NS Military Realism Consultancy Thread Mk X Purps Safe Space

[Purpelia]

I was thinking of something more along the lines of taking what ever magic the modern SPGs use to vary their charges and than make a mortar levels pressure version of that. Since like for an IFV you don't really want or need 300m super high angle indirect fire capability but like more of medium autocannon that can also lob shells if it has to sort of thing.

modern 155m shells and their propellant charges have fundamental structural differences with mortar shells and propellant, what you would in effect be doing is making a modular charge low velocity gun.

Yes.

[Husseinarti]

I was thinking of something more along the lines of taking what ever magic the modern SPGs use to vary their charges and than make a mortar levels pressure version of that. Since like for an IFV you don't really want or need 300m super high angle indirect fire capability but like more of medium autocannon that can also lob shells if it has to sort of thing.

Iirc mortars already have a system like this? At leaat 120mm ish mortars.

[Gallia-]

I don't imagine that what ever they do would be easily translatable to something like the 2B9 though without sort of killing the point of a light and small air transportable towed field artillery thingy. But at the same time it does make me wonder.... how big are those mechanisms anyway? Like, I've been wanting a gun-mortar like thing as IFV armament for ages but like I want automation.

automatic charge setting on a conventional charge layout mortar is basically impossible, non of the so called "Automatic" mortars like AMOS,NEMO, NLOS-M or Dragon Fire had it.

which if i were a betting man i would say is the real reason non of them ever get adopted in any significant numbers, they just don't offer much over a standard manually operated mortar with a fire control computer.

back when i was seriously trying to work out how to make a fully automatic mortar the conclusion i came to was to have fixed size charges and use variable pressure bleed to vary the power instead of adding or removing charges.

You would obviously have small bagged charges instead of the tail charges. There's zero actual reason for a gun mortar to have anything in common with an infantry muzzle loader besides continuity/intransigence/ease of mfg. Whether you want to argue this would constitute a "low velocity gun" or a "mortar" is a matter of semantics, since a mortar is just a high angle, low velocity artillery in the first place. I doubt it cares whether or not the charges sit on the tail or sit behind the round.

This would, in the end, be the most optimal method of producing a true breech loaded mortar. Modular bags worked for howitzers (and guns!) so they can work for mortars too.

[Laritaia]

i think at that point we're getting in to the realm of wired mutant weapons, like the "rifle mortar"

[Gallia-]

Breech loaded mortars are already a weird, and unnecessary, mutant of the dismounted infantry mortar and the howitzer TBH.

[Laritaia]

Breech loaded mortars are already a weird, and unnecessary, mutant of the dismounted infantry mortar and the howitzer TBH.

the dreaded Gun-itz-tar

[Gallia-]

Breech loaded mortars are already a weird, and unnecessary, mutant of the dismounted infantry mortar and the howitzer TBH.

the dreaded Gun-itz-tar

Too close to actual gunitzers.

The U.S. Army preferred "mortizer" for some reason.

"Guntar" is probably the closest to a dichotomous hybrid, although we can say that's just "howitzer".

[Laritaia]

well basically only one of these unicorn weapons ever actually entered service and even then i dunno haw many 2S31 Vena actually got bought

[The Akasha Colony]

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2007/gun_missile/GMWedPM1/EricsonPresentation.pdf

There isn't a clear explanation I can find aside from that number of rounds achieves the required probability of kill.

Looks like I'll just have to deal with it. Perhaps the burst size could be varied against other targets like small drones that are slower and more fragile than shells and bombs.

I don't imagine that what ever they do would be easily translatable to something like the 2B9 though without sort of killing the point of a light and small air transportable towed field artillery thingy. But at the same time it does make me wonder.... how big are those mechanisms anyway? Like, I've been wanting a gun-mortar like thing as IFV armament for ages but like I want automation.

Fully automatic loading systems for SPGs for both shell and charge usually take up the entire vehicle aside from a crew pod in the front of the hull, although this is mostly because if you're going to automate the entire loading process, there's no longer a reason to put a crew in the fighting compartment so you may as well take them out and use the extra space for more ammo/propellant.

