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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:57 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:Under what reasonable (or otherwise) assumption would the US Army not prepare for a scenario of battlefield signals jamming?


You make the silly assumption of assuming the US Army has reasonable expectations of future war.

It will get anally destroyed in the Next War, electronically anyway. USA will probably call it quits immediately after that and the Soviet Russian 14th Machine Gun Artillery Army returns home as heroes from the frontlines against Western Decadence in the Transnistrian TVD.

The USAF will be the only effective strike force of the US military, with all 300 of its F-35s, 150 F-22s, and 20 B-2s, which will contribute approximately nothing to the outcome due to lack of numbers and lack of capability, but not for lack of trying or lack of brain.
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Postby Allanea » Fri Aug 05, 2016 2:58 pm

project k is a much better example than starfish because it was done over a populated area and they burned down a couple power plants lol


Project K did not 'burn down a couple of power plants'. There are unconfirmed reports that there was a fire at TEC-3, which did not 'burn down' TEC 3 by any stretch of the imagination, since TEC-3, uh, stands to this day and has not suffered any recorded long-term damage to its functioning.

According to participants of the test, the last Project K shot, a 300kt explosion, disrupted radio communications for, quote, "an hour and change."

Yes, it's quite possible that EMP will damage some elements of communications (Project K disabled 570 kilometers' worth of phone cable and cut one long underground power cable).

But importantly, a country can easily prepare for these events in fairly simple ways which maybe modern countries don't do (although Russia has preparations for these emergencies, and I have grave suspicions that Israel and the US do as well).

It's very simple (well, it's harder to actually do, but it's not undoable): Have spares for major equipment pieces, store them in secure underground.

It's fairly inevitable that such an attack would heavily damage the economy, etc. But it's fairly possibly to avoid the worst things (postapocalyptic collapse and mass-starvation), and certainly I would'nt put it past an NS nation to do so.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:00 pm

a power outage in a city for a month is enough to probably depopulate it, unless you expect people to just sit in their homes without electricity or air conditioning or refrigeration or transport or whatever

they would just leave

you are grossly overestimating the ability to respond and underestimating the extent of such preparations necessary

a country the size of the USA would have like zero realistic chances of being able to avoid apocalyptic damage to the civilian infrastructure

hardening military infrastructure and suspending democratic rule of law is probably the only real option for some place the size of a continent

it is definitely possible to recover from such a thing, but in the mean time you are reduced to a third world country and no amount of preparation would really be able to avoid this, at best it might mitigate some of the damage

destruction of the banking system alone is probably sufficient to ruin a country

and no, it is not as simple as "build more transformers" or whatever

the lead time for such items can be up to half a decade, and at their fastest it's still six months, and the manufacture industry of such incredible niche products is very small and cannot handle tremendous volumes needed to replace all energy transformers

do you think if the usa had such a secret transformer stockpile it might use that to fix its decayed and inadequate power grid first? that alone should be evidence that such a thing doesnt exist rly

we're talking about massive things weighing up to 300 tons that require tremendous numbers to be built and stuffed away in bunkers or w/e? forget about it, it's easier to replace them as they become worn down, which is what is already done, which is still rare since they are so expensive

it might be possible in a country that has an industrial system designed like the soviet union, but not one driven by consumer demand or any sort of "sustainable" model
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:04 pm

A quick Googling suggests TEC-3 to be in Kharkiv, so no wonder.
What Sourcewatch describes as "Karagan power station" came online in 1977, which would be consistent with the previous site being irreparably knocked out by fire in 1962.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Ka ... er_station

Wikipedia isn't even aware of this plant.
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Postby Allanea » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:15 pm

Googling in English isn't really helpful on this topic.

Karaganda has two TEC plants - TEC-1 and TEC-3. The Wiki article on Project K claims TEC-3 had the fire, but clearly it's not the one.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0 ... AD%D0%A6-1 This here is TEC-1, founded in 1960.

