But that building may be occupied by an enemy, or there might be insufficient lighting...
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by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:35 pm
by Taihei Tengoku » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:37 pm
by Lamoni » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:39 pm
But that building may be occupied by an enemy, or there might be insufficient lighting...
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."
Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.
Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.
by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:45 pm
Lamoni wrote:Risk is part and parcel of combat. If you're going to be stopped that easily, you might as well not fight.
by Lamoni » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:46 pm
Well, let's reduce that risk by provisioning as much information as conveniently as possible.
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."
Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.
Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.
by The Akasha Colony » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:47 pm
Chinese Peoples wrote:Nobody will be playing Crysis with the Quadro M620 (I didn't pick the GTX 1080). The battery that I've specified would actually out-perform that of the Panasonic laptop.
Well, obviously people will be keeping an eye over that consideration when they're connecting.
I personally think, given the amount of effort that this nation's armed forces has expended to invest in technology, providing 3D modelling of terrain/buildings in certain localities, prepared in advance by some form of automatically surveying technology (akin to Google Maps street view or Google Earth), will not be out of the question.
I see; they will be adopted.
Chinese Peoples wrote:But that building may be occupied by an enemy, or there might be insufficient lighting...
by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:04 pm
The Akasha Colony wrote:Chinese Peoples wrote:Nobody will be playing Crysis with the Quadro M620 (I didn't pick the GTX 1080). The battery that I've specified would actually out-perform that of the Panasonic laptop.
They can, actually. I ran Crysis on a 256 MB laptop GPU back in the day. The battery you specified is barely larger than the Panasonic's, but the Panasonic isn't powering a GPU and 1080p screen.
The Akasha Colony wrote:Well, obviously people will be keeping an eye over that consideration when they're connecting.
Are your soldiers Neo? Can they see cyber threats with their eyes?
If they're regular humans then they can't see malicious code with their naked eyes, and therefore they'll be told to treat any device they find or that isn't military-issued as potentially compromised. And therefore leave it alone unless they are ordered to recover it, in which case it'll be sent back to analysts who can securely remove whatever data they're after.
The Akasha Colony wrote:I personally think, given the amount of effort that this nation's armed forces has expended to invest in technology, providing 3D modelling of terrain/buildings in certain localities, prepared in advance by some form of automatically surveying technology (akin to Google Maps street view or Google Earth), will not be out of the question.
You don't need a GPU to render Google Maps.
The Akasha Colony wrote:They need to do that reconnaissance anyway otherwise all they're looking at is a "virtualized 3D space" of an empty room. It's not hugely helpful to say "here's what Google says this room looked like 3 years ago when the last Google Spaces guy walked through it. But otherwise we have no idea where the enemy is, or whether there have been any changes to the room. Maybe the owners decided to renovate it or something. Who knows?"
by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:13 pm
Lamoni wrote:Well, let's reduce that risk by provisioning as much information as conveniently as possible.
Hint: You can provide a soldier with all the information that they will need, via tablet. And that if you absolutely *MUST* emit. Soldiers have training. Trust them to do their jobs without constant badgering, lest they stop listening to higher command.
by Lamoni » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:14 pm
Am I to understand that providing a 3D model of a certain and perhaps complex space is of no value to people who may be fighting through it? There's also the possibility that it has not been renovated, in which case the model would still be accurate.
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."
Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.
Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.
by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:18 pm
Lamoni wrote:Am I to understand that providing a 3D model of a certain and perhaps complex space is of no value to people who may be fighting through it? There's also the possibility that it has not been renovated, in which case the model would still be accurate.
Where are you going to get a 3D model of every building that your forces fight in, whether at home, or abroad? Where are you going to get information on where enemy forces might be in said structure? How are you going to account for building damage or renovations that might have taken place since the last (if any) 3D scans have taken place in said building? You need to take these things under consideration before throwing them out there.
Lamoni wrote:And no, making these laptops for personal use makes even less sense.
by Lamoni » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:20 pm
For example, if they are fighting in domestic territory. It's like an upgraded version of a map. This information can be collected from the floor plans registered by civil agencies when buildings were built and land surveyed. Renovations aren't generally going to alter the structural components of a building. Like if you click on this bit, it says, "Office building, open floor plan", so you can expect cubicles inside.
