NS Military Realism Consultancy Thread Mk X Purps Safe Space

[Puzikas]

No
The tribalism of the communities in the area is a nightmare and you're a foreign invader to them even when you're not
The Soviets learned this the hard way when they decided sending troops from the Transcaucasia region into Afghanistan and we're met with fierce opposition culturally.

[Theodosiya]

No
The tribalism of the communities in the area is a nightmare and you're a foreign invader to them even when you're not
The Soviets learned this the hard way when they decided sending troops from the Transcaucasia region into Afghanistan and we're met with fierce opposition culturally.

IF, and if, USA or othe country literally support and rain money on one of Afghanistan tribe, including "advisors" and "PMC" in sizeable number, could one Tribe became dominant and unite the country? Full support on many things, but make sure they're not Taliban or Al-Qaeda.

[Gallan Systems]

No
The tribalism of the communities in the area is a nightmare and you're a foreign invader to them even when you're not
The Soviets learned this the hard way when they decided sending troops from the Transcaucasia region into Afghanistan and we're met with fierce opposition culturally.

IF, and if, USA or othe country literally support and rain money on one of Afghanistan tribe, including "advisors" and "PMC" in sizeable number, could one Tribe became dominant and unite the country? Full support on many things, but make sure they're not Taliban or Al-Qaeda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Af ... %80%932014)

[Theodosiya]

IF, and if, USA or othe country literally support and rain money on one of Afghanistan tribe, including "advisors" and "PMC" in sizeable number, could one Tribe became dominant and unite the country? Full support on many things, but make sure they're not Taliban or Al-Qaeda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Af ... %80%932014)

Apparently the Northern Alliance under Massoud could, in theory if he wasn't killed, be the nucleus for modern and stable Afghanistan.

[Great Britain and Northern Ireland-Japan]

The order for Air Force Hierarchy is as follows for the US and the UK:

USA	UK
Wing	Group
Group	Wing
Squadron	Squadron

Which one of these does the JASDF use?

[Allanea]

No
The tribalism of the communities in the area is a nightmare and you're a foreign invader to them even when you're not
The Soviets learned this the hard way when they decided sending troops from the Transcaucasia region into Afghanistan and we're met with fierce opposition culturally.

IF, and if, USA or othe country literally support and rain money on one of Afghanistan tribe, including "advisors" and "PMC" in sizeable number, could one Tribe became dominant and unite the country? Full support on many things, but make sure they're not Taliban or Al-Qaeda.

Why do we need to unite the country, though?

[Allanea]

Can you tell us more about how things like CAS are coordinated between the units that require it and the units that provide it?

TIC goes up, goes to local headquarters element (from what I've gathered). TIC get's sorted and sent to where it needs to be, usually done within less than a minute, not due to fluidity in the system, but because the requests are specific and consistent in requirements based on the unit in question.

TIC gets put into queue for assignment by the local requested unit. If they request rotary-wing air cover (Apaches, which I'm to be working on soon enough), usually those can be scrambled. Fixed Wing is situational and can take a while to get on station if not already present. While you're supposed to have cover, sometimes there are attacks or complications on the FOBs and airbases responsible for scrambling those assets.

TIC, now given to assigned unit, is addressed. Dependent upon the amount of time the TIC has been open for, and the actual context of the fight, lives of the troops on the ground may be in higher stakes than before. Air cover then must begin directly communicating with ground forces, but only on specified channels, that's even if there's contact to be had. That back and forth, just as its always been, is what lets the aircraft overhead slowly catch onto the situation below, then address it as the pilot sees fit.

A typical TIC is closed by the CAS successfully rooting out or destroying the hostile enemy element. If they fail, the TIC might stay open, even though the threat leaves. Some have seen them open for ridiculously large amounts of time that in a war against an insurgency, aren't truly possible. There's just not enough sustainment from hostiles to maintain the TIC for that long.

(The research is done to ensure certain things I say are within the public reach and is just a CYOA.)

Okay, to continue this thought, how is the CAS budgeted? That's to say, obviously the planes and helicopters can do only a given amount of flights in a day, how is it decided how many flights is a given unit entitled to? Is this something the Brigade Commander decides, or his air officer, or?

[Gallan Systems]

TIC goes up, goes to local headquarters element (from what I've gathered). TIC get's sorted and sent to where it needs to be, usually done within less than a minute, not due to fluidity in the system, but because the requests are specific and consistent in requirements based on the unit in question.

TIC gets put into queue for assignment by the local requested unit. If they request rotary-wing air cover (Apaches, which I'm to be working on soon enough), usually those can be scrambled. Fixed Wing is situational and can take a while to get on station if not already present. While you're supposed to have cover, sometimes there are attacks or complications on the FOBs and airbases responsible for scrambling those assets.

TIC, now given to assigned unit, is addressed. Dependent upon the amount of time the TIC has been open for, and the actual context of the fight, lives of the troops on the ground may be in higher stakes than before. Air cover then must begin directly communicating with ground forces, but only on specified channels, that's even if there's contact to be had. That back and forth, just as its always been, is what lets the aircraft overhead slowly catch onto the situation below, then address it as the pilot sees fit.

