Your Nation's Warships, Batch 3

[The Selkie]

So in a 1910s to 1920s era time frame, would the Tillman Maximum Battleships be practical?

Practical, as in able to float and sail under their own power? Yeah. Practical, as in being a worthwhile pound for pound investment in place of something more along the lines of the G3 class? Probably not.

Plus, like many American Warships, the TMB was thought out with the constraints of the Panama Canal in mind - if your country does not have such constraints, or does not expect to face such constraints in the near future, you could go a bit further, at least in theory.
The other point is: Would a TMB-like vessel make sense for your nation at the time?

[Connori Pilgrims]

So in a 1910s to 1920s era time frame, would the Tillman Maximum Battleships be practical?

They were industrially and technically possible at least for the United States. Of the various Tillman concepts, the Design IV-2 was probably the best traditional line-of-battle fighter you'd get; American doctrinal thinking of the time was not yet ready to accept something like the fast Design III (to the point that they puportedly deliberately rejected concepts for what would become the Lexington-class battlecruiser that were better armoured).

Politically, well the Tillmans were a thought exercise the Navy did to placate the senator from which the name was taken, i.e. they weren't really dead set on it, and even if the Navy wanted it I doubt the US governments of the time would buy it.

If you mean for NS, well, if you're gonna say that your 1910-1920 economy is like the US and you really want to, because "I want to be the best" or whatever, uhh well whatever floats your boat. At least you can drive economies lesser to you (your region's equivalent of 1910s-1920s Imperial Japan and UK) into ruin if they try to compete with you...

[The Manticoran Empire]

So in a 1910s to 1920s era time frame, would the Tillman Maximum Battleships be practical?

Practical, as in able to float and sail under their own power? Yeah. Practical, as in being a worthwhile pound for pound investment in place of something more along the lines of the G3 class? Probably not.

Interesting.

Practical, as in able to float and sail under their own power? Yeah. Practical, as in being a worthwhile pound for pound investment in place of something more along the lines of the G3 class? Probably not.

Plus, like many American Warships, the TMB was thought out with the constraints of the Panama Canal in mind - if your country does not have such constraints, or does not expect to face such constraints in the near future, you could go a bit further, at least in theory.
The other point is: Would a TMB-like vessel make sense for your nation at the time?

In terms of constraints, my nation in my region has nice access to the coast and doesn't require a canal. In terms of the geostrategic situation at the time, while the Tillmans might get approval, I don't see any of my neighboring rivals developing ships of such scale.

So in a 1910s to 1920s era time frame, would the Tillman Maximum Battleships be practical?

They were industrially and technically possible at least for the United States. Of the various Tillman concepts, the Design IV-2 was probably the best traditional line-of-battle fighter you'd get; American doctrinal thinking of the time was not yet ready to accept something like the fast Design III (to the point that they puportedly deliberately rejected concepts for what would become the Lexington-class battlecruiser that were better armoured).

Politically, well the Tillmans were a thought exercise the Navy did to placate the senator from which the name was taken, i.e. they weren't really dead set on it, and even if the Navy wanted it I doubt the US governments of the time would buy it.

If you mean for NS, well, if you're gonna say that your 1910-1920 economy is like the US and you really want to, because "I want to be the best" or whatever, uhh well whatever floats your boat. At least you can drive economies lesser to you (your region's equivalent of 1910s-1920s Imperial Japan and UK) into ruin if they try to compete with you...

Hmm.

[Prosorusiya]

So, here's a thought for the thread... having to do with funding and multinational fleets, since I'm part of an USSR that never ended. So, I was contemplating the way the Caspian Flotilla was run, wherein there were multiple nationalities serving in the fleet to man ships, and it got me thinking about how Ukraine later on had a kind of sponsorship deal wherein cities could get naval ships named after them if they pledged to support them. Would it be practical for a government like the USSR to allow certain cities that are other wise land locked to both finanically support and man smaller combatants?

Here's another thought I had recently: if Russia had chosen to upgrade all Match class hydrofoil missile boats to the same standard as they did with the one that had it's R-15 "Termit" missiles replaced with Kh-35 "Switchblade"... would they still be in service? If they had decided to retain at least one unit, would it still be useful as a training ship?

[Kassaran]

Warning, this reads a lot like my post in the Infantry Discussion Thread. I have changed it to be suitable to here and by no means am attempting to spam as the content of this post does differ after my introduction, but I feel it fair to utilize much of the same framework utilized in the IDT to expedite the process involved in posting what I need to here.

Alrighty folks, time to go over what the Soviet Republic of Manchuria and Joseon (SRMJ) are fielding circa 1902 in the regional RP going on. I am running the aforementioned nation and am trying to ensure I have as wide and effective a net cast as possible to ensure optimal force dispersion during the current Sino-Japanese conflict.

Here is the Google Sheet that I'm using to display the current base metrics of the Republican navy (as the majority of the work has been done on Excel and translates over somewhat decently to sheets). The numbers currently involved are somewhat wishy-washy as they'll get more specific once I do basic deployment/readiness rolls, but the overall feeling is there for what to expect under the best circumstances. I want to know where I can be expanding my military capacity and also get some additional explanations on what can be done to improve the metrics further.

Also, while this request will be going primarily out to the CYOE thread, I want to give you guys here the more direct request of someone who wants to be commissioned to build an artistic representation of the current SRMJ naval unit divisions. I've seen a lot of talent in here in the past and I want to offer a chance for those of you who get bit by the bug to play with some of the work I've been doing on my own to some mutual benefit.

Alright, moving on, here's what I got for the basic comprehensive look at my nation's doctrine as the SRMJ:

I have listed below the basic Squadron structure of the Republican Navy. The Republican Navy has had to develop underneath the watchful eye of the United States Navy (the predominant naval force in the world circa 1902 in the Regional RP underway, as such I needed to maintain a low profile by building pocket-dreadnoughts under the premise of them being "Heavy Cruisers"). I additionally have been making rapid advances in weapons and propulsion technology, so smaller vessels have more classes associated with them, in addition to being the primary focus for my shipyards in the 1890's into the year 1902.