I was thinking of something more along the lines of taking what ever magic the modern SPGs use to vary their charges and than make a mortar levels pressure version of that. Since like for an IFV you don't really want or need 300m super high angle indirect fire capability but like more of medium autocannon that can also lob shells if it has to sort of thing.

It's not magic. It's just that artillery shells have a fundamentally different arrangement than mortar bombs.

Mortar bombs are shipped with the maximum propellant charge wrapped around their tails, and before firing the operators remove however many they need to bring the charge down to the level they want (and discard the unneeded charges). This is the complicated part for an autoloader.

Artillery shells however always come separate from their propellant, which is rammed into the breech after the shell itself. This used to be a series of bags which were hard for machines to handle and read (because they were soft, irregularly shaped, and different zones required different charges) but nowadays come in hard modular charges, which makes it much easier for a machine to handle and ram into the breech. Now only two types of modular charges are needed, and these are simply rammed in different numbers based on the distance required.

The problem is that once you no longer need indirect fire and the ability to alter the arc of your shot, you no longer need modular charges and you can just use much simpler fixed charges. And once you use fixed charges, you use single-piece ammo, which means you can either use an autocannon's loading system (a linkless or belted feed) or a tank-style autoloader in a carousel or in the bustle.

[Austrasien]

Yes.

Variable charges are irrelevant for an IFV. Variable charges are only useful for high angle fire. High angle fire is only necessary when the target cannot be observed directly. IFVs simply don't need to be performing indirect fire on a regular basis; actual gunners/mortarmen are going to be much better at it and by dispersing the same weight of mortar ammunition among more tubes handled less effectively you are only creating the illusion of greater firepower. Really you are reducing it, the same weight of ammunition concentrated in the hands of those best able to use it will have greater effects even if fired from a smaller number of tubes (namely the mortar battery supporting a mechanized infantry unit).

[Gallia-]

The Arsenal System is God's Gift to the United States of America.

Do not let it die, Congress.

The Long Arm of the Serbian Shell, guided by hand of God all the way to Ankara, has nothing on this piece.

[North Arkana]

I love how ATCAMs range is only limited because of rules regarding weapons capable of being used as tactical nuclear weapons or something like that. But it's not as if Russia follows those rules, so the US might as well just turn ATCAMs into the long arm of god who can smack anyone within the same general nation-sized area.

[Allanea]

I love how ATCAMs range is only limited because of rules regarding weapons capable of being used as tactical nuclear weapons or something like that. But it's not as if Russia follows those rules, so the US might as well just turn ATCAMs into the long arm of god who can smack anyone within the same general nation-sized area.

Has not Russia officially pulled out of the relevant treaty? This would make the US free to do whatever.

[Gallia-]

I love how ATCAMs range is only limited because of rules regarding weapons capable of being used as tactical nuclear weapons or something like that. But it's not as if Russia follows those rules, so the US might as well just turn ATCAMs into the long arm of god who can smack anyone within the same general nation-sized area.

Army TACMS is limited because it's 1980s technology, not because of a treaty. You don't just arbitrarily flip a "war mode" switch and it turns into a Pershing 1b. Oka was a hair over 2.5x heavier, 28 cm wider, and almost twice as long to achieve a range about double Army TACMS with comparable rocketry technology and warhead fractions, although Army TACMS originally had an extremely high warhead fraction because the U.S. Army is obsessed with firepower and builds rockets with 1/3rd of their weight being bombs. Once they brought the warhead fraction down to something comparable to international equivalents (1:10 vs 1:3), the range doubled.

A missile with MGM-140's dimensions built today would probably have a rather piddling range of 450-500 km with the same warhead as the Block IV Army TACMS.

