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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:10 pm

Allanea wrote:On the other hand - and I don't know if this is true or not - as we all know , the sortie generation rate of an aircraft carrier drops precipitously after the first 1-2 days of operation due to ground crew, pilot and airframe fatigue. Would a larger carrier (perhaps a slightly larger carrier, rather than a 650,000 monster) be able to push high sortie rates for, say, a day or two longer due to having more spare pilots and crews, or better facilities?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_ ... Royal_Navy

It was a thing in WW2, when carriers were smol, planes were smoller, and you could flatpack aircraft and assemble them in reasonable timeframes. Nowadays, if your aircraft is fatigued it's out of the fight until it sees a shore depot anyway. You can't put this in a boat: http://aviationhumor.net/wp-content/upl ... uction.jpg

Which is essentially what depot carriers were: Aircraft factories at sea. They were made obsolete because anything that can be performed in-situ can already be done on an attack carrier of ~100,000-120,000 tons. Anything more means your pilots are dead or captured and your planes are glorified scrap or need to be sent back to the factory for repair/replacement.

Simple surge loading does everything you want. A Nimitz can sustain about 5-7 days of high intensity combat before running out of ammunition and fuel, when augmented sufficiently with surplus personnel.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/72o3l1lt4v775 ... .pdf?raw=1

You don't really need any more than 700-800 sorties a week anyway. The maximum sustained sortie rate for a USN carrier is probably 170/day with surge loading. So about 800-ish a week until it runs out of ammo and fuel.

e: Though the maximum design surge for Ford is about 270 (no one knows if it could ever reach this without an actual demonstration), the sustained sortie rate is 160, which is about what Nimitz put out without augmentation. Nimitz also successfully produced ~260 sorties/day with surge loading.

So 270's probably where the sigmoid function plateaus. Any improvements in tonnage and size won't really increase the number of sorties overall, although it might decrease the number of sorties per airframe. However, adding additional carriers will improve the sortie rate linearly, at a rate of ~260-270 sorties/day/carrier, which means that you can side-step the plateau by having a second carrier support the first if you really, really, really need two thousand sorties a week.

Thus we discover why this existed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_Carrier_Task_Force and why Forrestals and Kitty Hawks off Vietnam operated in groups with each other and the Essexes to maximize their striking power, rather than the US Navy building leviathan monster carriers with multiple hulls and parallel runways.
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri Aug 18, 2017 1:23 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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North Arkana
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8854
Founded: Dec 16, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby North Arkana » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:04 pm

The exploits of the Fast Carrier Task Force are truly stories for the ages.
"I don't know everything, just the things I know"

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The Pacifican Islands
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1072
Founded: May 30, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pacifican Islands » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:32 am

Sorry for jumping in with a random question.

My nation is a large republic that stretches the Pacific, from Hong Kong to British Columbia (don't ask). I've got a lot of sea to defend. Does it make sense for me to use ekranoplans as missile platforms in addition to missile boats?

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North Arkana
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8854
Founded: Dec 16, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby North Arkana » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:33 am

The Pacifican Islands wrote:Sorry for jumping in with a random question.

My nation is a large republic that stretches the Pacific, from Hong Kong to British Columbia (don't ask). I've got a lot of sea to defend. Does it make sense for me to use ekranoplans as missile platforms in addition to missile boats?

I think it'd make for a good scandal to watch a group of ekranoplans founder in a Pacific storm.
"I don't know everything, just the things I know"

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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:38 am

The Pacifican Islands wrote:Sorry for jumping in with a random question.

My nation is a large republic that stretches the Pacific, from Hong Kong to British Columbia (don't ask). I've got a lot of sea to defend. Does it make sense for me to use ekranoplans as missile platforms in addition to missile boats?


All serious Pacific fleets (American, Soviet, future Chinese) are carrier/submarine fleets. Ekranoplans probably do not have the fuel economy to be sustainable for trans-Pacific journey.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25059
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:39 am

Gallia- wrote:
The Pacifican Islands wrote:Sorry for jumping in with a random question.

My nation is a large republic that stretches the Pacific, from Hong Kong to British Columbia (don't ask). I've got a lot of sea to defend. Does it make sense for me to use ekranoplans as missile platforms in addition to missile boats?


All serious Pacific fleets (American, Soviet, future Chinese) are carrier/submarine fleets. Ekranoplans probably do not have the fuel economy to be sustainable for trans-Pacific journey.

Subs with nuclear reactors, if I may add. :3

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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:16 am

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
All serious Pacific fleets (American, Soviet, future Chinese) are carrier/submarine fleets. Ekranoplans probably do not have the fuel economy to be sustainable for trans-Pacific journey.