Licana on the M-21A2 MBT: "Well, it is one of the most badass tanks on NS."
Vortiaganica: Lamoni I understand fully, of course. The two (Lamoni & Lyras) are more inseparable than the Clinton family and politics.
Triplebaconation: Lamoni commands a quiet respect that carries its own authority. He is the Mandela of NS.
by Allanea » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:23 pm
These aren't soldier-issued laptops though, they're meant to stay in the truck and be used by anyone assigned to a specific role in HQ. Which is why they're also connected to the secure data network that personal devices would be kept well away from.
Am I to understand that providing a 3D model of a certain and perhaps complex space is of no value to people who may be fighting through it? There's also the possibility that it has not been renovated, in which case the model would still be accurate.
by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:25 pm
Lamoni wrote:For example, if they are fighting in domestic territory. It's like an upgraded version of a map. This information can be collected from the floor plans registered by civil agencies when buildings were built and land surveyed. Renovations aren't generally going to alter the structural components of a building. Like if you click on this bit, it says, "Office building, open floor plan", so you can expect cubicles inside.
Nice job failing to answer any of my questions.
by Herador » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:27 pm
Allanea wrote:These aren't soldier-issued laptops though, they're meant to stay in the truck and be used by anyone assigned to a specific role in HQ. Which is why they're also connected to the secure data network that personal devices would be kept well away from.
Soldiers and offficers do get issued laptops. It certainly occurs in the IDF. They sign for these laptops, and - in the cases of secure information being used on them - also separately sign for a secure identification card for use in the laptops (which is regularly replaced, for safety reasons).
The battalion headquarters does use laptops and not 'work stations' whenever the battalion is in the field. These things are all facts. I have been involved with these laptops directly as part of my duties, have issued them to people and had the people sign for them.Am I to understand that providing a 3D model of a certain and perhaps complex space is of no value to people who may be fighting through it? There's also the possibility that it has not been renovated, in which case the model would still be accurate.
I'm not sure why it needs to be 3D, but it is indeed super-useful.
by The Corparation » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:31 pm
Nuclear Death Machines Here (Both Flying and Orbiting) Orbital Freedom Machine Here | A Subsidiary company of Nightkill Enterprises Inc. | Weekly words of wisdom: Nothing is more important than waifus.- Gallia- |
Making the Nightmare End | WARNING: This post contains chemicals known to the State of CA to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. - Prop 65, CA Health & Safety | This Cell is intentionally blank. |
by Allanea » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:35 pm
Chinese Peoples wrote:Lamoni wrote:
Nice job failing to answer any of my questions.
Well you're not going to know where the enemy are anyway. But then it strikes me as odd that knowing the interior of a building wouldn't help whatever operation that is to occur in that building. What happens if the building is large and available manpower is limited, so a blanket search is not practicable?
The models can be constructed digitally, I think, by software; it isn't such a large mental leap when the plans for each floor are already available to the minutest detail in construction regulatory agencies. And, yes, you are required to submit floor plans to the agency when you're applying for a construction/alteration permit.
by The Akasha Colony » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:36 pm
Chinese Peoples wrote:It has hot-swappable batteries.
The processor is not quite powerful enough to run the latest versions of Crysis, and who would want to bring outdated games into the field anyway? Why play a FPS when you're currently in a FPS?
The Akasha Colony wrote:Which will still be connected to their devices by their original interfaces, such as parallel ports.
But you will probably need one to show 3D models properly.
Am I to understand that providing a 3D model of a certain and perhaps complex space is of no value to people who may be fighting through it? There's also the possibility that it has not been renovated, in which case the model would still be accurate.
Chinese Peoples wrote:For example, if they are fighting in domestic territory. It's like an upgraded version of a map. This information can be collected from the floor plans registered by civil agencies when buildings were built and land surveyed. Renovations aren't generally going to alter the structural components of a building. Like if you click on this bit, it says, "Office building, open floor plan", so you can expect cubicles inside.
