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Taihei Tengoku
Senator
 
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Founded: Dec 15, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Taihei Tengoku » Fri May 12, 2017 7:12 am

Honestly the "carrier gap" hasn't been the end of the world. The fact of the matter is that the naval arms race is a marathon, not a sprint, and even a year delay in the commissioning of the Ford wouldn't hurt the US Navy too much.

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Spirit of Hope
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Posts: 8996
Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Spirit of Hope » Fri May 12, 2017 7:19 am

Rhodesialund wrote:
Laritaia wrote:
the problem with that is that the Ford's were designed with zero provision for the necessary steam piping, designing them to accommodate steam catapults would have resulted in a ship less efficiently arranged to take advantage of the smaller footprint of the EMALS


So now the options are to accelerate the EMALS program to meet deadlines, or extend the deadline and have a carrier that's not combat ready while Sea Trials take longer than expected.

First option, I hate because then that magnifies the probabilities of something going wrong. Second option, I hate even more because we got a 100,000 hunk of steel that's gonna be fucking useless until the EMALS get the extended deadline. So I'd just lean on pressuring the R&D team to work overnights just to get the damn EMALS out the door to meet deadlines.

Trying to retrofit the Fords with steam catapults at this point wouldn't speed up their availability to the fleet. EMALS offer an improvement over steam catapults, and are new technology, it isn't that surprising that they will take some extra time to be completely ready. It also isn't like the United States is in a desperate race to have more carriers to meet the enemy on the high seas.
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Rhodesialund
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Founded: Nov 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rhodesialund » Fri May 12, 2017 7:28 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:It also isn't like the United States is in a desperate race to have more carriers to meet the enemy on the high seas.


There's a major problem with the sentiment of complacency. Complacency kills. There are more than enough examples throughout military history where complacency has been the number one factor in later crushing defeats. Treat every victory as a defeat, study it and learn from it. Then expect the absolute worst in the future, prepare for it.
Last edited by Rhodesialund on Fri May 12, 2017 7:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Spirit of Hope
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Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Spirit of Hope » Fri May 12, 2017 7:35 am

Rhodesialund wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:It also isn't like the United States is in a desperate race to have more carriers to meet the enemy on the high seas.


There's a major problem with the sentiment of complacency. Complacency kills. There are more than enough examples throughout military history where complacency has been the number one factor in later crushing defeats.

While true, that isn't applicable in any way to this situation. The United States Navy has multiple new aircraft carriers under contract and construction, they are hardly being complacent with their position of power. The delay for getting EMALS to work is more than worth it for the benefits it will provide in the long run. Any other nation attempting to build a navy that could match the US Navy would take years, if not decades, to become competitive, and at this time no nation is attempting to build such capabilities.
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Rhodesialund
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Founded: Nov 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rhodesialund » Fri May 12, 2017 7:38 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Rhodesialund wrote:
There's a major problem with the sentiment of complacency. Complacency kills. There are more than enough examples throughout military history where complacency has been the number one factor in later crushing defeats.

While true, that isn't applicable in any way to this situation. The United States Navy has multiple new aircraft carriers under contract and construction, they are hardly being complacent with their position of power. The delay for getting EMALS to work is more than worth it for the benefits it will provide in the long run. Any other nation attempting to build a navy that could match the US Navy would take years, if not decades, to become competitive, and at this time no nation is attempting to build such capabilities.


Not saying that EMALS should be dumped, as I later posted. It's that it needs to be rushed to meet deadlines.
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Spirit of Hope
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Founded: Feb 21, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Spirit of Hope » Fri May 12, 2017 7:43 am

Rhodesialund wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:While true, that isn't applicable in any way to this situation. The United States Navy has multiple new aircraft carriers under contract and construction, they are hardly being complacent with their position of power. The delay for getting EMALS to work is more than worth it for the benefits it will provide in the long run. Any other nation attempting to build a navy that could match the US Navy would take years, if not decades, to become competitive, and at this time no nation is attempting to build such capabilities.


Not saying that EMALS should be dumped, as I later posted. It's that it needs to be rushed to meet deadlines.

Why should it be rushed? The delays caused by EMALS aren't that significant given the time taken to designed and construct a new warship, and there is very little need for the Ford to bee in service in any hurry. Trying to rush through any issues would only increase costs, for no real gains.
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Helpful hints on combat vehicle terminology.