Subs with nuclear reactors, if I may add. :3


n u k b o t e
u
k
b
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e

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Theodosiya
Minister
 
Posts: 3145
Founded: Oct 10, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Theodosiya » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:06 am

Would it be a good idea to use gun and missile in one system? Kashtan style, so a GsH-6-30 and 8 Crotales for light version (Frigates, LST and FAC/FMB)and 2 Gats and 16 missiles for heavy version (Destroyers, Cruisers, LHD & LPD)
Last edited by Theodosiya on Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
The strong rules over the weak
And the weak are ruled by the strong
It is the natural order

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Martantaka
Attaché
 
Posts: 71
Founded: Aug 19, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Martantaka » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:32 am

MARTANTAKA NAVY FLEET DIVISION

SUPERSHIP
MMS BERKA CLASS
MMS COURUNVERN CLASS
BATTLESHIP
MMS USEA CLASS
MMS OSEA CLASS
MMS URUNDARVANDA CLASS
MMS KALAIS MRACK
AIRCRAFT CARRIERS
MMS OURED CLASS
MMS GRUNZEN
CRUISERS CARRIER
MMS CC-11
MMS CC-12
FRIGATE
MMS MERRIATE
MMS NORBLANDO
MMD NROBLANO
DESTROYERS
MMS KONHOU
MMS JOUIHOU
MMS DRUTYU
CRUISERS
MMS AZAM
MMS KONGOU
MMS ZERVANDEK
MMS JIHUVAL
MMS POTRYOLU
MMS CHESTER
MMS ERIE
SUBMARINES
SB-105
SB-106
SB-107
SB-108
SB-109
SB-120 PROT
BEACH CHARGER
MMS BC HUNKIRK
MMS BC DURKIRK
MMS BC VRUN
PATROLERS
MMSP UGANDA
MMSP TURKYUJUIO
MMSP ROSHVEN
MMSP HONULO
MMSP GARNADA
LIGHT SCOUTS CRUISERS
LSC BRYU
LSC PHL-31
LSC PHC-31
LSC IZ-552
LSC JUNO
LSC GOLDRYU
LSC OHAMA
LSC BARSHJUNDA
LSC USR
SPECIAL MINE DETECTOR
SMD FAR EAST
SMD SEA
SMD HUNGARI
SMD GOROSHKA
SMD JUOHKAL
SMD ORLENAS
ESCORTS SHIP
ES AB1
ES BB1
ES CB1



NEWS:NEW SHIP COMING IN
MEGASHIP
MMMS STRANDARA
MMMS GRABRALTAR
BATTLESHIP CARRIER (PROT)
MMBCSP ORSHANDA
MMBCSP BARACUBA
MMBCSP HUARTAKAR
SUPER SUBMARINES
MMSSS MORKA
MMSSS CN-17
MMSSS CN-18
MMSSS CN-19
MMSSS CN-20

NOTE:Dude it's year 2048 rn
Last edited by Martantaka on Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25059
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:33 am

Nice laundry list.

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Kassaran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10871
Founded: Jun 16, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Kassaran » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:34 am

lol superships. Again I'm reminded of the world in which I live, let the Longbow forever reign amen.
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Zarkenis Ultima wrote:Tristan noticed footsteps behind him and looked there, only to see Eric approaching and then pointing his sword at the girl. He just blinked a few times at this before speaking.

"Put that down, Mr. Eric." He said. "She's obviously not a chicken."
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The United Remnants of America wrote:You keep that cheap Chinese knock-off away from the real OG...

bloody hell, mate.
that's a real deal. We just don't buy the license rights.

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Theodosiya
Minister
 
Posts: 3145
Founded: Oct 10, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Theodosiya » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:38 am

Why, oh why there must be superships...
The strong rules over the weak
And the weak are ruled by the strong
It is the natural order

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New Visayan Islands
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8692
Founded: Jan 31, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby New Visayan Islands » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:43 am

Been a while since I last checked, so I assume "superships" are some kind of mobile seaborne fortress?
Let "¡Viva la Libertad!" be a cry of Eternal Defiance to the Jackboot.
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Theodosiya
Minister
 
Posts: 3145
Founded: Oct 10, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Theodosiya » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:47 am

More or less. Impractical in this age. Even if i could be bothered, my biggest ship would be a pair of battle cruisers. Based partly on Kirovs to replace said class and Slavas.
The strong rules over the weak
And the weak are ruled by the strong
It is the natural order

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North Arkana
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8854
Founded: Dec 16, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby North Arkana » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:26 pm