Chinese Peoples wrote:Suppose if this laptop is for personal use; would that be more sensible?
Chinese Peoples wrote:Well you're not going to know where the enemy are anyway. But then it strikes me as odd that knowing the interior of a building wouldn't help whatever operation that is to occur in that building. What happens if the building is large and available manpower is limited, so a blanket search is not practicable?
The models can be constructed digitally, I think, by software; it isn't such a large mental leap when the plans for each floor are already available to the minutest detail in construction regulatory agencies. And, yes, you are required to submit floor plans to the agency when you're applying for a construction/alteration permit.
by NeuPolska » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:38 pm
Kar-Esseria wrote:Who is that and are they female because if not then they can go make love to their hand.
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Go home Polska wins NS.
United Mongol Hordes wrote:Polska isn't exactly the nicest guy in the world
Impaled Nazarene wrote:Hurd you miss the point more than Polska misses Poland.
Rhodesialund wrote:when you have Charlie ten feet away or something operating operationally.
Nirvash Type TheEND wrote:Gayla is living in 1985 but these guys are already in 1916
by Allanea » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:40 pm
by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:42 pm
The Corparation wrote:Chinese Peoples you're significantly overestimating both the level of detail of any models that might be rendered and also the hardware needed to render such models. I have a 5 year old Thinkpad x220T next to me on my desk. Hardware wise the guts are probably comparable what you might see in a military issued laptop. Its exactly the kind of laptop a military might pick if they want a COTS product. It lacks a GPU, 1080p screen, and has half the ram cpu specified. A Slower CPU as well. It can render 3d models just fine. Well at least the sort of low details crappy 3d models that any military software you're thinking of would use.
by The Corparation » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:50 pm
Chinese Peoples wrote:The Corparation wrote:Chinese Peoples you're significantly overestimating both the level of detail of any models that might be rendered and also the hardware needed to render such models. I have a 5 year old Thinkpad x220T next to me on my desk. Hardware wise the guts are probably comparable what you might see in a military issued laptop. Its exactly the kind of laptop a military might pick if they want a COTS product. It lacks a GPU, 1080p screen, and has half the ram cpu specified. A Slower CPU as well. It can render 3d models just fine. Well at least the sort of low details crappy 3d models that any military software you're thinking of would use.
I understand that; yet in 5 year's time, they will be 5 years old. These laptops are to be issued this year, and who knows what the future will yield? I suppose future-proofing also goes in the military.
I've selected the Xeon processor specifically due to its architecture and support for more advanced security features, I gather; the GPU consumes only a (very) modest amount of power but is positioned to assist the relatively low-end CPU in graphical display, which is what I am currently propounding. The 1080p screen might be replaced with a 1366 by 768 TN if people insist, but it would be easier to see larger models at one glance with a higher resolution in the screen.
Nuclear Death Machines Here (Both Flying and Orbiting) Orbital Freedom Machine Here | A Subsidiary company of Nightkill Enterprises Inc. | Weekly words of wisdom: Nothing is more important than waifus.- Gallia- |
Making the Nightmare End | WARNING: This post contains chemicals known to the State of CA to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. - Prop 65, CA Health & Safety | This Cell is intentionally blank. |
by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:54 pm
The Akasha Colony wrote:Chinese Peoples wrote:It has hot-swappable batteries.
The processor is not quite powerful enough to run the latest versions of Crysis, and who would want to bring outdated games into the field anyway? Why play a FPS when you're currently in a FPS?
Crysis can run on a 2007-era Core 2 Duo. It can definitely run on a Haswell.
The Akasha Colony wrote:The Akasha Colony wrote:Which will still be connected to their devices by their original interfaces, such as parallel ports.
Data analysts will have their own special equipment so it's hardly relevant whether front line soldiers have serial or parallel ports with them because they won't be doing anything but packing up the devices and shipping them to the rear. Do you think SEAL Team 6 sat down with their laptops in bin Laden's compound to sort through the data on the spot?
The Akasha Colony wrote:But you will probably need one to show 3D models properly.