Each of the Squadrons has been designed around a specific mission requirement for each fleet and is built to work in conjunction with other fleet-based elements. Not all Squadrons are centered fully on a single ship however, as tenders and freighters tend to sacrifice much of their assigned crew to additional duties aboard larger ships and at port.

The Line Squadron: Due to the incredibly large and powerful navy of the United States being the predominant force in all oceans of the world, my nation has elected to maintain a lower profile by refusing to built dreadnought-style vessels. To counter the significant threat posed by large, heavily-armed ships, more value has been placed upon utilizing smaller, more heavily armored vessels. Focusing on heightened survivability and speed to close on enemy dreadnoughts, the Heavy Cruisers generally act as the capital ships of their respective task fleets and divisions. They feature 4-6 high caliber naval anti-shipping guns, usually within rotating turrets aft and fore (focused fore) of the bridge superstructure and reinforced deck and bow armor to improve survivability against fire from enemy heavy guns. As such, they are also relegated to the shore-bombardment mission during naval raids and landings.

The Escort Squadron: Built on being entirely self-sustaining as a separate element during naval engagements, these make up the meat and bones of the Republican Navy, being fielded in massive numbers to offset the lack of heavy-tonnage warships. These generally support limited crews of 100-200 per vessel with remaining personnel being stationed ashore as reserves. While Light Cruisers feature much in the way of similar armor as their heavy cruiser brethren, they generally feature only 2-4 high caliber naval anti-shipping guns in a single turret aft and fore of the bridge superstructure (focused fore), preferring to utilize their 6-8 medium/low caliber anti-shipping single-gun barbette batteries within each side.

To counter the increased threat of Torpedo Boats and Submarines in the oceans of the world, the Republican Navy has also developed an incredibly large Torpedo-Boat Destroyer fleet, numbering over 600 vessels of roughly five-to-twenty years of age. While the majority of these vessels are over ten years of age, they represent a variety of vessels designed for missions ranging from gunboat to anti-submarine warfare, to existing as torpedo boats themselves in the wake of meaningful advances in torpedo boats built by the Republican Naval Shipyards at Shanghai, Qingdao, Busan, and Tianjin.

The Sustainment Squadron: A fleet sails on its reserves of coal and petrol in the world of the industrialized and modern navy (circa 1902), as such a robust and powerful fleet of fuel tenders and cargo freighters has been employed to aid in the operation of many of the fleets of the SRMJ. While the fleets have limited capability in blue water engagements, this capability is provided almost exclusively by the presence of these squadrons and as such have become the mainstay for extended-range operations and engagements in the Pacific.

The Torpedo Boat Squadron: When the Second Sino-Japanese War ended, it was determined that the Japanese reliance on large ships to break through Republican defenses in Busan and to hold the beachhead for the two months the conflict was waged in the wake of the Fall of Busan, required an approach determined highly effective after increased research developed the Harpoon Mk I Anti-shipping torpedo. Deemed to be the most advanced and modern torpedo design of its time, it boasted a range and speed that exceeded anything most any other navy had to offer. Increased research and development of the torpedo came to create the most robust and powerful anti-shipping weapon the Republican Navy now fields. With the rise of Submarine warfare at the close of the American Anti-Piracy Wars, increased development of semi-submersible and fully-submersible torpedo-boats created a capability for ambush hunting of enemy shipping not previously explored by the Soviet bloc. With a decreased investment in large surface ships, naval shipyards were asked to create more capable submarine designs, with only the naval shipyards in Dalian and Incheon designing and producing successful and significantly advanced designs for naval warfare usage at the turn of the millennium.

The Torpedo Boat Destroyer Squadron: With the increased wariness on the capabilities of Torpedo Boats and Submarines, the Republican Navy authorized the extensive creation of torpedo-boat destroyers, and likewise the mass fielding of these ships to protect vital coastal infrastructure. As such, the Torpedo Boat Destroyer (Destroyer for short), became the mainstay vessel of the Republican Navy and is likely to remain as such until the building of large-hulled ships can begin in earnest.

The Medical Squadron: Casualties are a fact of war, and being able to appropriately and immediately treat those casualties aids in the preservation and sustainment of naval operations in any theater. The Medical Squadrons of the Republican Navy feature highly visible, easily seen, and large-hulled conversions of civilian freighters, developed for the purposes of treating the wounded, storing the dead, and aiding in humanitarian relief operations in the wake of natural disasters and significant combat operations.

The Troop Squadron: Developed with the intentions of providing a transport-oriented means of ferrying troops across large bodies of water, the Troop Squadron features the mainstay large-hulled vessels of the Republican Navy. Designed to be converted over the course of several months from lightly armed transport vessels, to heavily armed combat vessels, they have been developed to primarily operate in the amphibious invasion and support role, providing strong cover as fire support and weapons platforms for Marine Infantry and Marine Cavalry forces during such operations.

So, what are the general thoughts on this style of fleet organizations and how can I improve either my naval doctrine or understanding on how to utilize my naval forces in the current conflict I'm engaging in?

[United Earthlings]

Warning, this reads a lot like my post in the Infantry Discussion Thread. I have changed it to be suitable to here and by no means am attempting to spam as the content of this post does differ after my introduction, but I feel it fair to utilize much of the same framework utilized in the IDT to expedite the process involved in posting what I need to here.

Alrighty folks, time to go over what the Soviet Republic of Manchuria and Joseon (SRMJ) are fielding circa 1902 in the regional RP going on. I am running the aforementioned nation and am trying to ensure I have as wide and effective a net cast as possible to ensure optimal force dispersion during the current Sino-Japanese conflict.

Here is the Google Sheet that I'm using to display the current base metrics of the Republican navy (as the majority of the work has been done on Excel and translates over somewhat decently to sheets). The numbers currently involved are somewhat wishy-washy as they'll get more specific once I do basic deployment/readiness rolls, but the overall feeling is there for what to expect under the best circumstances. I want to know where I can be expanding my military capacity and also get some additional explanations on what can be done to improve the metrics further.

Also, while this request will be going primarily out to the CYOE thread, I want to give you guys here the more direct request of someone who wants to be commissioned to build an artistic representation of the current SRMJ naval unit divisions. I've seen a lot of talent in here in the past and I want to offer a chance for those of you who get bit by the bug to play with some of the work I've been doing on my own to some mutual benefit.