Unsurprisingly, English wiki isn't good on things in the USSR.
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Postby Allanea » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:25 pm

P.S. The document that the English-language Wikipedia article links to claiming it to be the 'source' of the claim that the 'KAraganda power plant' was destroyed does not mention the destruction of any power plant, except for a 'military generator plant'.

In other words, there is no evidence that Karaganda had some power plant that was destroyed by EMP and even the 'source' that ostensibly is used as reference of this event does not reference it happening.
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Postby Meinkraft » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:26 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:If you need refueling, just use a tanker aircraft. Then you can just fly them from your home bases to any targets you might identify.


Yes, but you can't restock in midair.

Actually, I like the idea of a MOB. I'd like to make a ship the size of an MOB, per plans. Keeping the catamaran design and adding defense weaponry.

To lower the takeoff length required by the B1, I intend to catapult them. The ship will have two runways--for takeoff and landing, and storage for two to three B1s, along with a small helo.
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:32 pm

Allanea wrote:P.S. The document that the English-language Wikipedia article links to claiming it to be the 'source' of the claim that the 'KAraganda power plant' was destroyed does not mention the destruction of any power plant, except for a 'military generator plant'.

In other words, there is no evidence that Karaganda had some power plant that was destroyed by EMP and even the 'source' that ostensibly is used as reference of this event does not reference it happening.

"Military generator plant" referred to the final K test at least in the one that I read. "The test" was supposedly the first of the 300kt shots.

If the west was only told in 1992 "informally" about the tests, I doubt that publicly available information would be on wiki, least of all the Russian wiki (personal prejudice).
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Postby Allanea » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:37 pm

That's a bit more ambitious than what you've originally suggested.

So help me here.

You have a giant ship (or rather, a mobile base) two kilometers long.

It is so enormously wide as to enable two strategic bomber runaways (so at least 85 meters wide, and possibly more).

This large, enormous aircraft, is capable of launching - again, according to you - two to three B-1s. Their total bomb firepower is 170 tons of bombs. (Rounded up).

A very basic calculation suggests that an aircraft carrier that carries 30 SuperHornets can deliver 240 tons of bombs.

This is all on the assumption that the aircraft all sortie exactly once.

Why are we doing this again?
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Postby Allanea » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:39 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Allanea wrote:P.S. The document that the English-language Wikipedia article links to claiming it to be the 'source' of the claim that the 'KAraganda power plant' was destroyed does not mention the destruction of any power plant, except for a 'military generator plant'.

In other words, there is no evidence that Karaganda had some power plant that was destroyed by EMP and even the 'source' that ostensibly is used as reference of this event does not reference it happening.

"Military generator plant" referred to the final K test at least in the one that I read. "The test" was supposedly the first of the 300kt shots.

If the west was only told in 1992 "informally" about the tests, I doubt that publicly available information would be on wiki, least of all the Russian wiki (personal prejudice).


The "military generator plant" being destroyed is what the Englishwiki refers to as its source on the claim that Karaganda lost a power plant.

If there is a serious article somewhere detailing the loss of this plant, English Wiki does not reference it. The article it does claim as a source does not describe that event at all.
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Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:03 pm

The biggest impact of a HEMP attack would be high voltage transformers being destroyed by the E-3 component (aka the "slow pulse" or MHD EMP) of the the EMP which causes large currents to be induced into electrical power lines due to to the temporary distortion of the earth's magnetic field (Faraday's law of induction, electromotive force induced in a wire is proportional to the change in magnetic flux). Similar damage to power grids can be caused by geomagnetic storms which are effectively just the E-3 component of a high altitude EMP (A solar storm fior example). You can protect against this with "load shedding" procedures or by installing neutral blocking systems like SolidGround (which works by breaking the ground connection and providing an AC ground path to the transformer via a capacitor when the system detects a GIC event) in your transformers. The E1 component (the "fast pulse" caused by gamma rays emitted from a nuclear explosion ionizing air at high altitude) of a HEMP is also a threat to power lines and transformers because it will induce huge voltages into any electrical conductors but it's something that can be protected against with modern transient surge protectors. There's also the E2 (intermediate pulse) component of a HEMP but it isn't really a big threat because pretty much any commercial lightning surge protector will protect against the E2 pulse.