You don't. You really, really don't. Unless you're playing fairly intensive 3D games, modern integrated GPUs are far more than you need. If my nearly two-year-old smartphone can render 3D videos of weeb idols dancing you can easily render any 3D maps you can expect to find. Anything more intensive than this is simply irrelevant to soldiers on the ground. A 3D map so detailed as to require a GPU is an actual waste of data, bandwidth, and battery life.
The Akasha Colony wrote:Am I to understand that providing a 3D model of a certain and perhaps complex space is of no value to people who may be fighting through it? There's also the possibility that it has not been renovated, in which case the model would still be accurate.
It is of limited value and this value does not justify the mass-issuing of laptops. Even if it were of critical value, you would only need a single device per squad or something because only the commanders need to know how to come up with a plan, everyone else just needs to know how to follow orders. And viewing a 3D schematic doesn't require a laptop, it can easily be done on a tablet or even a reasonably sized phone.
The Akasha Colony wrote:The problem is that a 3D map is only marginally more useful than a 2D floor plan which will already highlight all of the relevant features in the room.Chinese Peoples wrote:For example, if they are fighting in domestic territory. It's like an upgraded version of a map. This information can be collected from the floor plans registered by civil agencies when buildings were built and land surveyed. Renovations aren't generally going to alter the structural components of a building. Like if you click on this bit, it says, "Office building, open floor plan", so you can expect cubicles inside.
Cubicles are actually an extremely easy way to render this system useless. They aren't structural and will be moved frequently according to the needs of the office yet provide people hiding in the building plenty of cover. So all an attacking force will know is "there are cubicles, and we have no idea how they're arranged because they've probably been shifted" They don't need a 3D map for that.
The Akasha Colony wrote:Chinese Peoples wrote:Suppose if this laptop is for personal use; would that be more sensible?
Why bother? Let them buy their own if they want one. Most will probably not, because these days mobile devices have overtaken laptops in terms of recreational use. Most people spend far more time using their tablets and phones than using a full PC of any sort.
The Akasha Colony wrote:Chinese Peoples wrote:Well you're not going to know where the enemy are anyway. But then it strikes me as odd that knowing the interior of a building wouldn't help whatever operation that is to occur in that building. What happens if the building is large and available manpower is limited, so a blanket search is not practicable?
If you don't know where the enemy is you'll have to do a blanket search anyway. If manpower is so limited, you don't have time to sit around perusing 3D models, either. You'd be better served using that time to actually search the building.
The Akasha Colony wrote:The models can be constructed digitally, I think, by software; it isn't such a large mental leap when the plans for each floor are already available to the minutest detail in construction regulatory agencies. And, yes, you are required to submit floor plans to the agency when you're applying for a construction/alteration permit.
So you need to stop and sort through the entire database of buildings to try to pull up the right one and hope no one in the bureaucracy fucked up and lost the plans or that nothing happened to the data, and that you have a reliable enough data connection, and enough time to browse through an entire building's floor plans. It's great if you plan on assaulting a building next week. Not as great if you have to assault that building right now.
by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:58 pm
The Corparation wrote:Chinese Peoples wrote:I understand that; yet in 5 year's time, they will be 5 years old. These laptops are to be issued this year, and who knows what the future will yield? I suppose future-proofing also goes in the military.
I've selected the Xeon processor specifically due to its architecture and support for more advanced security features, I gather; the GPU consumes only a (very) modest amount of power but is positioned to assist the relatively low-end CPU in graphical display, which is what I am currently propounding. The 1080p screen might be replaced with a 1366 by 768 TN if people insist, but it would be easier to see larger models at one glance with a higher resolution in the screen.
There is no reason why future software for the same purpose would be that much more resource intensive than current software. There just isn't a need for an infantryman to have software that lets him render the building he's in at 1080p and 60 fps. A bare bones model is all he needs and is probably the most you'd even be able to get of the building. There is zero need for a GPU. As Akasha pointed out this is within the capabilities of most smartphone let alone a cheap laptop.
by The Akasha Colony » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:05 pm
Chinese Peoples wrote:I understand that; yet in 5 year's time, they will be 5 years old. These laptops are to be issued this year, and who knows what the future will yield? I suppose future-proofing also goes in the military.
