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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Thu May 11, 2017 2:17 pm

F-104, A-4, and F-4 are the only good planes you mentioned worth using.

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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Thu May 11, 2017 2:34 pm

Gallia- wrote:F-104, A-4, and F-4 are the only good planes you mentioned worth using.


Bleh, I would just dump the Flying Coffin in favor of a contemporary.
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Federated Kingdom of Prussia
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Postby Federated Kingdom of Prussia » Thu May 11, 2017 2:41 pm

No G.91, Alphajet, or EWR?

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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Thu May 11, 2017 2:45 pm

Rhodesialund wrote:
Gallia- wrote:F-104, A-4, and F-4 are the only good planes you mentioned worth using.


Bleh, I would just dump the Flying Coffin in favor of a contemporary.


All F-104 air force.

Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:No G.91, Alphajet, or EWR?


Alpha Jet is fine but it's almost 80s.
Last edited by Gallia- on Thu May 11, 2017 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Federated Kingdom of Prussia
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Postby Federated Kingdom of Prussia » Thu May 11, 2017 3:57 pm

Gallia- wrote:
Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:No G.91, Alphajet, or EWR?


Alpha Jet is fine but it's almost 80s.

Yes but why wouldn't the G.91 and EWR work? Specifically the EWR, I can't find much info as to why it was never adopted.

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Hyggemata
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Postby Hyggemata » Thu May 11, 2017 4:41 pm

Image

Anyone like this sword design? :P
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Thu May 11, 2017 4:50 pm

Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:
Gallia- wrote:

Alpha Jet is fine but it's almost 80s.

Yes but why wouldn't the G.91 and EWR work? Specifically the EWR, I can't find much info as to why it was never adopted.

VJ101 is highly unconventional even for jump jets--it flies on six weak jets, two of which are useless for horizontal flight and four are located on rotating nacelles. VAK 191 is a safer bet since it's a lot closer to actual jump jets like Harrier and Yak-38.

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Postby Federated Kingdom of Prussia » Thu May 11, 2017 4:56 pm

Hyggemata wrote:(Image)

Anyone like this sword design? :P

It visually looks pleasing, but what of it? It's a sword.

Taihei Tengoku wrote:
Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:Yes but why wouldn't the G.91 and EWR work? Specifically the EWR, I can't find much info as to why it was never adopted.

VJ101 is highly unconventional even for jump jets--it flies on six weak jets, two of which are useless for horizontal flight and four are located on rotating nacelles. VAK 191 is a safer bet since it's a lot closer to actual jump jets like Harrier and Yak-38.

I had thought that the 191 was inferior to the Harrier in most aspects except speed, or at least that's what Wikipedia tells me.

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Hyggemata
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Postby Hyggemata » Thu May 11, 2017 5:17 pm

Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:
Hyggemata wrote:(Image)

Anyone like this sword design? :P

It visually looks pleasing, but what of it? It's a sword.

It's one of the predecessors of the katana.
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Postby Federated Kingdom of Prussia » Thu May 11, 2017 5:27 pm

Hyggemata wrote:
Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:It visually looks pleasing, but what of it? It's a sword.

It's one of the predecessors of the katana.

Ah, then it's stupid. Sarissa > everything else

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Postby The Akasha Colony » Thu May 11, 2017 7:01 pm

Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:Yes but why wouldn't the G.91 and EWR work? Specifically the EWR, I can't find much info as to why it was never adopted.


The VJ 101 was extremely complex and probably would have been very expensive and hard to maintain. It had a whopping six engines, two of which would have been useless in flight, plus two swivel mechanisms to rotate the outer engine pods. Just look at all of the problems that have been encountered with V-22 even today, and imagine trying to sort that out in the 1960s.
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The Technocratic Syndicalists
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Postby The Technocratic Syndicalists » Thu May 11, 2017 7:58 pm

Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:As for the F-104, I'm not sure if I should touch the plane. From what I've read, the horrific safety record is partially a matter of pilots being not well-trained, and the plane's unforgiving nature. Since Prussia's definitely having mandatory civil service, I don't want those who fly the planes being rushed through training and being given a speed demon with very little in the way of brakes. The F-4 might not be quite as fast, but it's definitely not slow, can carry a lot more ordnance, and has two seats - wouldn't that make it a better dogfighter, especially after both designs have matured by the 70s?

Is there even a competition between the A-4 and G.91? The A-4 has much greater range, payload, and from the looks of it, ability to be upgraded as it ages. The A-4 seems to be equal to the Alphajet, except the A-4 can again carry much more ordnance. I'm fixed on not using the A-10 for Fulda Gap operations, but I need a plane that can fill the role.

An interesting airframe I found was the EWR VJ-101. It's a supersonic-capable VTOL fighter, but I can't find a whole lot of information as to why it was never adopted. Could that be a good addition to keep the West German fighter industry afloat?

Finally, are there preferred plane designs for delivering nuclear weapons? I'm guessing that one would want a fast plane to get out away from the blast radius as quickly as possible, but with toss bombing even a relatively slow plane could get out of danger.


The F-104's problem is that it because of its thin, highly loaded wings it has a very high stall speed and very bad stall characteristics. The fuselage doesn't really generate any lift and because there's no washout the wing will stall all at once where the thing then drops like a brick. The downward firing ejection seat on the early models also certainly didn't help. IIRC around 30% of the Luftwaffe's F-104s crashed with around half the crashes resulting in the death of the pilot, not a very enticing safety record. If you have F-4s they're better in basically every way, both have around a Mach 2.2 top speed and in addition to having much greater range/payload capability the F-4 would destroy the starfighter in any turning competition. If you're limited to Vietnam era stuff for ground attack I would recommend the F-105, A-5, or even better the F-111. The A-7 is also a very good (and very affordable) choice and makes for a very good CAS aircraft and can bust WarPac tanks with AGM-65s.