A typical TIC is closed by the CAS successfully rooting out or destroying the hostile enemy element. If they fail, the TIC might stay open, even though the threat leaves. Some have seen them open for ridiculously large amounts of time that in a war against an insurgency, aren't truly possible. There's just not enough sustainment from hostiles to maintain the TIC for that long.

(The research is done to ensure certain things I say are within the public reach and is just a CYOA.)

Okay, to continue this thought, how is the CAS budgeted? That's to say, obviously the planes and helicopters can do only a given amount of flights in a day, how is it decided how many flights is a given unit entitled to? Is this something the Brigade Commander decides, or his air officer, or?

Pre-AFATDS: It depends on the unit.

Sometimes the attack helicopters will contact the ground force commander on FM radio (which might be a battalion, company, or platoon leader), or an Air Force tactical air control party. Sometimes they'll be contacted by an Air Force officer who will brief them on whatever they're doing or speak for the ground force commander. Sometimes they'll be coordinated through by planning officer on board an OH-58. Sometimes they'll have to figure it out themselves.

TACFIRE wasn't capable of coordinating close air support as it was an Army Artillery-specific system that predated AirLand Battle. AFATDS didn't exist in operational form to provide coordination for CAS. Your nerve center would be the battalion or brigade Air Force liaison officer and his M113 or a man-pack radio that could talk to the gunships, assuming you had the proper encryption keys and frequency card, otherwise you'll be left speaking in the clear back-and-forth.

This was the state-of-the-art twenty years ago.

Post-AFATDS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nijnx_5-zkg

AFATDS is a tri-service system that is compatible with NGFS, fixed- and rotary-wing air support, and ground artillery. Air support systems would be budgeted similar to tube and rocket artillery.

[Crookfur]

The order for Air Force Hierarchy is as follows for the US and the UK:

USA	UK
Wing	Group
Group	Wing
Squadron	Squadron

Which one of these does the JASDF use?

IIRC they use the American model.

[Allanea]

Pre-AFATDS: It depends on the unit.

I'm aware of the existence of electronic C3I. I am in fact trained to use it, IRL. [Albeit not that thing specifically].

The question was how are the decisions actually made.

Suppose there is an ability to carry out 3 CAS missions today. Who gets them? Company A or Company C? Who decides this?

[Husseinarti]

The order for Air Force Hierarchy is as follows for the US and the UK:

USA	UK
Wing	Group
Group	Wing
Squadron	Squadron

Which one of these does the JASDF use?

Go to Wikipedia.

[Gallan Systems]

Pre-AFATDS: It depends on the unit.

The question was how are the decisions actually made.

Pre-AFATDS: It depends on the unit.

Post-AFATDS it still depends on the unit, but AFATDS makes it slightly easier on planning staffs.

Suppose there is an ability to carry out 3 CAS missions today. Who gets them? Company A or Company C? Who decides this?

What are you asking? Honest question.

What is this battalion doing? How many helicopters does the brigade commander have at his disposal and how many has he allocated to this battalion? What objective has Alpha Company or Charlie Company been assigned that requires them to have direct support from an attack helicopter unit instead of battalion mortars?

How long is this piece of string?

The answer to all of these questions: It depends. Specifically on METT-T. Unless you have a specific scenario that can be analyzed on some level, "AFATDS" is about as specific as you can pin this down.

There is no one-size answer for how the US Army allocates helicopter gunships or any combat support for that matter. It fits in with the division and brigade commander's scheme of maneuver. If the division commander decides to use his attack helicopter regiment for a daring deep raid in AirLand Battle fashion, he won't have enough for his battalions to have direct support from those same gunship platoons or companies.

This should be obvious, though.

[Allanea]

What are you asking? Honest question.

It's a very simple question:

How are these operations budgeted?

Are they budgeted by the Brigade Commander to whose Brigade the helicopters belong to, based on his Scheme of Maneuver?

Are they budgeted by the Air Liaison Officer, in the way in which the Artillery Officer composes a Fire Budget, based on the Commander's Battle Plan or Scheme of Maneuver or whatever?

Are they budgeted by consultation?

[Gallan Systems]

What are you asking? Honest question.

It's a very simple question:

How are these operations budgeted?

Are they budgeted by the Brigade Commander to whose Brigade the helicopters belong to, based on his Scheme of Maneuver?

Are they budgeted by the Air Liaison Officer, in the way in which the Artillery Officer composes a Fire Budget, based on the Commander's Battle Plan or Scheme of Maneuver or whatever?

Are they budgeted by consultation?