Theodosiya wrote:Why, oh why there must be superships...
I have super ships. They're called 100k tonne nuclear powered aircraft carriers. :p And a couple 20k tonne "battlecruiser" thingies. They exist for the purpose of flooding the battlespace with missile delivered heavyweight torps, and supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles. And firing off SAMs at things. They basically do what my smaller, more useful ships do. Just bigger. And a bit of an eyesore in the fleet, but enough to keep poorly informed politicians happy with impressive sounding terminology after they shoved it through the budget office.
"I don't know everything, just the things I know"

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Celitannia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 156
Founded: Jul 08, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Celitannia » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:47 pm

Sounds like a good platform for BMD.
I am the teaposter formerly known as Celibrae

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The Pacifican Islands
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1072
Founded: May 30, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pacifican Islands » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:01 pm

Gallia- wrote:
The Pacifican Islands wrote:Sorry for jumping in with a random question.

My nation is a large republic that stretches the Pacific, from Hong Kong to British Columbia (don't ask). I've got a lot of sea to defend. Does it make sense for me to use ekranoplans as missile platforms in addition to missile boats?


All serious Pacific fleets (American, Soviet, future Chinese) are carrier/submarine fleets. Ekranoplans probably do not have the fuel economy to be sustainable for trans-Pacific journey.
North Arkana wrote:
The Pacifican Islands wrote:Sorry for jumping in with a random question.

My nation is a large republic that stretches the Pacific, from Hong Kong to British Columbia (don't ask). I've got a lot of sea to defend. Does it make sense for me to use ekranoplans as missile platforms in addition to missile boats?

I think it'd make for a good scandal to watch a group of ekranoplans founder in a Pacific storm.

Sorry, I don't think I was clear. Would it be useful to use ekranoplans in the role that missile boats fulfill?

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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25421
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:06 pm

Not really. Ekranoplans are aircraft, not boats. Aircraft that carry substantial quantities of high power missiles, like Shipwreck Brahmos. Think of them more as Fast!Oscars or Mega!Backfires.

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The Akasha Colony
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Posts: 14157
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:19 pm

The Pacifican Islands wrote:Sorry, I don't think I was clear. Would it be useful to use ekranoplans in the role that missile boats fulfill?


No. For the same reasons that were mentioned: they don't have the range or the sea/air worthiness for the role of a small surface combatant. They're fairly susceptible to rough weather conditions, which is not an issue in the confined waters of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea where the Soviets planned to employ them, but a problem in the open waters of the Pacific Ocean.

Ekranoplans are good at carrying relatively large amounts of equipment or weapons fairly quickly, but this niche can already be filled by existing strike aircraft which also generally have longer range. The money for an ekranoplan fleet would probably be better invested in a few extra submarines or an extra wing of conventional bombers. That's more or less the same conclusion the Soviets came to.

The use of missile boats in a blue water navy is somewhat questionable in the first place though. Missile boats are favored by nations that tend to limit their naval aspirations to purely defensive endeavors, limited mostly to their own littorals.
A colony of the New Free Planets Alliance.
The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
New Free Planets Alliance (FT)
New Terran Republic (FT)
Republic of Carthage (MT)
World Economic Union (MT)
Kaiserreich Europa Zentral (PT/MT)
Five Republics of Hanalua (FanT)
National Links: Factbook Entry | Embassy Program
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The Pacifican Islands
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Posts: 1072
Founded: May 30, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pacifican Islands » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:01 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:
The Pacifican Islands wrote:Sorry, I don't think I was clear. Would it be useful to use ekranoplans in the role that missile boats fulfill?


No. For the same reasons that were mentioned: they don't have the range or the sea/air worthiness for the role of a small surface combatant. They're fairly susceptible to rough weather conditions, which is not an issue in the confined waters of the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea where the Soviets planned to employ them, but a problem in the open waters of the Pacific Ocean.

Ekranoplans are good at carrying relatively large amounts of equipment or weapons fairly quickly, but this niche can already be filled by existing strike aircraft which also generally have longer range. The money for an ekranoplan fleet would probably be better invested in a few extra submarines or an extra wing of conventional bombers. That's more or less the same conclusion the Soviets came to.

The use of missile boats in a blue water navy is somewhat questionable in the first place though. Missile boats are favored by nations that tend to limit their naval aspirations to purely defensive endeavors, limited mostly to their own littorals.
Gallia- wrote:Not really. Ekranoplans are aircraft, not boats. Aircraft that carry substantial quantities of high power missiles, like Shipwreck Brahmos. Think of them more as Fast!Oscars or Mega!Backfires.