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Federated Kingdom of Prussia
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Posts: 149
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Federated Kingdom of Prussia » Fri May 12, 2017 8:26 am

Kazarogkai wrote:
Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:Ah, then it's stupid. Sarissa > everything else


Depends on the terrain, doubtful it would have been that useful in a forest. I love spears but still.

Also like most swords I imagine the aforementioned weapon would have been used as a side arm. In the case of the samurai from what I know probably in conjunction with a bow. As such would it not make more sense to compare it to other sidearms rather than a primary arm? In the case of the Macedonians they had a Kopis.

The Macedonians under Alexander were not really limited in terms of where they could go, thanks to Alexander's aggressive use of light cavalry and elite skirmishers like the Agrianians. Even without that, the average Macedonian pikeman under Alexander was almost certainly trained and experienced in the use of a sword.

Also, the xiphos was the preferred weapon for Macedonian infantry. The Macedonians probably used kopidae at a higher rate than other Greek armies, but the xiphos was still the most commonly seen sword among the brigades of the phalanx.

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Purpelia
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Posts: 30680
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Fri May 12, 2017 9:08 am

Out of curiosity just who is it that america is racing against that they need to rush anything? What world power is it that seeks to fight a naval war against them? Are Russia or China suddenly going to pull a new pearl harbor?
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Crookfur
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Posts: 10302
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Fri May 12, 2017 9:47 am

Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:Okay, here's the planes that I think would be good to fight the East Germans with:
F-4, because of its superiority to the MiG-23, as well as being fast enough to act as an interceptor in the stead of the F-104,
A-4s, slowly being replaced by A-7s, as lightweight attack and CAS planes,
Plans to introduce Tornados for the multirole strike plane supplementing the F-4 in that role(I would go F-111 but muh protectionism)
And a number of Buccaneers on the northern coast to fight any naval presence that might be there.

On attack helicopters; is there anything at all available to Europe before the 80s? It seems for a while only the US and Russia were even interesting in making attack helicopters.

Depends on what you mean by attack helicopter. There were no specially built gunships until Mangusta and eventually tiger but there were several armed light/medium utility designs flying aroun in the 70s. On the anti-tank front you had scouts and alouettes with SS-11 as well as gun and rocket armed versions of said design then gazelle came around rockets. However it's not really until the 80s that you see HOT and TOW showing up on more capable platforms (gazelle, lynx and BO-105)
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Rhodesialund
Minister
 
Posts: 2221
Founded: Nov 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rhodesialund » Fri May 12, 2017 10:30 am

Purpelia wrote:Out of curiosity just who is it that america is racing against that they need to rush anything? What world power is it that seeks to fight a naval war against them? Are Russia or China suddenly going to pull a new pearl harbor?


It's a concept of force projection and maintaining military supremacy, even in peacetime. The bigger and badder you are, the less likely someone is going to invade you or start shit with your country. For the US, a supercarrier offers a whole lot in capabilities that are unmatched by anyone. The advantage must be kept and nurtured.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri May 12, 2017 12:11 pm

How good of a design for a carrier is the current French carrier? I have more nations planned for RP purposes than just my Russian Empire, so I am curious.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism.
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30680
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Fri May 12, 2017 1:58 pm

Rhodesialund wrote:
Purpelia wrote:Out of curiosity just who is it that america is racing against that they need to rush anything? What world power is it that seeks to fight a naval war against them? Are Russia or China suddenly going to pull a new pearl harbor?


It's a concept of force projection and maintaining military supremacy, even in peacetime. The bigger and badder you are, the less likely someone is going to invade you or start shit with your country. For the US, a supercarrier offers a whole lot in capabilities that are unmatched by anyone. The advantage must be kept and nurtured.

And just who could this someone be? I mean, we are talking about a hypothetical opponent that can supply an invasion force across one of the two great oceans but is somehow not going to trigger atomic retaliation for doing so.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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The Corparation
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33874
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Corporate Police State

Postby The Corparation » Fri May 12, 2017 2:15 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:How good of a design for a carrier is the current French carrier? I have more nations planned for RP purposes than just my Russian Empire, so I am curious.

Not very.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri May 12, 2017 2:21 pm

The Corparation wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:How good of a design for a carrier is the current French carrier? I have more nations planned for RP purposes than just my Russian Empire, so I am curious.

Not very.

