The Burke doesn't have it. Should I switch it out the remaining CIWS for a RAM or something?

76 mm is a more useful weapon especially if it is equipped for something like Strales. Burke does have a front CIWS, it's normally mounted on that platform just in front of the bridge. You can see the Phalanx dome in this image, for instance.

RAM is probably better than Phalanx though, so it may be worth switching one of them out for a RAM launcher.

[Rich and Corporations]

I just wanted to share my art and megalomania.

armor it against davy crocket nukes

[Lamoni]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alistair_Greig/publication/237308846_Hybrid_nuclearfuel-cell_submarine/links/544e2cd30cf2bca5ce8ef1ad/Hybrid-nuclear-fuel-cell-submarine.pdf

How much practical utility do you guys think that a hybrid nuclear/fuel cell submarine would have?

[The Corparation]

I don't see the point. What advantages is this supposed to bring?

[Lamoni]

The author of the paper is of the opinion that you could shut down the reactor, and run the sub on the AIP system for at least a week, thereby making the submarine quieter while on patrol.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The author of the paper is of the opinion that you could shut down the reactor, and run the sub on the AIP system for at least a week, thereby making the submarine quieter while on patrol.

Until the moment you need to gtfo fast and suddenly battery goes dead five minutes into the run. <.<

[The Akasha Colony]

The author of the paper is of the opinion that you could shut down the reactor, and run the sub on the AIP system for at least a week, thereby making the submarine quieter while on patrol.

Modern nuclear submarines are already so quiet they are nearly impossible to detect. The same as diesel-electrics. The gap was largely closed with the development of natural circulation reactors anyway. I'm not sure why the myth continues to persist that diesel-electrics are appreciably quieter than nuclear submarines. If they were so much quieter, we'd see a lot fewer nuclear submarines. And yet clearly all of the major powers have been sufficiently satisfied by the quietness of their nuclear boats to have always chosen nuclear when forced to operate only nuclear or diesel-electrics.

They are both so quiet that passive sonar will not reliably detect them even at fairly short ranges, which means there is no particular benefit to making the submarine even quieter given the expense and compromises involved. Nuclear submarines can already take advantage of plenty of quieting techniques that diesel-electric boats cannot on account of their much greater power, which allows for more volume. Quieting requires volume and nuclear boats can have this in spades without losing submerged endurance or speed from their larger wetted surface.

If Pharthan were still around he'd probably chime in to point out that shutting down and restarting a nuclear reactor is not a quick or routine process, and even when shut down there is still residual heat generation requiring at least some flow of water and expulsion of heat. The author acknowledges this, but seems to brush it aside by simply saying "It'd require a new nuclear reactor." Even though nuclear reactors are by far the most expensive part of a new submarine class. I'm not sure if the author is unaware of the use of natural circulation reactors since the 1960s and that these reactors can even provide moderate amounts of power in this state, obviating the need to bring them all the way down to standby mode. And if shut down, bringing the reactor online would still be a longer process, reducing the submarine's ability to react quickly to situations demanding more speed than the fuel cells can provide.

[Rich and Corporations]

People should try to cite more sources.

See Table A3 on the below link:
https://fas.org/spp/eprint/snf03222.htm

modern passive sonar could detect WWII era subs or narco subs for hundreds of KM in favorable weather.

As one can see, cheaping out on acoustic dampening is advantageous for coastal defense only subs which probably are no longer useful.