So you can protect your commercial grid against HEMP, the cost of putting SolidGround systems and high end transient surge protectors in every power station in your nation is probably pretty insignificant for any large NSMT nation. And If you're an NSMT nation you probably can afford to have an entire back-up power grid buried in a mountain range or deep underground just in case.
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Postby The Kievan People » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:05 pm

New Axiom wrote:Um, no. That's not how an EMP works

An EMP caused by a nuke blast is only a few miles wide and loses energy the farther it is. The higher it is, the less effective it is. Look up operation starfish, I think it was. That did knock out electronics in Hawaii, but since it was practically directly overhead it's impossible to tell really how far the EMP can go, but judging on how they work, not far.
But your iPad would be safe, if it has a steel case. As would your phone. If you have a steel car, your spark plugs would still work. Industrial computers would still work becuase they often have metal casings. Airplanes would still work becuase their all metal, and so would tanks and military bunkers.

All of these examples are examples of faraday cages.


You are right. Effects decay the farther you get from the blast.

But you are overlooking that once a massive charge is introduced into the power grid, it will begin propagating through the power grid. It can travel much farther through wires than the EMP effect can through open air, and in a worst case scenario like multi-megaton device over the east coast the charges induced into the power grid would be incredible. Way beyond anything they were designed to handle. The level of surge protection in a standard data center or server farm is not going to be enough. Damage would occur far outside the area of strongest effects.

Limited EMP tests have shown enough voltage can build up that even air gaps can be crossed and high-voltage insulators physically destroyed. Most computers, especially big servers and mainframe, are connected to the power grid and would be destroyed when their protection fails. This alone would take down most internet services. Cellphones unplugged would probably survive, but the cell towers wouldn't so its not really helpful.

I wouldn't call an HEMP the apocalypse, but the damage would be enough to permanently change the way people in a developed country live. Germany or Japan at the end of WWII would probably be the best comparisons. Recovery is possible but it would probably take a generation. For a country like the US where digital services are absolutely central to the economy the long term reduction in output would be very substantial. Things like financial trade and search engines would just move to other countries while the recovery was still grinding along.

I don't think people would desert cities or anything like that. There's really no where else for most of them to go.
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:07 pm

Allanea wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:"Military generator plant" referred to the final K test at least in the one that I read. "The test" was supposedly the first of the 300kt shots.

If the west was only told in 1992 "informally" about the tests, I doubt that publicly available information would be on wiki, least of all the Russian wiki (personal prejudice).


The "military generator plant" being destroyed is what the Englishwiki refers to as its source on the claim that Karaganda lost a power plant.

If there is a serious article somewhere detailing the loss of this plant, English Wiki does not reference it. The article it does claim as a source does not describe that event at all.

Following the links to Karaganda, which has a subheading for EMP event:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaganda#EMP
It cites this as a source.
http://glasstone.blogspot.co.uk/2006/03 ... space.html
You need to scroll some ways down, but it provides this passage.
The 1,000 km long Aqmola-Almaty power line was a lead-shielded cable protected against mechanical damage by spiral-wound steel tape, and buried at a depth of 90 cm in ground of conductivity 10-3 S/m. It survived for 10 seconds, because the ground attenuated the high frequency field, However, it succumbed completely to the low frequency EMP at 10-90 seconds after the test, since the low frequencies penetrated through 90 cm of earth, inducing an almost direct current in the cable, that overheated and set the power supply on fire at Karaganda, destroying it. Cable circuit breakers were only activated when the current finally exceeded the design limit by 30%. This limit was designed for a brief lightning-induced pulse, not for DC lasting 10-90 seconds. By the time they finally tripped, at a 30% excess, a vast amount of DC energy had been transmitted. This overheated the transformers, which are vulnerable to short-circuit by DC. Two later 300 kt Soviet Union space tests, with similar yield but low altitudes down to 59 km, produced EMPs which damaged military generators.
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Postby Gallia- » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:11 pm

