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Manokan Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 2504
Founded: Dec 15, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Manokan Republic » Fri May 24, 2019 2:12 pm

The problem with these conversations is that it always devolves in to the more fundamental question of "why didn't they do X?". The argument that it was bad for some reason only holds water part of the time, and a lot of the times it was just because they didn't think of it, the equipment they used came from a specific origin or was widely available for some reason (usually national origin), or problems with logistics and mass production. A good example of it is this; why didn't most military's use a 7.5mm round instead of a 7.62mm round? The U.S., the Russians, and the British used it, along with a wide range of countries, so why that specific size instead of any other size? Why did they use a 7.62mm when they could have used a 7.4mm, 7.5mm, 7.2mm, 6.5mm, and so on and so forth. The question answers itself; because reasons. Another example with a more in depth explanation is; why didn't the Sherman use slat armor? For all intents and purpose, added extra layers of armor to the Sherman would have been easy enough to do. They welded on several sheets of plate armor to make it stronger, such as the with Sherman jumbo, and they upgraded the engine to be able to handle this new weight, so it was't like it was too expensive to add the extra armor or that the tank would have been too heavy. The new armor was exceptionally hard, and already had to be welded on, so why not just raise it above the armor slightly to make it more effective against anti-tank rounds and shaped charge weapons? The germans did this, the americans did this on some vehicles, so why not do this on the sherman? They had variants that did have spaced armor, they found spaced armor to be far more effective than improvised sandbags in the same role, so why not put a few sheets of metal on every version? The cost would be low and the effectiveness would be high. While we are at it, why not have more ammunition for the .50 caliber, racks for bazookas so the exposed crew members could use them more easily, a 90mm or at least 17 pounder gun and a host of other improvements that, at some point during the war, was made?

The simple answer that once it had already got in to mass production and they realized errors in the design or ways it could be improved, they didn't want to go back and change everything. Sometimes they just didn't even think about it or realize what was the best option until the end of the war. If you look at the Israelis who did use a lot of American equipment after WWII, they made several notable improvements, such as with the halftrack vehicles being fully armored over most of the body and using a more powerful 20mm gun, which was only slightly larger than a .50 caliber but capable of destroying a larger array of vehicles, or the sherman where they added a bigger gun. So, again, why not do this? The reality is military design, like all things designed by humans, is never perfect and subject to constant improvement. In Vietnam the U.S. used M60 machine guns that had insanely heavy bipods attached to the barrels, and by the time they realized how heavy and awkward it was to carry multiple spare barrels with bipods attached and how attaching it to the receiver of the gun, they had already made thousands of them and replacing them would be too expensive. With the M16, when they realized switching to a dirtier form of ammunition effect it's performance too late, that the plastic was insanely weak, that the gun wasn't sealed off well enough and that the magazines were unreliable, only after it had been fielded. When they realize that the M14 couldn't replace the BAR and every gun an infantry soldier would need, was this due to the fact the military was perfect? Well, no. Often times the better option is just simply not used becuase they didn't think of it first. It's why there are winners and losers in war, why the losing side incorporates techniques, ideas or equipment from the enemy (the M60 based partially on the FG42, which was based partially on the American lewis machine gun, that they rarely used), why technology evolves over time. It's a simple common sense thing.

So, as to why I think the lobster armor or other forms of armor could be improved, go ahead and take your guess as to why. xP It's not as if this stuff is the end all be all of existence, and new equipment isn't designed all the time. Also if you are the type who is confused about why I am talking about the Sherman, then this is going ot go right over your head. Basically, it's an example, to metaphorically illustrate the basic fundamental concept of why things aren't done might not be because it was bad, but just some other extenuating circumstance. The U.S. doesn't use the Ak-47, while Russia largely doesn't use the M4 carbine. Now, if they switched, would this have drastically altered the course of history; was it just, that the Ak-47 was so bad America couldn't use it for some reason, but everyone else did? Well, no. Plenty of pieces of equipment are serviceable in the same position, which is why every country tends to have their own main rifle, cartridge, gun and so on, and did for quite some time, without much issue. There's no reason why a 7.8mm or 7.5mm or 7.2mm round couldn't have been used over the 7.62mm, or 8mm or and so on and so forth. The reason is it just wasn't. It would be perfectly serviceable for some things that were never widely used, to be used, and this applies to a broad range of things. So in a create your own everything thread, if I decided to go with a 7.32mm round, there's no obvious reason why this would be impossible or even a bad idea, in the same way that better armor wouldn't automatically be bad. So, that's the reasons for the many examples and comparisons, to look back at various points in history. A country having a particular fighting style, caliber choice, piece of equipment etc. isn't due to one being automatically better than another per se. The Spartans were great at what they did, but could have used bows and arrows and cavalry to make themselves more effective, and they just didn't. There's a lot of variables to consider beyond what's best, or what was used, and there's no reason to automatically assume that something would be bad just because it wasn't widely used. The FG42, STG44 and M1941 Johnson machine gun were not that widely used in the war, but were highly influential on gun designs later on. The best weapon's tended not to be the one's that were mass produced, but the obscure one's people didn't go back and analyze until after the war. At the very least, that's my philosophy behind analyzing "what-if" scenarios, to look at other historical examples.