Could you go into more detail on what makes it a bad design?
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Christian Anarchist and Monarchist. Supporter of Pan-Arabism.
Even the apologists of industrialism have been obliged to admit that some economic evils follow in the wake of the machines. These are such as overproduction, unemployment, and a growing inequality in the distribution of wealth. But the remedies proposed by the apologists are always homeopathic. They expect the evils to disappear when we have bigger and better machines, and more of them. Their remedial programs, therefore, look forward to more industrialism.
Pro and Anti: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=uni ... id=1166847

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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20796
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Fri May 12, 2017 3:03 pm

Rhodesialund wrote:
Laritaia wrote:
the problem with that is that the Ford's were designed with zero provision for the necessary steam piping, designing them to accommodate steam catapults would have resulted in a ship less efficiently arranged to take advantage of the smaller footprint of the EMALS


So now the options are to accelerate the EMALS program to meet deadlines, or extend the deadline and have a carrier that's not combat ready while Sea Trials take longer than expected.

First option, I hate because then that magnifies the probabilities of something going wrong. Second option, I hate even more because we got a 100,000 hunk of steel that's gonna be fucking useless until the EMALS get the extended deadline. So I'd just lean on pressuring the R&D team to work overnights just to get the damn EMALS out the door to meet deadlines.


Do you think they aren't working overnight or something?

That's cute.

Taihei Tengoku wrote:Honestly the "carrier gap" hasn't been the end of the world. The fact of the matter is that the naval arms race is a marathon, not a sprint, and even a year delay in the commissioning of the Ford wouldn't hurt the US Navy too much.


It'll be more like three to five years, probably.

In which case President Drumpf cancels the entire carrier procurement program and tells the Navy to get diesels and cheap.

Rhodesialund wrote:
The Corparation wrote:So apparently Trump has decided that EMALS is too complicated to understand and wants a return to steam catapults.


As if he has any choice on DoD procurement and decision making. He can apply pressure, but the decision is up to the DoD. Despite that, I sorta-somewhat agree with him. EMALS is relatively new, me being me I would lean towards the first two Geralds being steam while EMALS matures with further R&D. When it reaches full readiness, then implement it on future Geralds.


How Drumpf can kill anything in the DoD:

Step 1) Fire Mattis.
Step 2) Replace him with a sycophant.
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri May 12, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rhodesialund
Minister
 
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Founded: Nov 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rhodesialund » Fri May 12, 2017 5:30 pm

Gallia- wrote:
How Drumpf can kill anything in the DoD:

Step 1) Fire Mattis.
Step 2) Replace him with a sycophant.

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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
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Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Fri May 12, 2017 5:32 pm

When Moscow says "прыгать", Drumpf asks "where's Manafort I can't read Russian".

Real Americans have at least one unsubstantiated conspiracy theory they cling to anyway. Most have two.

How else would X-Files have been popular?
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri May 12, 2017 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rhodesialund
Minister
 
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Founded: Nov 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rhodesialund » Fri May 12, 2017 5:36 pm

Gallia- wrote:When Moscow says "прыгать", Drumpf asks "where's Manafort I can't read Russian".


Pffft, Moscow. Such an amateur conspiracy theorist. :roll:


>Drumpf gets orders from the Bogdanoff Twins
>Rothschilds bow to Bogdanoffs
>In contact with aliens
>Possess psychic-like abilities
>Control France with an iron but fair fist
>Own castles & banks globally
>Direct descendants of the ancient royal bloodline
>Will bankroll the first cities on Mars (Bogdangrad will be the first city)
>Own 99% of DNA editing research facilities on Earth
>First designer babies will in all likelihood be Bogdanoff babies
>both brothers said to have 215+ IQ, such intelligence on Earth has only existed deep in Tibetan monasteries & Area 51
>Ancient Indian scriptures tell of two angels who will descend upon Earth and will bring an era of enlightenment and unprecedented technological progress with them
>They own Nanobot R&D labs around the world
>You likely have Bogdabots inside you right now
>The Bogdanoffs are in regular communication with the Archangels Michael and Gabriel, forwarding the word of God to the Orthodox Church. Who do you think set up the meeting between the pope & the Orthodox high command (First meeting between the two organizations in over 1000 years) and arranged the Orthodox leader’s first trip to Antarctica in history literally a few days later to the Bogdanoff bunker in Wilkes land?
>They learned fluent French in under a week
>Nation states entrust their gold reserves with the twins. There’s no gold in Ft. Knox, only Ft. Bogdanoff
>The twins are about 7 decades old, from the space-time reference point of the base human currently accepted by our society
>In reality, they are timeless beings existing in all points of time and space from the big bang to the end of the universe. We don’t know their ultimate plans yet. We hope they’re benevolent beings.