what would you do in the city without banks? there would be no employment like the post war germany and japan that could be occupied with repairing physical infrastructure damage: it would just be a bunch of people gathering around rice warehouses while the army distributes flour or something from trucks

though i guess that probably describes the berlin airlift pretty well

so there wouldnt be anything for them to do in the cities either: you probably dont need a lot of bodies to dig up power cables with backhoes or whatever and the number of office workers who would be able to be pressed into working as linemen or something would be pretty small i imagine
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:18 pm

New Axiom wrote:Um, no. That's not how an EMP works

An EMP caused by a nuke blast is only a few miles wide and loses energy the farther it is. The higher it is, the less effective it is. Look up operation starfish, I think it was. That did knock out electronics in Hawaii, but since it was practically directly overhead it's impossible to tell really how far the EMP can go, but judging on how they work, not far.
But your iPad would be safe, if it has a steel case. As would your phone. If you have a steel car, your spark plugs would still work. Industrial computers would still work becuase they often have metal casings. Airplanes would still work becuase their all metal, and so would tanks and military bunkers.

All of these examples are examples of faraday cages.


Unfortunately, your iPad and iPhone would not function with "steel cases." Anything that so completely encloses the interior as to serve as a Faraday cage would also prevent all other electromagnetic signals from entering, such as, you know, the cellular networks or local WiFi. Which would render them rather useless for their intended purpose. This is why the iPad has a plastic section on the back, to house the antennas.

Meinkraft wrote:Yes, but you can't restock in midair.

Actually, I like the idea of a MOB. I'd like to make a ship the size of an MOB, per plans. Keeping the catamaran design and adding defense weaponry.

To lower the takeoff length required by the B1, I intend to catapult them. The ship will have two runways--for takeoff and landing, and storage for two to three B1s, along with a small helo.


You don't need to. With your extra range, you just fly home to restock, and do whatever maintenance you will inevitably need.

It's a longer distance to travel, yes, but you can just buy way more aircraft to make up for that rather than investing in giant floating targets.
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Postby The Kievan People » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:21 pm

Gallia- wrote:what would you do in the city without banks? there would be no employment like the post war germany and japan that could be occupied with repairing physical infrastructure damage: it would just be a bunch of people gathering around rice warehouses while the army distributes flour or something from trucks

though i guess that probably describes the berlin airlift pretty well


What would you do in a small town without banks? Going back to the land isn't exactly viable for modern urban populations. And many millions of elderly and disabled simply cannot leave, especially without electricity.

The urban population has nowhere to go. At least in the city they still have four walls and a roof.
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Postby Gallia- » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:34 pm

The Kievan People wrote:
Gallia- wrote:what would you do in the city without banks? there would be no employment like the post war germany and japan that could be occupied with repairing physical infrastructure damage: it would just be a bunch of people gathering around rice warehouses while the army distributes flour or something from trucks

though i guess that probably describes the berlin airlift pretty well


What would you do in a small town without banks? Going back to the land isn't exactly viable for modern urban populations. And many millions of elderly and disabled simply cannot leave, especially without electricity.

The urban population has nowhere to go. At least in the city they still have four walls and a roof.


well id be more concerned about population density than anything, since you just suddenly lack modern medicine and sanitation, im not sure how quickly that could be replaced either, unless the army is competent at their job and has a large number of field hospitals and portable gas generators lying around (as armies are wont to do [ideally]), it would be months before it comes back to large cities

and tbf id assume the latter would mostly die after a p short while

i dont really mean a return to agrarianism or w/e, but more just leaving the most dense portions of the inner city to more open areas

like going from apartment --> suburb or stadium shantytown like what happened in katrina

but i guess that doesnt really count as a migration except in the most academic sense since suburbs are still "urban" tho ):

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Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:43 pm

The only way you're damaging a nation's power grid to the point where the economy crashes and cities descend into chaos is with multiple high yield thermonuclear warheads detonating at high altitude which is what is needed in order to generate a powerful enough E3 pulse to knock out power stations. Assuming this is a US vs Russia/China exchange at this point you'll have a full scale nuclear war on your hands so the bank down the street being nonoperational is likely the least of your concerns.