Image


Example of Sherman with spaced armor
Image
Image
Last edited by Manokan Republic on Fri May 24, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Ourisio
Attaché
 
Posts: 66
Founded: Jan 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Ourisio » Fri May 24, 2019 2:15 pm

you could always commission and pay for it as opposed to requesting
The Republic of Ourisio: A semi-isolationist democratic socialist, "muscular" parliamentary republic with hispanophone minorities, conscription and a world-class aerospace and tech industry in the far north. Famous for pioneering powered flight and bad food. Think "Norwayifornia" but more fighter jets and robotic arms.

Explore Ourisio
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Issues unclear: managed to kill the judiciary and fuck the economy through tax cuts

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Borovan entered the region as he
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1115
Founded: Dec 18, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Borovan entered the region as he » Fri May 24, 2019 2:23 pm

Ourisio wrote:you could always commission and pay for it as opposed to requesting


Site rules
Monetization/Gambling: It is against site rules to use money, a substitute thereof, or any good/service with equitable use (NS Store purchases, game keys or vouchers, e-giftcards, etc.) to incentivize or monetize any activity on NationStates, to include but not be limited to: joining or participating in a region, joining or participating in a thread, joining an alliance (roleplay or gameplay), etc. Similarly, it is against site rules to use the same as a "reward" for participation in any of the aforementioned or any "game," "contest," etc.

You can't pay an artist to do that here at least in NS.
Last edited by Borovan entered the region as he on Fri May 24, 2019 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Quaeg
Attaché
 
Posts: 94
Founded: Mar 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Quaeg » Fri May 24, 2019 2:29 pm

I'm afraid i'm no artist, but when I took a gander at your nation, I thought that the gendarmes' uniforms might fit quite nicely.

Image

If you have any skills with a photo editor you could easily add some green and your nation's flag over the arm patches. Apologies this is all I had to offer, just wanted to post it whilst it was fresh in my mind. Best of luck.
So, this is where I write a signature. I'll replace this with something else later.
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Overview. Just FYI, The flag's a sunset, not a sunrise, and the Quaeg is pronounced Kw-ay-g.

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Gig em Aggies
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7728
Founded: Aug 15, 2009
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Gig em Aggies » Fri May 24, 2019 2:43 pm

Ourisio wrote:you could always commission and pay for it as opposed to requesting

or you could just like ask someone on NS since flags & symbols are made for free for other players

here's something I whipped up its not as good as other people can do but its a least better then telling you to pay someone instead of just doing it. plus I don't care if you alter it because its yours if you so choose


https://ibb.co/17VV4mX
“One of the serious problems of planning against Aggie doctrine is that the Aggies do not read their manuals nor do they feel any obligations to follow their doctrine.”
“The reason that the Aggies does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the Aggies practices chaos on a daily basis.”
“If we don’t know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can’t anticipate our future actions!”

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Kassaran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10872
Founded: Jun 16, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kassaran » Fri May 24, 2019 4:16 pm

Borovan entered the region as he wrote:
Ourisio wrote:you could always commission and pay for it as opposed to requesting


Site rules
Monetization/Gambling: It is against site rules to use money, a substitute thereof, or any good/service with equitable use (NS Store purchases, game keys or vouchers, e-giftcards, etc.) to incentivize or monetize any activity on NationStates, to include but not be limited to: joining or participating in a region, joining or participating in a thread, joining an alliance (roleplay or gameplay), etc. Similarly, it is against site rules to use the same as a "reward" for participation in any of the aforementioned or any "game," "contest," etc.

You can't pay an artist to do that here at least in NS.

You actually can. Commissioned art has been frequently made and utilized as it has no gameplay elements and does not directly effect gameplay activities. By the same logic, you wouldn't be able to use the NS markets or have a ghost writer for writing certain pieces.
Beware: Walls of Text Generally appear Above this Sig.
Zarkenis Ultima wrote:Tristan noticed footsteps behind him and looked there, only to see Eric approaching and then pointing his sword at the girl. He just blinked a few times at this before speaking.

"Put that down, Mr. Eric." He said. "She's obviously not a chicken."
The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
The United Remnants of America wrote:You keep that cheap Chinese knock-off away from the real OG...

bloody hell, mate.
that's a real deal. We just don't buy the license rights.