Then how can I defend my littorals?

EDIT: completely unrelated question. Would arsenal ships be useful in my navy (for any role)?
Last edited by The Pacifican Islands on Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Western Pacific Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14014
Founded: Apr 29, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Western Pacific Territories » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:11 pm

The Pacifican Islands wrote:Then how can I defend my littorals?

Get good.

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The Akasha Colony
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14157
Founded: Apr 25, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:35 pm

The Pacifican Islands wrote:Then how can I defend my littorals?


By stopping the enemy before he gets there using your blue water navy, which is to say with your aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines.

Big littoral forces are fielded only by nations that do not expect they can stop their enemies before they can reach their littoral zones. The USSR and China were both in this position against the US Navy, while the Scandinavian countries felt they were in this position against the Soviet Navy. The North Koreans and Iranians also feel they are in this position against the US Navy and both expect to fight only in rather confined waters (the Persian Gulf and the Yellow Sea/Sea of Japan). The real point of missile boats and FACs is to dissuade attackers from conducting amphibious assaults. They are not a serious impediment to a major enemy carrier task force conducting a bombing campaign or such because they have no way to really counter such threats. Their chances of making it past the carrier's outer escort screen are dubious, but their chances of being able to catch landing craft by surprise as they close with the shore are better.

With the development of aircraft carriers and a blue water navy, China will probably devote progressively less of its resources toward littoral craft and more toward building a larger deepwater fleet of aircraft carriers, large escorts, and submarines. The Soviets were moving in this direction when the Cold War ended. The United States of course never had to bother building a fleet of littoral defense boats because the US Navy was expected to carry the fight to enemy waters or at least to the open ocean, far from US shores. All the US mainland would need were a few wings of maritime patrol aircraft to catch any submarines that might slip through, but these were not the sorts of threats that missile boats are designed to counter.

EDIT: completely unrelated question. Would arsenal ships be useful in my navy (for any role)?


No.
A colony of the New Free Planets Alliance.
The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
New Free Planets Alliance (FT)
New Terran Republic (FT)
Republic of Carthage (MT)
World Economic Union (MT)
Kaiserreich Europa Zentral (PT/MT)
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National Links: Factbook Entry | Embassy Program
Storefronts: Carthaginian Naval Export Authority [MT, Navy]

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The Pacifican Islands
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1072
Founded: May 30, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby The Pacifican Islands » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:52 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:
EDIT: completely unrelated question. Would arsenal ships be useful in my navy (for any role)?


No.


Why not?

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25059
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:53 pm

Gallia- wrote:Not really. Ekranoplans are aircraft, not boats. Aircraft that carry substantial quantities of high power missiles, like Shipwreck Brahmos. Think of them more as Fast!Oscars or Mega!Backfires.

I think they're more like Big!Osas. Fast!Oscars would demand nuclear power. :3

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Connori Pilgrims
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1794
Founded: Nov 14, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Connori Pilgrims » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:15 am

The Pacifican Islands wrote:Then how can I defend my littorals?


Build a true blue-water navy (ideally with nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and attack/cruise-missile submarines) to meet the enemy navy in battle long before they reach your littorals or have your capital and vital cities in range of their strike aircraft.

Anything else is merely vanity and an appeal to deterrence while hoping for a Big Brother or "the international community" to come save you.

EDIT: completely unrelated question. Would arsenal ships be useful in my navy (for any role)?


Existing large combatants such as cruisers and the Arleigh Burke family of destroyers (including the Korean and Japanese classes) can carry enough land-attack missiles to conduct any normal land-attack strike, while being able to defend themselves and other ships. This capability tends to increase in custom-design NS cruisers and destroyers, but not drastically so its not as bonkers. Cruise missile submarines like the Ohio SSGN conversions carry 154 cruise missiles each which is quite plenty.

Arsenal ships, being quite literally floating missile magazines with engines on them, cannot defend themselves. Meaning you concentrated a lot of firepower on something that can be easily killed. "too many eggs in one easily burnable basket" problem.

Most NSers think they can correct that by putting radars and defences, which invalidates the whole point of the arsenal ship in the first place - which is to be a *relatively* cheap platform (compared to a full 90-100Ktonne aircraft carrier and its air group, or a 10-30Ktonne cruiser with a sophisticated sensor suite) to launch SLCMs.

And doctrinally, arsenal ships would be invalid for you anyway since they are best used by blue water navies who intend to go around bombing brown people/weak countries, and can cover its weaknesses.

But if you can cover its weaknesses, chances are you already have enough organic firepower in existing ship classes to not need them.
LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR YOU. HATE.

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