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Postby Velkanika » Fri Aug 05, 2016 6:24 pm

The Technocratic Syndicalists wrote:The only way you're damaging a nation's power grid to the point where the economy crashes and cities descend into chaos is with multiple high yield thermonuclear warheads detonating at high altitude which is what is needed in order to generate a powerful enough E3 pulse to knock out power stations. Assuming this is a US vs Russia/China exchange at this point you'll have a full scale nuclear war on your hands so the bank down the street being nonoperational is likely the least of your concerns.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack

Someone tried to sabotage part of the US power and internet grids a few years back. I can guarantee that precautions have been taken to prevent a large-scale repeat.
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Postby United Earthlings » Fri Aug 05, 2016 7:15 pm

Purpelia wrote:By 1914 the complete armed forces would have also included an airship division and a river navy. No proper navy though since I am landlocked.


There’s no reason why a proper navy can’t be a riverine navy.

Basically for the cavalry I am drawing inspiration from the Soviet style Cavalry mechanized groups of WW2. I've always had a fascination with them as just frankly being cool. What's cooler than a bunch of horse dragoons supported by tanks? So the cavalry sort of just organically becomes more and more armored without officially changing anything.

But the infantry is not giving up yet. At least not until the late 40's. So during the interwar period and the 40's both are going to have their own separate tank forces. This is very much like the infantry and cavalry split in american pre war forces.


Then as the next step of the interrelation between the various doctrines of your military branches {army-air force, etc..} both each branches’ service culture and your nation’s overall one, your nation’s martial traditions and your nation’s concept of its “way of war” as they all combine to influence and shape your nation’s operational practice {AKA: Operational Art/Science}. In addition to the various service branch doctrines, your nation’s military organization should in theory have a central unifying doctrine that provides it with a common philosophy, a common language, a common purpose and a unity of effort.

As your military’s institutional concept of war develops and evolves through its interpretation of its past, its perception of present threats and its prediction of future hostilities. These concepts will encompass tactics, operational methods, strategy {strategies}, and any other mundane factors that will influence your military cultures preparation for and conduct of warfare. Your military intellectuals will draw on this culture of both the present and the past as they anticipate the effects of weapons in the design stage, of new tactical schemes, radical organizational reforms, speculation on possible enemies and battlefields, the relative merits of annihilation versus attrition, offensive versus defensive, firepower versus maneuver, military genius versus collective professional ability. This strategic service culture will, in theory, develop and cultivate the means and methods that will allow your nation to emerge victorious through its continuation of policy by other means.

Which schools tend to be more dominate in your nation’s military culture, the maneuverist or the attritionist? Do your forces stress Mobility or Firepower in its doctrine or does it try to strike some kind of balance between the two.

Also, since you’re adapting Russian/Soviet Cavalry Mechanized Groups does that also mean you’ll be adapting Pre-war Soviet strategies and operational methods like deep battle/deep attack?

And so by the 30's the air force decides it wants to have its own infantry to compete with the other two.


Hermann Göring would be quite elated that you’ve have adapted his inefficient use of manpower at the expansion of efficiency all in the name of parochialism.

RL example… Luftwaffe Field Division

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Since, the Red Army created four different TOEs for cavalry divisions and corps which beginning in the fall of 1943, these corps often operated with a mechanized corps or with rifle divisions and brigade as a cavalry-rifle group, usually under the command of a cavalry corps commander. By 1944 these cavalry-mechanized groups operated under a tank, mechanized and cavalry corps. Here is the TOE of a cavalry Corps for Jun 1941 and later Jul 1943.