Alright, moving on, here's what I got for the basic comprehensive look at my nation's doctrine as the SRMJ:

I have listed below the basic Squadron structure of the Republican Navy. The Republican Navy has had to develop underneath the watchful eye of the United States Navy (the predominant naval force in the world circa 1902 in the Regional RP underway, as such I needed to maintain a low profile by building pocket-dreadnoughts under the premise of them being "Heavy Cruisers"). I additionally have been making rapid advances in weapons and propulsion technology, so smaller vessels have more classes associated with them, in addition to being the primary focus for my shipyards in the 1890's into the year 1902.

Each of the Squadrons has been designed around a specific mission requirement for each fleet and is built to work in conjunction with other fleet-based elements. Not all Squadrons are centered fully on a single ship however, as tenders and freighters tend to sacrifice much of their assigned crew to additional duties aboard larger ships and at port.

The Line Squadron: Due to the incredibly large and powerful navy of the United States being the predominant force in all oceans of the world, my nation has elected to maintain a lower profile by refusing to built dreadnought-style vessels. To counter the significant threat posed by large, heavily-armed ships, more value has been placed upon utilizing smaller, more heavily armored vessels. Focusing on heightened survivability and speed to close on enemy dreadnoughts, the Heavy Cruisers generally act as the capital ships of their respective task fleets and divisions. They feature 4-6 high caliber naval anti-shipping guns, usually within rotating turrets aft and fore (focused fore) of the bridge superstructure and reinforced deck and bow armor to improve survivability against fire from enemy heavy guns. As such, they are also relegated to the shore-bombardment mission during naval raids and landings.

The Escort Squadron: Built on being entirely self-sustaining as a separate element during naval engagements, these make up the meat and bones of the Republican Navy, being fielded in massive numbers to offset the lack of heavy-tonnage warships. These generally support limited crews of 100-200 per vessel with remaining personnel being stationed ashore as reserves. While Light Cruisers feature much in the way of similar armor as their heavy cruiser brethren, they generally feature only 2-4 high caliber naval anti-shipping guns in a single turret aft and fore of the bridge superstructure (focused fore), preferring to utilize their 6-8 medium/low caliber anti-shipping single-gun barbette batteries within each side.

To counter the increased threat of Torpedo Boats and Submarines in the oceans of the world, the Republican Navy has also developed an incredibly large Torpedo-Boat Destroyer fleet, numbering over 600 vessels of roughly five-to-twenty years of age. While the majority of these vessels are over ten years of age, they represent a variety of vessels designed for missions ranging from gunboat to anti-submarine warfare, to existing as torpedo boats themselves in the wake of meaningful advances in torpedo boats built by the Republican Naval Shipyards at Shanghai, Qingdao, Busan, and Tianjin.

The Sustainment Squadron: A fleet sails on its reserves of coal and petrol in the world of the industrialized and modern navy (circa 1902), as such a robust and powerful fleet of fuel tenders and cargo freighters has been employed to aid in the operation of many of the fleets of the SRMJ. While the fleets have limited capability in blue water engagements, this capability is provided almost exclusively by the presence of these squadrons and as such have become the mainstay for extended-range operations and engagements in the Pacific.

The Torpedo Boat Squadron: When the Second Sino-Japanese War ended, it was determined that the Japanese reliance on large ships to break through Republican defenses in Busan and to hold the beachhead for the two months the conflict was waged in the wake of the Fall of Busan, required an approach determined highly effective after increased research developed the Harpoon Mk I Anti-shipping torpedo. Deemed to be the most advanced and modern torpedo design of its time, it boasted a range and speed that exceeded anything most any other navy had to offer. Increased research and development of the torpedo came to create the most robust and powerful anti-shipping weapon the Republican Navy now fields. With the rise of Submarine warfare at the close of the American Anti-Piracy Wars, increased development of semi-submersible and fully-submersible torpedo-boats created a capability for ambush hunting of enemy shipping not previously explored by the Soviet bloc. With a decreased investment in large surface ships, naval shipyards were asked to create more capable submarine designs, with only the naval shipyards in Dalian and Incheon designing and producing successful and significantly advanced designs for naval warfare usage at the turn of the millennium.

The Torpedo Boat Destroyer Squadron: With the increased wariness on the capabilities of Torpedo Boats and Submarines, the Republican Navy authorized the extensive creation of torpedo-boat destroyers, and likewise the mass fielding of these ships to protect vital coastal infrastructure. As such, the Torpedo Boat Destroyer (Destroyer for short), became the mainstay vessel of the Republican Navy and is likely to remain as such until the building of large-hulled ships can begin in earnest.

The Medical Squadron: Casualties are a fact of war, and being able to appropriately and immediately treat those casualties aids in the preservation and sustainment of naval operations in any theater. The Medical Squadrons of the Republican Navy feature highly visible, easily seen, and large-hulled conversions of civilian freighters, developed for the purposes of treating the wounded, storing the dead, and aiding in humanitarian relief operations in the wake of natural disasters and significant combat operations.

The Troop Squadron: Developed with the intentions of providing a transport-oriented means of ferrying troops across large bodies of water, the Troop Squadron features the mainstay large-hulled vessels of the Republican Navy. Designed to be converted over the course of several months from lightly armed transport vessels, to heavily armed combat vessels, they have been developed to primarily operate in the amphibious invasion and support role, providing strong cover as fire support and weapons platforms for Marine Infantry and Marine Cavalry forces during such operations.

So, what are the general thoughts on this style of fleet organizations and how can I improve either my naval doctrine or understanding on how to utilize my naval forces in the current conflict I'm engaging in?

Small nitpick, but to start off with, the terms light cruiser and heavy cruiser won't gain prominence until the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922, until then cruisers especially for the stated time period would fall under the four categories of unarmored, scout, protected and armored. Also, it's slightly unclear, but if your nation is building battleships AKA Pre-dreadnoughts and merely referring to them as cruisers you’re not going to fool international intelligence services for very long.