I've selected the Xeon processor specifically due to its architecture and support for more advanced security features, I gather; the GPU consumes only a (very) modest amount of power but is positioned to assist the relatively low-end CPU in graphical display, which is what I am currently propounding. The 1080p screen might be replaced with a 1366 by 768 TN if people insist, but it would be easier to see larger models at one glance with a higher resolution in the screen.
Chinese Peoples wrote:There surely must be situations where such a capability is useful. What if they are deployed to a foreign place, where printers only connect via parallel port?
I don't have experience with an integrated GPU within the past few years, but of the discrete cards that I have used, all of them did have at least a marginal and positive impact on the computer's graphical performance with compared to a system without one. Models take time to load, and having an appropriate accelerator can reduce the amount of time thus spent.
And if that commander loses his laptop (or dies or breaks it out of frustratoin) and needs to borrow another from someone else?
Well, that perhaps implies there are also buildings without cubicles.
Why search the building when you can just use your map and get to the target immediately?
And why is it that commanders never make mistakes while bureaucrats do? There are 3G networks available in almost every metropolitan area as of this year, and I fail to see how the military can't take advantage of this resource when designing their hardware. It would be great just to pull up a file from a central server of the building in front of you and find out that the only entrance is through the garage, which can be accessed through a wind vent, and the doors on the ground floor are fake.
Plus, I just came back from hiatus. I want to issue stuff.
by Chinese Peoples » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:18 pm
The Akasha Colony wrote:I've selected the Xeon processor specifically due to its architecture and support for more advanced security features, I gather; the GPU consumes only a (very) modest amount of power but is positioned to assist the relatively low-end CPU in graphical display, which is what I am currently propounding. The 1080p screen might be replaced with a 1366 by 768 TN if people insist, but it would be easier to see larger models at one glance with a higher resolution in the screen.
The GPU consumes a significant amount of power when in use. More than the CPU. And it still draws power at idle, albeit obviously far less. My Core i7 has a TDP of 88W, my R9 290 has a TDP of 275W.
The Akasha Colony wrote:It's not actually any easier to see models at a glance on a higher resolution screen, because seeing the model is simply a matter of changing the zoom factor. A 768p screen is plenty, the minor difference in detail is irrelevant and if a soldier really needs to see something he can just zoom in on a specific detail.
The Akasha Colony wrote:The whole thought process here seems to be a bit disjointed. On the one hand, you keep talking about models so detailed they require discrete GPUs, but on the other hand talk about troops looking at them "at a glance." Presumably if they expect to do any serious planning, they'll have to do more than look at them "at a glance." On the one hand, you expect every building in your country to have a model, but on the other hand these models are supposed to be extraordinarily detailed to require GPUs.
The Akasha Colony wrote:
What, did you let the enemy bomb all of your own printers or something? Soldiers don't regularly find a need to suddenly print things in the field.
The Akasha Colony wrote:The situations in which such a feature would be useful are so rare as to be irrelevant. It would be like issuing all of your troops saddles and bridles on the off chance they end up needing to ride a horse. Which is actually more likely than being stuck in a magical country where only parallel ports exist. Even Africa and Afghanistan have USB printers.
The Akasha Colony wrote:
The difference in rendering time is trivial for every task you will expect of this machine. My phone takes less than five seconds to start playing a 3D MV like the one I posted. And if you actually run the GPU your battery life goes down the tube.
An
Do you issue extra rifles in case a soldier loses his and needs to "borrow another?"
The Akasha Colony wrote:And if you're afraid of troops breaking or losing their equipment, you have even more reason to issue them the cheapest stuff you can find. So even more reason to do away with 1080p screens and discrete GPUs.
The Akasha Colony wrote:
Do your buildings normally not contain furniture and other non-structural elements that provide cover or concealment?
The Akasha Colony wrote:
And how do you know where this target is? Do enemies have to submit maps of their locations to your bureaucracy upon seizing a building?
[/quote]The Akasha Colony wrote:
Because civilian cellular networks are trivially easy to disrupt and jam and are not remotely secure.
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