Jun 1941 Cavalry Corps: Two cavalry divisions and a signal battalion for a total strength of 19,430 men and 16,020 horses with 128 BT-5 light tanks, 36-44 armored cars, sixty-four 76mm field guns, thirty-two 45mm or 76mm antitank guns, forty 37mm antiaircraft guns, one hundred twenty-eight 50mm and 82mm mortars, 1,270 vehicles and finally 42 tractors.

Jul 1943 Cavalry Corps: Three cavalry divisions, headquarters, antitank regiment, self-propelled artillery regiment, antiaircraft artillery regiment, guards-mortar regiment, two mortar battalions, signal battalion, training battalion, medical platoon, chemical platoon, NKVD platoon, field and veterinary platoon and a supply platoon for a total strength of 21,000 men and 18,000 horses with 117 tanks {69 T-34s and 48 T-70s}, 12 self-propelled guns, 24 MRLs (BM-13), one hundred thirty-two 76mm field guns, fifty-six 45mm or 76mm antitank guns {my best estimate would be 36 of the 45mm with 12 assigned to each division, the rest being the 76mm in the antitank regiment}, twelve 37mm antiaircraft guns, fifty-four 120mm and one hundred eight 82mm mortars, 84 DShK machine guns, 112 anti-tank rifles and finally 1,400 vehicles.

My budget constraints are basically what every nation had back in the day. Purpelia has a strong economy and all but no foreign colonies feeding it resources. And the interwar period was tough for all armies.


You can set your nation apart from real world events in an alternate reality. No Washington naval treaty, no Great Depression during the late interwar period, no world war 1 and the continuation of an early 20th century arms race. Or even multiple world war 1s.

Ardavia wrote:Are there any statistics regarding how many German tanks lost in WW2 were lost to ATGs, enemy tanks, etc?


I believe there is, but I forget where I saw the data at. The best I could do now is give you the losses per month by model type {Panzer I,II, etc...}

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Founded: Feb 18, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Pharthan » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:17 pm

Gallia- wrote:
Pharthan wrote:Ah, good, then most of the US Military is perfectly safe since it still uses largely Cold War tech.


You might think that, but it doesn't.

DDG-1000 uses COTS electronics, as does LCS. The US Army relies on a massive backbone of civilian electronics, commonly called "Android phones", to communicate and control its troops in battle.

You... You remember what I work on for a living, right?
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Velkanika
Minister
 
Posts: 2638
Founded: Sep 23, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Velkanika » Fri Aug 05, 2016 8:26 pm

Pharthan wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
You might think that, but it doesn't.

DDG-1000 uses COTS electronics, as does LCS. The US Army relies on a massive backbone of civilian electronics, commonly called "Android phones", to communicate and control its troops in battle.

You... You remember what I work on for a living, right?

Don't mind Galla, he's been baiting really hard the last few days.
The necessity of a navy, in the restricted sense of the word, springs, therefore, from the existence of a peaceful shipping, and disappears with it, except in the case of a nation which has aggressive tendencies, and keeps up a navy merely as a branch of the military establishment. 1
1Alfred T. Mahan, The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783, 12th ed. (Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1890), 26.

Please avoid conflating my in-character role playing with what I actually believe, as these are usually quite different things.

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The United Remnants of America
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17199
Founded: Mar 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The United Remnants of America » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:07 pm

A good. A coup. This thread series needed a coup.
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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20816
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Fri Aug 05, 2016 9:31 pm

Pharthan wrote:
Gallia- wrote:
You might think that, but it doesn't.

DDG-1000 uses COTS electronics, as does LCS. The US Army relies on a massive backbone of civilian electronics, commonly called "Android phones", to communicate and control its troops in battle.

You... You remember what I work on for a living, right?


Not on DDG-1000 or an LCS?