Battleships [Pre-dreadnoughts] tended to fulfill two functions; A. Project naval power and B. Be symbols of National Prestige. If like in real life even the South Americans can have a naval arms race and build quite a few Battleships [Pre-dreadnoughts] and even later Dreadnoughts, I don't see why your nation couldn't build a few said vessels and still maintain a low profile.

On the topic of Naval Doctrines: I would suggest reading up on the Jeune École school of thought as that seems to be the direction your intent on pursuing. Now you'll have to decide which school of thought is more dominant within your naval community and how far or how little influence has the Mahan phenomenon penetrated said halls above.

Have Fun and good luck...

[Kassaran]

Small nitpick, but to start off with, the terms light cruiser and heavy cruiser won't gain prominence until the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922

Well, I'm kind of fortunate here in that respect. Cruising ships of the Line were the mainstay of my fleet's naval power projection capabilities prior to 1890 due to the extreme degradation of the Chinese fleets post-Empire. There's effectively a thirty year period of region history where I wasn't actively participating and my nation was balkanized (ineffectually) and my technological progress halted. As such, the term Cruiser "xúnyángjiàn" is a shorthand of "Xúnháng chuán de xiàn" or Cruising Ship of the Line which comes back to the term being common in Chinese Naval Parlance (within the scope of this alt-history RP going on in the Region). In short, if Communism can come to fruition 100 years early in Russia, Cruisers and their variants can easily come in thirty years early with the right (wrong) reasons to back them up.

until then cruisers especially for the stated time period would fall under the four categories of unarmored, scout, protected and armored. Also, it's slightly unclear, but if your nation is building battleships AKA Pre-dreadnoughts and merely referring to them as cruisers you’re not going to fool international intelligence services for very long.

So, I actually like this bit of information and it let's be begin separating things out a bit more, but the majority of these ships are being built predicated on the types of shipyards opened for them. Light Cruisers can be built within the smaller "Làngcháo" type shipyards that are common throughout much of the harbor cities around the nation. Due to the understanding that war was soon to happen, most of the nation's civilian production has been slowly pre-staged for a switch to total war production levels as determined necessary by the government.

Larger shipyards, built and named for the cities they reside in, are purpose built for actually constructing the large freighters and heavy cruisers. What determines the status of both as cruisers is their position and specialization in engaging capital ships, unlike the Torpedo Boat Destroyers which were built to engage similarly sized vessels and below. In short, the heavy cruisers really only differ by having a size that enables the fitting of the steam turbines needed to drive them through the water quickly with more armor than their lighter brethren, but with the same armament.

Battleships [Pre-dreadnoughts] tended to fulfill two functions; A. Project naval power and B. Be symbols of National Prestige. If like in real life even the South Americans can have a naval arms race and build quite a few Battleships [Pre-dreadnoughts] and even later Dreadnoughts, I don't see why your nation couldn't build a few said vessels and still maintain a low profile.

Projecting naval power is something I actually can't afford to do beyond the Yellow Sea and the Sea of Japan. The prospect of making dreadnoughts was seen as incredibly wasteful of the resources and time present. While it made sense for the nations of the west to do it, the Soviets of my nation have held a highly militant mindset for the past ten years ICly and were gearing up for a total war, as could be seen in their constant build up and stockpiling of weapons. A military coup almost occurred but was successfully subverted by the political class through a rapid deposition of the rogue elements and successful re-stabilization of the military. As unlikely as it seems, the dice rolls made it so for me.

On the topic of Naval Doctrines: I would suggest reading up on the Jeune École school of thought as that seems to be the direction your intent on pursuing. Now you'll have to decide which school of thought is more dominant within your naval community and how far or how little influence has the Mahan phenomenon penetrated said halls above.

Have Fun and good luck...

Jeune Ecole was actually one of my primary sources of inspiration and learning for the development of my navy in the presence of an overwhelming force of naval foes I couldn't afford to face. It was the combined naval power of the United States, the German Reich, and the Japanese Empire which forced me to accept the Armistice, as the overwhelming opposition I would have faced would have made the war far more drawn out than it needed to be. While I could have argued for attrition in the long-run, it wasn't worth it. Additionally, Mahan's thoughts haven't penetrated far as the memory of a strong Chinese empire still lies fresh in the admiralty and the strength the Chinese had against their enemies by holding enough land to field their fleets from. America and the European nations are commonly viewed as being foolish in having stretched out as far as they have with their navies as they can't sustain holding the world forever if those on the land grow stronger regardless.

[United Earthlings]

Well, I'm kind of fortunate here in that respect. Cruising ships of the Line were the mainstay of my fleet's naval power projection capabilities prior to 1890 due to the extreme degradation of the Chinese fleets post-Empire. There's effectively a thirty year period of region history where I wasn't actively participating and my nation was balkanized (ineffectually) and my technological progress halted. As such, the term Cruiser "xúnyángjiàn" is a shorthand of "Xúnháng chuán de xiàn" or Cruising Ship of the Line which comes back to the term being common in Chinese Naval Parlance (within the scope of this alt-history RP going on in the Region). In short, if Communism can come to fruition 100 years early in Russia, Cruisers and their variants can easily come in thirty years early with the right (wrong) reasons to back them up.

Since it appears to me your Alt-history China is suffering under many of the same problems that actually plagued China doing this similar time period which resulted in RL China turning to foreign Western Shipyards to build a good portion of their modern naval fleet, a similar requirement for your Alt-History China would also be required to pursue to catch up in the technological arms race. From there those Western naval terms I mentioned last post would ultimately find their way into your Fleet's Chinese Naval Parlance, realistically speaking. I'm not overly stressed if you call your cruisers light and heavy as it is an Alt-History version, but realistically speaking whatever the Chinese Parlance would be, it would probably be something closer to like Light Protected Cruiser or Heavy Armored Cruiser, etc... when Anglicized.

Beyond the scope of our current discussion, but a quick note. Modern Communism as we understand it today wouldn't be the same type of Communism had it taken hold of Russia a century earlier. Without the influence of what would be later known as Marxism and then Marxism-Leninism later plus a ton of other variables that inevitably led to the USSR. None of which is going to exist in 1802 {1902-100}. So, it's your Alt-History, but a earlier Communist USSR is highly improbable.