[Puzikas]

s h a m e

[Gallia-]

I am Pineconing towed guns. Get ready for ultra redundant 105mm spam. Got your M102, your Type 4140, and your G7. Battalion/brigade/division field howitzers. Type 4140 is basically D-30 at this point though, with an L/46 barrel. Weights are something like 1,400/2,200/3,800 kg. M102 lives mostly because he can perform the direct fire support mission that a 120mm mortar normally can't, and he can be towed by the 120mm mortar's prime mover with crew and ammo (which is either Volkswagen Type 183 or Phantom Badger).

The Long Arm of the Light Infantry is a supercharged "M198A2" [M198A1 is just the L/52 while M198 is IRL] howitzer with a L/52 barrel and increased chamber volume for shooting at 50+ kilometers. He can broach 55 kilometers with RAP. Unfortunately he weighs seven and a half tonnes because he is 1970s technology/a lardass [the actual issue is that the gun isn't strong enough to resist the zone six MACS charge, while M777 is apparently strong enough to do this, which is how it does 70 km instead of 50 km with the L/52], while M777ER shaves 40% of the weight down from him. He lives in the division artillery brigade alongside G7 ripoffs and HIMARS. He will be replaced by a 70+ kilometer version of M777, because Galla skips the actual M777 in favor of M777ER, and the entire cohort of guns is pushed down a level, so M102 is replaced by Type 4140, 4140 is replaced by G7, and G7 is replaced by M777ER.

M102 disappears sometime in the 2020s and is either recycled into razor blades or dipped in cosmoline vats for preservation for the Final War. M198A2 is definitely preserved because he still outclasses the bulk of enemy guns.

M198A2 reappears after the Atomic War of the 2070s when Galla's civil defense preparedness is put to the test and the Gallan Army has to fight superhuman exoskeletons with M16A1s, MBT-70s, M198A2s, a mountain of corpses, and tactical nukes. Christmas Tree and Animejet still hold their own against OPA superfighters of the far future, though. M102 might reappear but is quickly destroyed by Frisian Cybertroopers who can fire grenades further than M102 can. Fascism is still annihilated across the World Island because its always on "War Worship" switch fails to marshal as much of its economy as Galla's actually-a-switch "War Communist" switch does. The blue banner of Lenin spreads across the globe.

Still literally worse than Borschtpunk BT-7/Mosin Apocalypse Army though. Rather is Lutpunk MBT-70/M16A1 Apocalypse Army.

So basically it's the U.S. Army, but still wearing BDUs, and if the U.S. Army was just endless copy/paste of 1980s Minnesota instead of Future Somalia Actual Minnesota, and if the U.S. Army never went hard into Gucci gear and instead went hard into standard patterns and Eternal Fordist mass production.

Picture 1: Gallan soldiers c. 1975
Picture 2: Gallan soldiers c. 2075

The snow in the background of the 2nd image is actually atomic ashes. The snow in the 1st is actually just snow, but the soldier is pretending it is atomic ashes.

mfg. 1975 >>>> cybernetic stosstruppen

[Husseinarti]

I am Pineconing towed guns. Get ready for ultra redundant 105mm spam. Got your M102, your Type 4140, and your G7. Battalion/brigade/division field howitzers. Type 4140 is basically D-30 at this point though, with an L/46 barrel. Weights are something like 1,400/2,200/3,800 kg. M102 lives mostly because he can perform the direct fire support mission that a 120mm mortar normally can't, and he can be towed by the 120mm mortar's prime mover with crew and ammo (which is either Volkswagen Type 183 or Phantom Badger).

The Long Arm of the Light Infantry is a supercharged "M198A2" [M198A1 is just the L/52 while M198 is IRL] howitzer with a L/52 barrel and increased chamber volume for shooting at 50+ kilometers. He can broach 55 kilometers with RAP. Unfortunately he weighs seven and a half tonnes because he is 1970s technology/a lardass, while M777ER shaves 40% of the weight down from him. He lives in the division artillery brigade alongside G7 ripoffs and HIMARS. He will be replaced by a 70+ kilometer version of M777, because Galla skips the actual M777 in favor of M777ER, and the entire cohort of guns is pushed down a level, so M102 is replaced by Type 4140, 4140 is replaced by G7, and G7 is replaced by M777ER.