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Iltica
Diplomat
 
Posts: 775
Founded: Apr 17, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Iltica » Fri May 24, 2019 4:31 pm

Alteran Republics wrote:Ready
to start foaming at the mouth
have a heart attack
see something unique and cool and be respectful to OP
for this?

([url=https://i.imgur.com/wnW1GAsl.png]Image)[/url]

... be gentle. :lol:

Looks cool, but assuming this is one of those "piggyback" mothership carrier plane/spacecraft combos. It doesn't really make sense for the mothership to be a scaled up version of the actual spacecraft since their flight envelopes are so different. Usually the mothership is an air-breathing super/hypersonic aircraft of some sort.
Last edited by Iltica on Fri May 24, 2019 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chaotic-stupid

Isms trading card collection:
Cosmicism
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Georgism
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Corindia
Minister
 
Posts: 2669
Founded: May 29, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Corindia » Fri May 24, 2019 5:05 pm

Kassaran wrote:
Borovan entered the region as he wrote:
Site rules

You can't pay an artist to do that here at least in NS.

You actually can. Commissioned art has been frequently made and utilized as it has no gameplay elements and does not directly effect gameplay activities. By the same logic, you wouldn't be able to use the NS markets or have a ghost writer for writing certain pieces.

I'm not sure that sort of deal could be made/discussed on the site itself though

Of the People, For the People

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Eisarnathiuda
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 132
Founded: Sep 05, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Eisarnathiuda » Fri May 24, 2019 5:23 pm

Manokan Republic wrote:
Example of Sherman with spaced armor



go to DeviantArt, pay some nerd. christ, it isn't that hard.
NS is dying, I vehemently loathe 90% of you, find a new fuckin' hobby.

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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25546
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Gallia- » Fri May 24, 2019 5:43 pm

Manokan Republic wrote:The problem with these conversations is that it always devolves in to the more fundamental question of "why didn't they do X?". The argument that it was bad for some reason only holds water part of the time, and a lot of the times it was just because they didn't think of it, the equipment they used came from a specific origin or was widely available for some reason (usually national origin), or problems with logistics and mass production.


This would be a fair statement if it wasn't already known the exact reasons why people didn't wear Grabenpanzers while attacking trenches or whatever. Unfortunately, we know why they didn't do it, and it's because "they tried to do it, it sucked, so they did something else instead".

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Sevvania
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6893
Founded: Nov 12, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Sevvania » Fri May 24, 2019 6:03 pm

Manokan Republic wrote:The Spartans were great at what they did, but could have used bows and arrows and cavalry to make themselves more effective, and they just didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippeis#Sparta's_cavalry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartan_a ... tic_period
"Humble thyself and hold thy tongue."

Current Era: 1945
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Austrasien
Minister
 
Posts: 3183
Founded: Apr 07, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Austrasien » Fri May 24, 2019 6:16 pm

Manokan Republic wrote:The problem with these conversations is that it always devolves in to the more fundamental question of "why didn't they do X?".


It isn't complicated.

The head, neck, thorax and abdomen are the site of 90% of fatal wounds. The face and neck are generally left uncovered or only partially covered because closed helms and gorgets are both extremely unergonomic and reduce situational awareness. The head alone is the site of about 40% of fatal wounds - for soldiers in the first world war whose standard reaction to shellfire was to duck in a hole even the torso was usually protected by the earth so it is no wonder they usually discarded the cuirasses that occasionally ended up on the front.
The leafposter formerly known as The Kievan People

The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong survive. The strong are respected and in the end, peace is made with the strong.

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Sat May 25, 2019 1:10 am

Crookfur wrote:Generally speaking you don't want anything attached to the barrel of a precision rifle other than the muzzle device.
This is why even the most barebones solutions have some sort of attachment point on the stock/body be it a short length of rail or a socket like you would see on one of the accuracy international rifles. Both solutions would be as fast and offer greater repeatability than clamping a bipod to the barrel.

Image
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Fordorsia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20431
Founded: Oct 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Fordorsia » Sat May 25, 2019 11:25 am

I feel like I can weigh in on things I am interested but I have no damn clue what is being discussed
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Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34249
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Sat May 25, 2019 1:04 pm

Fordorsia wrote:I feel like I can weigh in on things I am interested but I have no damn clue what is being discussed

We are presenting a counterpoint to demonstrate the suboptimal nature of the depicted positioning and mounting of a stability assistance device on a precision long range instrument in regards to its operational cycle.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Triplebaconation
Senator
 
Posts: 3940
Founded: Feb 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Triplebaconation » Sat May 25, 2019 5:29 pm

Military Vehicles of Lyneria, Part One: Utility Vehicles and Light Trucks

Image

Bonus:

Image
Proverbs 23:9.

Things are a bit larger than you appear to think, my friend.