So, I actually like this bit of information and it let's be begin separating things out a bit more, but the majority of these ships are being built predicated on the types of shipyards opened for them. Light Cruisers can be built within the smaller "Làngcháo" type shipyards that are common throughout much of the harbor cities around the nation. Due to the understanding that war was soon to happen, most of the nation's civilian production has been slowly pre-staged for a switch to total war production levels as determined necessary by the government.

Larger shipyards, built and named for the cities they reside in, are purpose built for actually constructing the large freighters and heavy cruisers. What determines the status of both as cruisers is their position and specialization in engaging capital ships, unlike the Torpedo Boat Destroyers which were built to engage similarly sized vessels and below. In short, the heavy cruisers really only differ by having a size that enables the fitting of the steam turbines needed to drive them through the water quickly with more armor than their lighter brethren, but with the same armament.

It is an Alt-History, but considering what you stated below where the combined naval power of the United States, the German Reich, and the Japanese Empire forced you to accept an Armistice, I'm curious why they also didn't force a major naval dismantlement as both you and them consider each other major threats.

Furthermore, as stated above, most of the modern Chinese Navy of that period was acquired from overseas Western Shipyards, one of which is now apparently a major rival of your nation.

Compare the main Chinese Fleet strength before the First Sino-Japanese War, a similar war, but larger in scope in your Alt-History that occurred around the same time period that you appear to have made worse for your Alt-History nation and yet somehow escaped all the consequences imposed on China in the RL war stated above, consequences it should be noted by all instances that should have been worse.

Projecting naval power is something I actually can't afford to do beyond the Yellow Sea and the Sea of Japan. The prospect of making dreadnoughts was seen as incredibly wasteful of the resources and time present. While it made sense for the nations of the west to do it, the Soviets of my nation have held a highly militant mindset for the past ten years ICly and were gearing up for a total war, as could be seen in their constant build up and stockpiling of weapons. A military coup almost occurred but was successfully subverted by the political class through a rapid deposition of the rogue elements and successful re-stabilization of the military. As unlikely as it seems, the dice rolls made it so for me.

Since you didn't state specific dimensions and types/#of weaponry, but if all those cruisers you plan to acquire by 1902 is similar to what China acquired historically, that's not going to be a cheap proposition. Naval vessels are expensive with a good protected or armored cruiser probably costing 1/3rd or 1/2 the cost of a similar period modern battleship. {Note: Dreadnought is again a specific term which wouldn't exist yet during the time period in question, in any Alt-History version.}

Jeune Ecole was actually one of my primary sources of inspiration and learning for the development of my navy in the presence of an overwhelming force of naval foes I couldn't afford to face. It was the combined naval power of the United States, the German Reich, and the Japanese Empire which forced me to accept the Armistice, as the overwhelming opposition I would have faced would have made the war far more drawn out than it needed to be. While I could have argued for attrition in the long-run, it wasn't worth it. Additionally, Mahan's thoughts haven't penetrated far as the memory of a strong Chinese empire still lies fresh in the admiralty and the strength the Chinese had against their enemies by holding enough land to field their fleets from. America and the European nations are commonly viewed as being foolish in having stretched out as far as they have with their navies as they can't sustain holding the world forever if those on the land grow stronger regardless.

To further help your inspiration along, here's some additional information.

In the early stages {same time period as your Alt-History}, Japanese naval strategy also practiced a form of Jeune Ecole, so how a more aggressive militarized China influences Japanese strategy is one interesting way you can explore the development of this Alt-History. I personally turned to my source of Kaigun: Strategy, Tactics, and Technology in the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1887-1941 to get a good reference point in the comparisons.

How the JEUNE ÉCOLE school of thought came to find it's host in France, an interesting read from the Naval War College who publish very good articles: FROM A PRESTIGE FLEET TO THE JEUNE ÉCOLE-Do Note, the link is a PDF.

Then finally, if you can find a free copy to read there's this book: The Jeune École: The Strategy of the Weak by Arne Roksund.

[Kassaran]

Oh, I think I see where the disconnect is happening here Earthlings. While I'd indeed be suffering from these sorts of problems if this were just me playing, there are roughly twenty other nations active in the world, and all of them are players.

Russia became a proto-USSR because the player who chose them is a Marxist IRL. He's maintained a pretty frosty relationship with most everyone else save for some of the more rogue pariah states from the start.

Britain fell apart because the player in charge of it failed to maintain much presence and got out-competed by France and Germany in the rush for Colonization, only managing to just take hold of lands in Asia, this is important due to how I wrote China in.

China wasn't yet entirely fucked in the year 1800, but it was in serious trouble if something major didn't happen. Fortunately for the Chinese in the long run, something major happened that forced the radical changes in the government needed to revitalize the Manchurian rulers -Civil War. The Chinese Emperor ended up fighting against very powerful military generals who attempted a coup which failed and devolved into heavy fighting. Chinese royalists managed to gain help in the form of Dutch and Italian mercenaries from one of the other players at the time which sold 'modern' firearms, artillery, and aided in the training of the Royalist forces.

When the large peasant-heavy rebel armies moved against the smaller, better equipped, and better trained royalist armies, bloodshed ensued and with the help of observer countries putting in some troops of their own in exchange for lucrative trade deals from the Chinese emperor, the Chinese managed to quell the rebellion, end the Civil War within three years, and begin the road to reconstruction. Fortunately, a forward thinking government which had realized it's mistakes in relying on its traditional views on combat began to start watching the most prosperous western nations far more closely. While I had an insulated economy, my trade deals were forcing interactions with the outside world which fortunately went rather amicably well. The Germans really were friendly at this point in the game and this was about two years IRL ago.

By the 1830's, news of the British Industrial Revolution came back to the Chinese, and inspired by western advancement in medical and civil technology, the Chinese royalty followed in hot pursuit, bringing about the Chinese Industrial Revolution sometime in early 1830. At about this time, Japan entered the fray and decided to be an edgy-boi. What happened was that the player in charge of Japan decided he was going to have his own Civil War, right next to a very militarized, and slowly industrializing China, and determined the best way to reveal this was to have the Shogun in charge of the military coup against the emperor (Japanese) send a poisoned letter to the Forbidden Palace which killed the councilor who opened it to inspect the contents. Cue absolute terror on Japan's side when they realized their attempt at seeming dangerous had just earned them 28 years of constant coastal raids, total denial of their seas, and what could have amounted to the full and total blockade of the Japanese archipelago by a very large and very expansive Chinese Empire which by this point held most of (if not all) of the Indochinese peninsula and parts of the Indian Archipelago.