You realize Zumwalt and Freedom run on commercial IBM servers, with a somewhat disingenuous placement inside a shock-resistant cabinet, instead of using radiation hardened computers like more traditional naval systems. This potentially means they could be destroyed by nuclear EMP.

A Burke or a Nimitz won't give a fuck and probably just sputter a bit.

A Zumwalt, LCS, maybe even Ford, might completely shit the bed OTOH.

I suppose it's nice to think that everything is still EMP hardened, but it's usually better to assume the cynical option, and EMP hardening simply isn't a high net value add asset for a post-Cold War ship designed on a shrinking budget, with no foreseeable nuclear threat. The Cold War ended almost 30 years ago. DDG-1000 and LCS are very much products of the New World Order (one not involving potential atomic warfare), and designed with a mind for decreasing budgets and a reduced shipbuilding plan of the future.

Early on, maybe, it was planned to have a radiation hardened network, but now it's just a Red Hat server and some desktops inside some Faraday cages designed to reduce EMI from the (vaporware) Dual Band Radar and other electromagnetic sources from inside the ship. Wires/cables and other antenna mean that the Faraday cage is compromised obviously, and its probably more attuned to microwave frequency than the low frequencies of an atmospheric nuclear airburst regardless.

There's not much reason to believe that the next generation of US Navy ships have computing environments designed to survive nuclear attack. They're based on commercial hardware available from civilian manufacturers as a cost-cutting measure in the face of ever shrinking budgets, and there isn't really a nuclear threat that exists anymore. Is it possible the Zumwalt has hardened computers? Sure. It's equally possible they decided it wasn't important, because there's no realistic threat of nuclear attack, and they needed to save money and time to try to fit in things like CG-21, and a radiation hardened computer is a really time expensive investment that can be avoided by using commercial OFS equivalents.

This is already done, in practice, by the US Army who uses commercial Samsung phones as the centerpiece of its "Nett Warrior" (formerly Objective Force Warrior formerly Land/Air Warrior) running a in-house distribution of Android OS. A lot of the communications stuff that modern militaries use isn't really built to the same standards it used to be.

The only place you can know for certain that radiation hardening is done is space nowadays. Everything else is probably too expensive.

OTOH the radiation hardening of a warship might depend a lot more on sealing hatches and good emission control than I'm giving credit for, rather than whether or not the computer chips are hardened, and that is the part that might be a glimmer of hope I guess, since I doubt Zumwalt is a slouch on that front.

OTOOH, TREE means that rad hardened chips are still very important, because you will get boned in the butt by the x-ray/gamma rays of an atomic blast. No clue how close this would need to be to have a serious effect, though, but there are probably ERWs specifically for degrading the effectiveness of battlegroup escorts through transient radiation effects.

Zumwalt is a budget ship though, so I'm going to hedge my bets and assume it'll shit the bed the moment a nuke goes off close enough to affect it with neutrons. Good thing it isn't the fleet escort, OTOH the fleet escorts might have commercial chips built into them instead of RH chips since the intervening period of the end of the Cold War.
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri Aug 05, 2016 11:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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New Axiom
Minister
 
Posts: 2045
Founded: Aug 22, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby New Axiom » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:49 pm

Not sure if this is the place for this question, but I'm pretty sure it is.

Is it logical to train your politicians-especially your leader-in firearm usage?
In New Axiom, our leader and many Imperial officials are trained in firearm usage to such a degree that a gunfight with one of them would rival the gunplay in the film Equilibrium. The Emporer and Ministers each carry two of my nations fictional version of the Desert Eagle and four extra magazines in visible hip holsters, even on international diplomatic duties. The reason for this is to discourage assassination attempts. Our politicians uniform is also armored and include visible knee high armored boots with knee pads, and their knee length trench coats use concealed armored played along the sides, chest, and back. Although not visible, their shape and thickness can be seen through the coat. I'm pretty sure this isn't exactly realistic, but considering my country is very hostile and aggressive, it makes sense. What do you guys think?
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