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Austrasien
Minister
 
Posts: 3183
Founded: Apr 07, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Austrasien » Sat May 25, 2019 7:17 pm

Crookfur wrote:Generally speaking you don't want anything attached to the barrel of a precision rifle other than the muzzle device.


Shaky shake

To expand, barrels flex during firing. This movement causes the muzzle to dance around a bit, changing the point of aim. Good barrels for precision firearms are made to keep this to the minimum possible - they are literally tuned so the barrels resonant frequencies do not match the frequencies of the vibrations produced on firing. Attaching things to a barrel however change its harmonics. Sticking a bipod on a beautifully tuned barrel can bring the resonant frequencies of the barrel/bipod combination right back into the frequency range of the firing vibrations.

Since the barrel would need to be re-tuned every time anything is attached to it it is desirable to attach nothing to it which is not absolutely necessary.
The leafposter formerly known as The Kievan People

The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong survive. The strong are respected and in the end, peace is made with the strong.

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Rostavykhan
Minister
 
Posts: 2187
Founded: Sep 30, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Rostavykhan » Sun May 26, 2019 3:00 pm

Image

pew pew
LEARN TO HATE ; TOTAL HATRED FOR TOTAL WAR
LIVE, LAUGH, LOVE | FEED, SEED, SNEED
 

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Rostavykhan
Minister
 
Posts: 2187
Founded: Sep 30, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Rostavykhan » Sun May 26, 2019 9:22 pm

Image

vroom vroom.

Okay, time to rest now. My wrist hurts after making this and an AT rifle.
LEARN TO HATE ; TOTAL HATRED FOR TOTAL WAR
LIVE, LAUGH, LOVE | FEED, SEED, SNEED
 


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Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10829
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Crookfur » Mon May 27, 2019 12:15 am

Rostavykhan wrote:(Image)

vroom vroom.

Okay, time to rest now. My wrist hurts after making this and an AT rifle.

Much niceness.

Now all you need is an armoured version of this armed with your anti-tank rifle...
The Kingdom of Crookfur
Your ordinary everyday scotiodanavian freedom loving utopia!

And yes I do like big old guns, why do you ask?


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Kassaran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10872
Founded: Jun 16, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kassaran » Mon May 27, 2019 12:36 am

Gallia- wrote:silver ghost meet blue banshee

Call it the Dullahan Armored Car... I really actually want to start nailing down the aesthetic of the time period by studying the technology of that time. If I try drawing automobiles from the late 1800s into the early 1900's, they turn out looking like really messed up modern vehicles, and I'm sure it's because I don't understand transmissions or suspensions and the development process most people went through to get there. Then again, I could actually start at the development of relatively modern horse-drawn carriages and move up from there, but then I'd still have to figure out how the tractor came to be and whether or not it's appropriate.
Beware: Walls of Text Generally appear Above this Sig.
Zarkenis Ultima wrote:Tristan noticed footsteps behind him and looked there, only to see Eric approaching and then pointing his sword at the girl. He just blinked a few times at this before speaking.

"Put that down, Mr. Eric." He said. "She's obviously not a chicken."
The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
The United Remnants of America wrote:You keep that cheap Chinese knock-off away from the real OG...

bloody hell, mate.
that's a real deal. We just don't buy the license rights.

User avatar
Rostavykhan
Minister
 
Posts: 2187
Founded: Sep 30, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Rostavykhan » Mon May 27, 2019 12:43 am

Gallia- wrote:silver ghost meet blue banshee


I had a different name in mind, but "Blue Banshee" does have a nice ring to it...hmm.

Crookfur wrote:
Rostavykhan wrote:(Image)

vroom vroom.

Okay, time to rest now. My wrist hurts after making this and an AT rifle.

Much niceness.

Now all you need is an armoured version of this armed with your anti-tank rifle...


I really only wanted a civilian vehicle because I needed something that wasn't military-related for once.

Though, I might consider adapting it in the future.
LEARN TO HATE ; TOTAL HATRED FOR TOTAL WAR
LIVE, LAUGH, LOVE | FEED, SEED, SNEED
 

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Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10829
Founded: Antiquity
Ex-Nation

Postby Crookfur » Mon May 27, 2019 2:25 am

Rostavykhan wrote:
Gallia- wrote:silver ghost meet blue banshee


I had a different name in mind, but "Blue Banshee" does have a nice ring to it...hmm.

Crookfur wrote:Much niceness.

Now all you need is an armoured version of this armed with your anti-tank rifle...


I really only wanted a civilian vehicle because I needed something that wasn't military-related for once.

Though, I might consider adapting it in the future.

I can fully understand that desire.

It was just the cars of that era look so nice in thier armoured form when done right.

An alternative could be a stripped down open topped version as a scout car.
The Kingdom of Crookfur
Your ordinary everyday scotiodanavian freedom loving utopia!

And yes I do like big old guns, why do you ask?

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