America at this point didn't have the power to resist China, nor did the Germans, or really anyone else, and so they kind of left Japan to wither away under the continuous naval assault and siege. IRL, I was in Korea and had plenty of time in my off-hours from work to orchestrate and balance my actions and their consequences and effects, making sure to move only as quickly as I could manage, determining I needed to have someone govern the south of Asia (India, Pakistan, and the west Indochinese Peninsula), to lessen the administrative cost of holding so much land and human resources. Fortunately the Dutch decided to 'Louisiana Purchase' East India which hadn't been paying the dividends they'd wanted while starting to enter a cold war with the German Empire. By the time things went hot, they knew they'd need funds to protect their armies and so in the end the Chinese gained half of India simply by offering the right amount of Silver and Gold. Under the guise of liberation of Imperialist European powers, the Chinese orchestrated the reunification of India by seizing the British half over the course of a year-long conflict which brought an end to the Chinese era of expansion on land, and began Indian modernization as the Chinese Empire began to support them as a Client state.

Meanwhile, in the North, Soviet Russia had begun to pick fights with the Capitalist Americans, Germans, and Imperial Chinese which lead to the Silk Road Standoff, where a massive trade alliance was stopped by the united interests of the Americans and Germans, against the Chinese, Indians, and Russians. It was a sort of Mexican standoff for a few months before everyone reconciled and deescalated the conflict. Unfortunately, the Netherlands suffered for it and lost a lot of their territories to the Germans and the French. Meanwhile, in Japan, the Chinese invasion began en masse and within the year the entirety of the Japanese military caste structure had been thrown into disarray as the Chinese had swamped their islands suffering from plague, famine, and years of drawn out conflict with the superstate of the region. Everything looked pretty good for China until suddenly it came time for me to leave Korea IRL.

For one month and a half I had to focus away from the game, and during that month, ten years in the game passed. The other players in the game quickly balkanized my nation, let a newer player take over to kill off the Emperor, impose a military Junta, further divide China up, and in short do their level best to ensure no Phoenix could rise from the ruins of the largest empire that actually had ever existed in the game. The end result? They failed to do so, as I got secretly called back into the game by a friend, took over China while masquerading as a newer player, and swore fealty to the Soviets which had done by far the least actual damage to the Chinese (yay! a super pacifist Marxist player being not a Stalinist by night). This went on for about another five years before suddenly the Japanese suddenly made a surprise resurgence against the odds and began to preach extreme anti-China sentiments. Thinking I was a naive player they could easily overwhelm, they attacked me against the advice of literally everyone else because regardless I still had a vast numerical and geographic advantage.

This would be the Second Sino-Japanese War in 1889 and it is the conflict which revealed I was still in control and pretty much forced everyone to start taking the game seriously again. So, the story so far? It's been twelve years since the sudden resurgence of an extremely powerful Eastern China which has become almost completely industrialized in and around the Yellow Sea and along the Korean (Joseon) Peninsula. Using the momentum and lessons learned of the inadequacy of my still sizable fleet (thousands of older, smaller, sail-driven vessels of which I lost a handsome amount during the three month war), the Chinese built up a newer, more specialized fleet, built to counter the German and American navies, and the client-state navy of Japan which uses older, but still decent American weaponry and ships. Meanwhile, I managed to roll high enough to revolutionize factories, launched ahead in manufacturing and production capabilities, and has managed to create the navy made above.

TL;DR? Almost every major nation is being controlled by human players which initially didn't take things quite as seriously as I did in playing China. Because of this, I managed to swipe early industrialization, expansion, and modernization for the Chinese, forced most nations onto a backfoot when trying to deal with me, and successfully held out for fifty years until I had to go AFK for a month or so to deal with changes in my work place. During that time, they (the other players in the game) balkanized and neutered China as much as they could, failing to actually do so successfully and when I secretly came back in, managed to get some momentum going towards building up my nation as a regional superpower to deny European expansion on the Asian Continent. When I ended up getting attacked by the American client state of Japan, America decided to only intervene when they realized Japan had fucked up and was about to be invaded by the Soviet Bloc of China and Russia which exist because Russia is being played by a Marxophile. It's been twelve years ICly since then and now I'm fully militarized, mobilized, and modernized, the Americans and the Germans having never successfully been able to argue for my cessation of military build up due to the disadvantageous position they'd actually started from.

[United Earthlings]

So many things I could say, but alas only the following seems to be the most applicable.

At some point over two centuries ago, there was a major inflection point and history on the previous understood timeline widely diverge creating this "Back to the Future 2" alternative timeline where pragmatic historical realism no longer applies, a NS version Harry Turtledove novel if you will.

I will now apply my gamer experience to relate to what you stated above.

Because of this, I managed to swipe early industrialization, expansion, and modernization for the Chinese, forced most nations onto a backfoot when trying to deal with me, and successfully held out for fifty years until I had to go AFK for a month or so to deal with changes in my work place.

I did a similar thing in my first and to date only game playing as China in Victoria. Got to about 1893 and had to abandon the game, but it was quite fun game cheating as a Great Power China. It's unlikely you have the same issue I did of running out of national culture pops to convert to craftsmen and clerks to fuel that massive industrialization of China to speed up research of more advance techs.

Russia became a proto-USSR because the player who chose them is a Marxist IRL. He's maintained a pretty frosty relationship with most everyone else save for some of the more rogue pariah states from the start.

In my Russian games in Vic, I always turn them into a Constitutional Monarchy ASAP to keep those late game peskie socialists in check and the ones that do spawn get to say hello to my huge Russian army of bayonets. I also click no to the Crimean war event because a negative 50 prestige hit is better than any outcome that can be gained from going to war with at a minimum three nations two of which are Great Powers. It also tends to make the late game more interesting as now with a better industrialized Russia, the wackiness that tends to result from avoiding that Crimean War event sends the other nations into a tailspin. I once saw the Austrian Empire disintegrate without having formed the Dual Monarchy. From there it was simply a cake walk with my more powerful Russian Empire to snatch up some Hungarian provinces that had my Russian national culture.