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The Greater Aryan Race
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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Thu May 11, 2017 8:13 pm

All you need is the Panavia Tornado plus F-4 and F-111 (for your nuclear bombing needs).
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Thu May 11, 2017 8:43 pm

Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:
Gallia- wrote:

Alpha Jet is fine but it's almost 80s.

Yes but why wouldn't the G.91 and EWR work? Specifically the EWR, I can't find much info as to why it was never adopted.


VJ-101 is trash garbage and G.91 is just a slightly worse A-4.

Alpha Jet has uses outside of being a tiny nuclear bomber.

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Postby Dostanuot Loj » Thu May 11, 2017 9:51 pm

IIRC the flying lawn dart's most important role when it was phased out of fighter service (which was quickly) was interdiction. Especially tactical nuclear interdiction. It essentially filled the role of a TBM for the Germans.
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Postby Crookfur » Thu May 11, 2017 11:29 pm

Meh just use the ultimate 70s combo of phantom and buccaneer with tornado starting to phase the bucs out in the 80s.

Buccaneer could do most of the multi role stuff Germany eventually got with tornado including the marinefleiger antishipping role.
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Laywenrania
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Postby Laywenrania » Thu May 11, 2017 11:39 pm

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:All you need is the Panavia Tornado plus F-4 and F-111 (for your nuclear bombing needs).

nuclear bombing could also be done by the Tornado. I'd argue that the F-111 and Tornado effectively fill both the same role, although the F-111 is bigger and has a higher range.
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Postby The Corparation » Fri May 12, 2017 12:09 am

So apparently Trump has decided that EMALS is to complicated to understand and wants a return to steam catapults.
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Laywenrania
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Postby Laywenrania » Fri May 12, 2017 12:10 am

The Corparation wrote:So apparently Trump has decided that EMALS is to complicated to understand and wants a return to steam catapults.


Steam is good. Let's all go back to steam.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Fri May 12, 2017 12:18 am

The Corparation wrote:So apparently Trump has decided that EMALS is to complicated to understand and wants a return to steam catapults.


If only USA had enough people to do that. ):

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Postby Federated Kingdom of Prussia » Fri May 12, 2017 5:19 am

Okay, here's the planes that I think would be good to fight the East Germans with:
F-4, because of its superiority to the MiG-23, as well as being fast enough to act as an interceptor in the stead of the F-104,
A-4s, slowly being replaced by A-7s, as lightweight attack and CAS planes,
Plans to introduce Tornados for the multirole strike plane supplementing the F-4 in that role(I would go F-111 but muh protectionism)
And a number of Buccaneers on the northern coast to fight any naval presence that might be there.

On attack helicopters; is there anything at all available to Europe before the 80s? It seems for a while only the US and Russia were even interesting in making attack helicopters.

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Postby Rhodesialund » Fri May 12, 2017 6:00 am

The Corparation wrote:So apparently Trump has decided that EMALS is too complicated to understand and wants a return to steam catapults.


As if he has any choice on DoD procurement and decision making. He can apply pressure, but the decision is up to the DoD. Despite that, I sorta-somewhat agree with him. EMALS is relatively new, me being me I would lean towards the first two Geralds being steam while EMALS matures with further R&D. When it reaches full readiness, then implement it on future Geralds.
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Laritaia
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Postby Laritaia » Fri May 12, 2017 6:20 am

Rhodesialund wrote:
The Corparation wrote:So apparently Trump has decided that EMALS is too complicated to understand and wants a return to steam catapults.


As if he has any choice on DoD procurement and decision making. He can apply pressure, but the decision is up to the DoD. Despite that, I sorta-somewhat agree with him. EMALS is relatively new, me being me I would lean towards the first two Geralds being steam while EMALS matures with further R&D. When it reaches full readiness, then implement it on future Geralds.


the problem with that is that the Ford's were designed with zero provision for the necessary steam piping, designing them to accommodate steam catapults would have resulted in a ship less efficiently arranged to take advantage of the smaller footprint of the EMALS

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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Fri May 12, 2017 7:00 am

Laritaia wrote:
Rhodesialund wrote:
As if he has any choice on DoD procurement and decision making. He can apply pressure, but the decision is up to the DoD. Despite that, I sorta-somewhat agree with him. EMALS is relatively new, me being me I would lean towards the first two Geralds being steam while EMALS matures with further R&D. When it reaches full readiness, then implement it on future Geralds.


the problem with that is that the Ford's were designed with zero provision for the necessary steam piping, designing them to accommodate steam catapults would have resulted in a ship less efficiently arranged to take advantage of the smaller footprint of the EMALS


So now the options are to accelerate the EMALS program to meet deadlines, or extend the deadline and have a carrier that's not combat ready while Sea Trials take longer than expected.

First option, I hate because then that magnifies the probabilities of something going wrong. Second option, I hate even more because we got a 100,000 hunk of steel that's gonna be fucking useless until the EMALS get the extended deadline. So I'd just lean on pressuring the R&D team to work overnights just to get the damn EMALS out the door to meet deadlines.
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Postby Kazarogkai » Fri May 12, 2017 7:11 am

Federated Kingdom of Prussia wrote:
Hyggemata wrote:It's one of the predecessors of the katana.

Ah, then it's stupid. Sarissa > everything else


Depends on the terrain, doubtful it would have been that useful in a forest. I love spears but still.

Also like most swords I imagine the aforementioned weapon would have been used as a side arm. In the case of the samurai from what I know probably in conjunction with a bow. As such would it not make more sense to compare it to other sidearms rather than a primary arm? In the case of the Macedonians they had a Kopis.
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