M102 disappears sometime in the 2020s and is either recycled into razor blades or dipped in cosmoline vats for preservation for the Final War. M198A2 is definitely preserved because he still outclasses the bulk of enemy guns.

M198A2 reappears after the Atomic War of the 2070s when Galla's civil defense preparedness is put to the test and the Gallan Army has to fight superhuman exoskeletons with M16A1s, MBT-70s, M198A2s, a mountain of corpses, and tactical nukes. M102 might reappear but is quickly destroyed by Frisian Cybertroopers who can fire grenades further than M102 can. Literally worse than Borschtpunk BT-7 Apocalypse Army. Rather is Lutpunk MBT-70 Apocalypse Army.

So basically it's the U.S. Army, but still wearing BDUs.

(Image)
(Image)

Picture 1: Gallan soldiers c. 1985
Picture 2: Gallan soldiers c. 2085

The snow in the background is actually fire suppressing foam to keep the post-atomic firestorm from rearing its ugly head again.

mfg. 1975 >>>> cybernetic stosstruppen

wow get rid of those Y straps get H straps like a man.

[Gallia-]

N o .
o
.

[Husseinarti]

N o .
o
.

wow i cant even take the gayalien military seriously with this disrespect

y straps = bad

h straps = yes

[Gallia-]

N o .
o
.

wow i cant even take the gayalien military seriously with this disrespect

What about when your M109 garbage is being plinked by 50+ km range 1970s howitzers?

The biggest of sticks.

When the Atomic War comes Galla will just crack open bunkers of Big Guns, Old Tanks, M16s, and ALICE webbing, and Do Work on the armies of reaction.

Helicopters barely present on the future atomic war battlefield because they're all destroyed by chemical lasers and air defense railguns when they get within 10 km of the front.

[Husseinarti]

wow i cant even take the gayalien military seriously with this disrespect

What about when your M109 garbage is being plinked by 50+ km range 1970s howitzers?

The biggest of sticks.

When the Atomic War comes Galla will just crack open bunkers of Big Guns, Old Tanks, M16s, and ALICE webbing, and Do Work on the armies of reaction.

Helicopters barely present on the future atomic war battlefield because they're all destroyed by chemical lasers and air defense railguns when they get within 10 km of the front.

ur changing goal posts

i win

[Gallia-]

What about when your M109 garbage is being plinked by 50+ km range 1970s howitzers?

(Image)

The biggest of sticks.

When the Atomic War comes Galla will just crack open bunkers of Big Guns, Old Tanks, M16s, and ALICE webbing, and Do Work on the armies of reaction.

Helicopters barely present on the future atomic war battlefield because they're all destroyed by chemical lasers and air defense railguns when they get within 10 km of the front.

ur changing goal posts

i win

uh no i win because my guns have such long range they can meet all your goalpost movement

forever

how many divisions does "sportsball" have?

[Allanea]

First they were like "we're going to unsheathe our knives and behead the President's family on the White House lawn".

Then they were like

"Don't shoot me! I was only a cook I swear!"

[North Arkana]

First they were like "we're going to unsheathe our knives and behead the President's family on the White House lawn".

Then they were like

"Don't shoot me! I was only a cook I swear!"

"Hey this guy says he's not with IS. All of Syria and I haven't met one IS member yet."

It'll be like hunting Nazis after WW2.

[NeuPolska]

First they were like "we're going to unsheathe our knives and behead the President's family on the White House lawn".

Then they were like

"Don't shoot me! I was only a cook I swear!"

"Hey this guy says he's not with IS. All of Syria and I haven't met one IS member yet."

It'll be like hunting Nazis after WW2.

I mean if they all go home and stop being threats, is that so bad? Perhaps by 20 years they'll have committed suicide out of remorse, or realize the error of their ways and live the rest of their lives peacefully?

I mean how many former Nazis turned around and went back to being sadistic assholes?