Every wonder what a mid 19th century war between the British Empire and a newly formed Germany would look like that lasted non-stop for twenty years. I saw that in one of my Russian Vic games, which made about as much historical sense as what's going on in your roleplay with that Russian nation.

Realistic, No. Fun, Hell Yes!

[Vespertia]

How's this navy ratio:

2 Charles de Gaulle-sized CVN
4 LPD
16 DDG
12 FFG
12 KG
8 PG
4 SSBN
20 SSN

[Axis Nova]

I'm thinking of gettin' into the export business and yeeting out an MT missile frigate for nations that don't want to go to the trouble of designing their own.

For something about ~150m long with around 4000-4500 tons displacement, do the following capabilities sound plausible?

-40 knot top speed
-Stealth features
-48 missiles in modular bays (mix of antiair and antiship, basically whatever the customer wants to stuff in em as long as they fit)
-Deck gun, prob 57mm or so as that seems to be the standard
-Two hardpoints for point defense systems, which have dual purpose RAM launchers by default but can be fit with any local compatible Phalanx knockoff if needed
-A laser for zappin' drones, missiles, aircraft, etc
-Couple of ASROC launchers
-Helipad for an antisub helicopter
-6000nm range
-The proper electronics to be integrated into AEGIS systems/clones

Ideally it would cost no more than $125 mil. Think Tuo Chiang class meets Oliver Hazard Perry class, with a trimaran hull.

Thought I should ask since designing ships is very much out of my usual baliwick.

[Laritaia]

40 knots is excessive

[Barfleur]

Classification: Multi-purpose frigate (FFG)
Displacement: 5,250 tons
Length: 443 feet/135 meters
Beam: 52.5 feet/16 meters
Draft: 15.6 feet/4.75 meters

Propulsion: 3 x General Electric LM2500 gas turbines
Top Speed: 32 knots
Armament: 1 x 5-inch gun,
3 x Phalanx CIWS
1 × 48 cell Mk 41 vertical launch systems
8 x Harpoon anti-ship missiles
40 x Evolved Sea Sparrow anti-air missiles

Operator(s): Barfleurian National Navy

Ships in Class:
BNS Blackbeard
BNS Bellamy
BNS Roberts
BNS Howell Davis
BNS Condent
BNS Stede Bonnet
BNS Woodes Rogers
BNS Avery
BNS Hornigold
BNS Anne Bonny
BNS Mary Read
BNS Rackham
BNS Lafitte
BNS Ching Shih
BNS Roche

[The Akasha Colony]

I'm thinking of gettin' into the export business and yeeting out an MT missile frigate for nations that don't want to go to the trouble of designing their own.

For something about ~150m long with around 4000-4500 tons displacement, do the following capabilities sound plausible?

-40 knot top speed
-Stealth features
-48 missiles in modular bays (mix of antiair and antiship, basically whatever the customer wants to stuff in em as long as they fit)
-Deck gun, prob 57mm or so as that seems to be the standard
-Two hardpoints for point defense systems, which have dual purpose RAM launchers by default but can be fit with any local compatible Phalanx knockoff if needed
-A laser for zappin' drones, missiles, aircraft, etc
-Couple of ASROC launchers
-Helipad for an antisub helicopter
-6000nm range
-The proper electronics to be integrated into AEGIS systems/clones

Ideally it would cost no more than $125 mil. Think Tuo Chiang class meets Oliver Hazard Perry class, with a trimaran hull.

Thought I should ask since designing ships is very much out of my usual baliwick.

That seems absurdly cheap assuming anything resembling first-world labor standards and non-manipulated exchange rates.

A lot of features also seem rather unnecessary (trimaran hull, 40 kts, lots of standalone weapons) but that probably won't stop people on GE&T from buying it regardless.

[Axis Nova]

40 knots isn't really excessive for a modern frigate. Both the LCS and the Tuo Chiang beat that handily. The trimaran hull is the latest thing in IRL small ship design and allows both a wider hull up top and low drag.

OHP is about 122 mil, LCS's price is dumb due to dumb procurement practices, and the Tuo Chiang class costs a bit more than 72 mil but is strictly meant for coastal operations.

[The Selkie]

40 knots isn't really excessive for a modern frigate. Both the LCS and the Tuo Chiang beat that handily. The trimaran hull is the latest thing in IRL small ship design and allows both a wider hull up top and low drag.

OHP is about 122 mil, LCS's price is dumb due to dumb procurement practices, and the Tuo Chiang class costs a bit more than 72 mil but is strictly meant for coastal operations.

Correct me if I am wrong, but neither was the OHP equipped to be integrated with AEGIS (which is, I imagine, quite expensive), nor with a laser or stealth features (which are quite expensive, too), nor with a hull-construction, which is rather new and much more complicated then merry old Monohull. You see, the point of the OHP was, that it was cheap: A small and low capability vessel to escort convoys, landing forces and so on, cheap enough to finally replace the WW2-DDs and DDEs still in service or mothballs at the time.
Your export frigate will be neither cheap nor small. It will be expensive. Substantially more then 125 million NSD.

Also, one question remains open: What will your export frigate be for? Will it be a convoy escort? Submarine Chaser? General Purpose Frigate?

One more, little thing: You forgot to mention a sonar anywhere. If you have ASROC and an ASW-Helicopter, you might as well put a sonar on the vessel. Could be useful.

[Axis Nova]

Derp, forgot a sonar. I'll add that when I'm off mobile.

Tuo Chiang is stealthy, and as stated, cheap as hell.

[Laritaia]

40 knots isn't really excessive for a modern frigate. Both the LCS and the Tuo Chiang beat that handily. The trimaran hull is the latest thing in IRL small ship design and allows both a wider hull up top and low drag.

OHP is about 122 mil, LCS's price is dumb due to dumb procurement practices, and the Tuo Chiang class costs a bit more than 72 mil but is strictly meant for coastal operations.

The requirement to go 40 knots is responsible for the vast majority of the problems the LCS hullforms have.