Get on my level of tin-foil conspiracy theories. 8)
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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20796
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Fri May 12, 2017 5:39 pm

The Brothers K are better than Brothers B.

e: The real war begins now:

>both brothers said to have 215+ IQ, such intelligence on Earth has only existed deep in Tibetan monasteries & Area 51


USA super smarts vs. PRC mega mystics.

World title championship Jeopardy contest Mega!Mystics draw on the collective consciousness of the Noosphere while Super!Smarts use the power of the atom and the speed of light to make an Atomic!Watson powered by black holes. North America iss obliterated by something resembling several gigatons of nuclear energy, the human race was collectively psychically raped for information by floating mystics, and Alex Trebeck is kept alive by a combination of Super!Science and psychic energy in constant agony and existential turmoil in the realm between life and death to finish a game of Jeopardy for all eternity because it exists within the event horizon of thirty black holes. The Golden Podium keeps his body alive while his mind is kept tethered to this mortal coil by force feeding of human souls, stripped from their bodies.

Whoever wins, we all lose. Grim darkness now.

President Drumpf, make it happen.

Get on my level scrub.
Last edited by Gallia- on Fri May 12, 2017 5:49 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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Rhodesialund
Minister
 
Posts: 2221
Founded: Nov 24, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Rhodesialund » Fri May 12, 2017 5:59 pm

Gallia- wrote:
USA super smarts vs. PRC mega mystics.

World title championship Jeopardy contest Mega!Mystics draw on the collective consciousness of the Noosphere while Super!Smarts use the power of the atom and the speed of light to make an Atomic!Watson powered by black holes. North America iss obliterated by something resembling several gigatons of nuclear energy, the human race was collectively psychically raped for information by floating mystics, and Alex Trebeck is kept alive by a combination of Super!Science and psychic energy in constant agony and existential turmoil in the realm between life and death to finish a game of Jeopardy for all eternity because it exists within the event horizon of thirty black holes. The Golden Podium keeps his body alive while his mind is kept tethered to this mortal coil by force feeding of human souls, stripped from their bodies.

Whoever wins, we all lose. Grim darkness now.

President Drumpf, make it happen.

Get on my level scrub.

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New Oyashima
Minister
 
Posts: 2266
Founded: Oct 01, 2014
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby New Oyashima » Fri May 12, 2017 10:28 pm

Taihei Tengoku wrote:Honestly the "carrier gap" hasn't been the end of the world. The fact of the matter is that the naval arms race is a marathon, not a sprint, and even a year delay in the commissioning of the Ford wouldn't hurt the US Navy too much.

Its :NS: and I need a fleet of 100 CVNs and twice as many BBs amirite???

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The Corparation
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33874
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Corporate Police State

Postby The Corparation » Fri May 12, 2017 10:48 pm

New Oyashima wrote:
Taihei Tengoku wrote:Honestly the "carrier gap" hasn't been the end of the world. The fact of the matter is that the naval arms race is a marathon, not a sprint, and even a year delay in the commissioning of the Ford wouldn't hurt the US Navy too much.

Its :NS: and I need a fleet of 100 CVNs and twice as many BBs amirite???

Yes. Also you need 50 frankenstein CV/BBN hyper dreadnought mega carriers.
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Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10302
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Sat May 13, 2017 2:01 am

The Corparation wrote:
New Oyashima wrote:Its :NS: and I need a fleet of 100 CVNs and twice as many BBs amirite???

Yes. Also you need 50 frankenstein CV/BBN hyper dreadnought mega carriers.

Don't forget the mobile offshore bases, you need at least one in every major trouble spot around the globe.
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Your ordinary everyday scotiodanavian freedom loving utopia!

And yes I do like big old guns, why do you ask?

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9200
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Sat May 13, 2017 2:12 am

The Corparation wrote:
New Oyashima wrote:Its :NS: and I need a fleet of 100 CVNs and twice as many BBs amirite???

Yes. Also you need 50 frankenstein CV/BBN hyper dreadnought mega carriers.

39.4" railguns firing heated shot is a must have.

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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20796
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Sat May 13, 2017 2:15 am

The Corparation wrote:
New Oyashima wrote:Its :NS: and I need a fleet of 100 CVNs and twice as many BBs amirite???

Yes. Also you need 50 frankenstein CV/BBN hyper dreadnought mega carriers.


tpm is it you

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