Cutting the speed requirement down to a mere 30-32 knots makes things so much easier in terms of hull design, systems packaging, and powertrain design.

[The Selkie]

Derp, forgot a sonar. I'll add that when I'm off mobile.

Tuo Chiang is stealthy, and as stated, cheap as hell.

Why is the Tuo Chiang class Corvette so cheap? The reason is, to my understanding, that the TC is basically a fast attack craft with delusions of grandeur, not a frigate.

[The Akasha Colony]

40 knots isn't really excessive for a modern frigate. Both the LCS and the Tuo Chiang beat that handily.

Both were designed around short-range dash speed. This is a part of their operational concept and is why they are not conventional frigates.

Actual multipurpose missile frigates like Type 26, F125, FREMM, etc. have not bothered with these speeds because there is little use for them.

The trimaran hull is the latest thing in IRL small ship design and allows both a wider hull up top and low drag.

It's so modern that no one is bothering with it aside from LCS.

The benefits of a trimaran hull are outweighed by their drawbacks in larger combatants. This is why there has been no great rush to develop trimaran ships and why the vast majority of warships built today aside from a small handful of designs focused entirely on speed are still monohulls. The greater internal volume relative to metacentric height makes monohulls superior for holding lots of things like combat systems, crew, etc. Trimarans with fine hulls require large deckhouses to store the same amount of equipment which makes them top-heavy. This isn't a problem with a lightly-armed ship like LCS or a little missile boat, but is a problem when you're trying to fit lots of armaments or other systems in a hull.

OHP is about 122 mil, LCS's price is dumb due to dumb procurement practices, and the Tuo Chiang class costs a bit more than 72 mil but is strictly meant for coastal operations.

OHP is nowhere near as capable as this design, and was produced in the 1970s. So literally 50 years ago. OHP was designed from the ground up to be as cheap and simple as possible, and it was. This design... isn't. Certainly not when it has literal LAZORS.

Tuo Chiang is also a much simpler craft; it's $72 million buys you a tiny missile boat that doesn't even displace 1,000 tonnes. It has zero air defense capability (a single Phalanx mount hardly counts), a very basic combat suite, and very little open ocean endurance. Which is fine for Taiwan given that all they need it to do is hopefully dash close enough to a PLAN carrier or troop ship and loose a salvo of missiles before being blown out of the water. It's not exactly a main combat platform like a missile frigate would be in a major engagement.

Ships of similar capabilities to your design (FREMM, F125, Type 26, Akizuki) easily cost over $500-600 million.

Derp, forgot a sonar. I'll add that when I'm off mobile.

Tuo Chiang is stealthy, and as stated, cheap as hell.

Why is the Tuo Chiang class Corvette so cheap? The reason is, to my understanding, that the TC is basically a fast attack craft with delusions of grandeur, not a frigate.

Given that a Phalanx mount is already half the price of the ship, I'm betting that wasn't factored into the listed price since most armaments are furnished separately in warship construction.

Which is an issue when selling a ship if that ship is supposed to come with armaments (like most GE&T buyers expect). So the "finished" price should actually be much higher.

[Laritaia]

LCS is basically corvette capability, coupled with missile boat speed and frigate price tag.

There is a reason why no other nation has expressed interest in buying them in the same form the USN has.

[The Manticoran Empire]

LCS is basically corvette capability, coupled with missile boat speed and frigate price tag.

There is a reason why no other nation has expressed interest in buying them in the same form the USN has.

The US Navy also bought two different classes to do the job of one class.

[Barfleur]

Classification: Multi-purpose frigate (FFG)
Blackbeard-Class Frigate
Displacement: 5,250 tons
Length: 443 feet/135 meters
Beam: 52.5 feet/16 meters
Draft: 15.6 feet/4.75 meters

Propulsion: 3 x General Electric LM2500 gas turbines
Top Speed: 32 knots
Armament: 1 x 5-inch gun,
3 x Phalanx CIWS
1 × 48 cell Mk 41 vertical launch systems
6 x Harpoon anti-ship missiles
72 x Evolved Sea Sparrow anti-air missiles

Operator(s): Barfleurian National Navy

Ships in Class:
BNS Blackbeard
BNS Bellamy
BNS Roberts
BNS Howell Davis
BNS Condent
BNS Stede Bonnet
BNS Woodes Rogers
BNS Avery
BNS Hornigold
BNS Anne Bonny
BNS Mary Read
BNS Rackham
BNS Lafitte
BNS Ching Shih
BNS Roche

This is my first time making a ship design. Any feedback/criticism?

[Crookfur]

Classification: Multi-purpose frigate (FFG)
Blackbeard-Class Frigate
Displacement: 5,250 tons
Length: 443 feet/135 meters
Beam: 52.5 feet/16 meters
Draft: 15.6 feet/4.75 meters

Propulsion: 3 x General Electric LM2500 gas turbines
Top Speed: 32 knots
Armament: 1 x 5-inch gun,
3 x Phalanx CIWS
1 × 48 cell Mk 41 vertical launch systems
6 x Harpoon anti-ship missiles
72 x Evolved Sea Sparrow anti-air missiles

Operator(s): Barfleurian National Navy

Ships in Class:
BNS Blackbeard
BNS Bellamy
BNS Roberts
BNS Howell Davis
BNS Condent
BNS Stede Bonnet
BNS Woodes Rogers
BNS Avery
BNS Hornigold
BNS Anne Bonny
BNS Mary Read
BNS Rackham
BNS Lafitte
BNS Ching Shih
BNS Roche

This is my first time making a ship design. Any feedback/criticism?

it seems a bit over armed for the size, a 48cell mk41 fit would normally be found on a vessel around the 6000ton mark and two CIWS would be more than enough.

The missiles seem a bit odd: ESSM is normally quad packed into MK41 cells so its not clear if you are just using 18 of your VLS cells or you have an additional 72 ESSMs. harpoon can't currently be carried in the MK41 and is usually fitted in a pair of quad missile boxes. Now you could have developed a domestic triple tube launcher but it that would be a bit of a waste when the already developed solution is available. Most of your VLS cells will be occupied by Standard series missiles and maybe some tomahawks.

Some information on aviation capacity and at least the main radar system(s) would help.