Division commander decides where and how helicopters are used, based on what the Corps commander or UCC wants. Staffs implement his general idea into something that works (or if it's 1985, the Corps Commanding General and his staff plan expenditures and movements down to battalion level and tells the division, brigade, and battalion commanders what to do).

http://www.au.af.mil/au/afri/aspj/airch ... awcett.htm

This is a pre-AFATDS air tasking plan for the 82nd Airborne's brigade leapfrogs across the Iraqi desert in Desert Storm. The article itself is about the trouble of tasking close air support for deep raids/air assaults but it's still relevant in a general sense too, it's just easier for a mechanized infantry brigade vice a light infantry one.

[Austrasien]

No
The tribalism of the communities in the area is a nightmare and you're a foreign invader to them even when you're not
The Soviets learned this the hard way when they decided sending troops from the Transcaucasia region into Afghanistan and we're met with fierce opposition culturally.

IF, and if, USA or othe country literally support and rain money on one of Afghanistan tribe, including "advisors" and "PMC" in sizeable number, could one Tribe became dominant and unite the country? Full support on many things, but make sure they're not Taliban or Al-Qaeda.

Maybe but foreign support generally is not enough to bring this about. You need to be supporting a group or individual who is capable of this in the first place, and such people are rare.

It is not the most profitable avenue even then though because if they can take power in the country and you have already shown you cannot or will not invade the country they don't have much reason to listen to you once they take power. What are you going to do about it after all?

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

I think the US is a tribal society. Best military ever.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I think the US is a tribal society. Best military ever.

Ok Gaylastan calm down.

[Puzikas]

Yeah but he's not wrong

American tribalism is less ethnic (well, was, until recently, and still is-though you wouldn't know it based on the microcosm of the internet) and more regional or way more arbitrary. Things like sports teams in America draw a divide as deep as some tribes in Afghanistan have, weirdly.
It's more homogeneous than other societies though so the tribalism aspect is more Nationwide-way more Americans are fiercely national about simply being American than a lot of other nations.

t. Observations of an immigrant to America who works in one of the most diverse areas of the country.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Yeah but he's not wrong

American tribalism is less ethnic (well, was, until recently, and still is-though you wouldn't know it based on the microcosm of the internet) and more regional or way more arbitrary. Things like sports teams in America draw a divide as deep as some tribes in Afghanistan have, weirdly.
It's more homogeneous than other societies though so the tribalism aspect is more Nationwide-way more Americans are fiercely national about simply being American than a lot of other nations.

t. Observations of an immigrant to America who works in one of the most diverse areas of the country.

You better not be a Bears fan...
^Is almost a joke that based on how one responds to this in a post-apoc situation, whether one lives or dies.... or becomes instant BFFs.

Because hey, common-ground from sports is just as good as finding common ground in any other subject.
#Know your sports-rivalries. (and dude, some of them have stigma of fanbois being a tad too annoying, bro)

For example, end of the world... and running into Mike Sparks...

[Gallan Systems]

I think the US is a tribal society.

It is. If by "tribal" you mean "multicultural". The tribalism/parochialism inherent in America's diverse society has been partially redrawn lately for the worst, but the tribalism is also inherent to USA's identity since the only people who actually have any serious claim to being "American" live in third world communist countries in California, Utah, and the Dakotas.

Best military ever.

Tribalism/parochialism is one of the greatest impediments to civilizational growth and existence.

America's ability to get over its parochialism and work towards compromise in times of crisis is fading.

[Polvokia]

Are there any good articles on the performance of Serbian forces during the Yugoslav wars?

[Federated Kingdom of Prussia]

Side question: It's true that tribal societies can have less growth and, from a military perspective, be less efficient and worse at winning wars than more 'mixed' societies. The Spartans were probably the ultimate example of a tribal society, an entire civilization geared toward producing physically, mentally, and in some ways genetically superior warriors, which came at the cost of the Spartans' inability to survive losing big battles(though this is more complicated than 'too many Spartan citizens died at Leuktra'), and them being totally unable to survive extended wars without allies.

However, do modern militaries cultivate a tribal mentality? Take more 'gung ho' organizations, like the USMC or French Foreign Legion, which thrive on their own culture of toughness and warrior spirit. The Marine Corps' own god, former General Mattis, even recommends a novel about the Spartans to Marines. It seems to me that militaries want to develop a society more resembling something less culturally advanced as a means to develop a greater ethos within its own ranks. Young troops get hazed because it's perceived as making them tougher, authority figures are supposed to be obeyed unquestioningly(and questioning their authority lands you in a world of hurt), and the ethics that most people are taught as children - like acceptance, kindness, and nonaggression, are shunned. The equivalent to tribal 'rites of passage' - boot camp - are notorious for being fraught with hardship and pain, yet young men fling themselves at it, seeking a tight-knit community that tribes are traditionally associated with.

So, are tribal mentalities good for militaries?

[The Soodean Imperium]

Encouraging small-unit cohesion or making allusions to past/foreign civilizations is fine if it's done in a way that doesn't divide, replace, or undermine the central national identity. It may even improve small-unit cohesion; risking one's life to save one's comrades-in-arms, or at least avoid the shame of cowardice in front of them, is a bit more concrete than risking one's life "for France," "for America," etc.

Tribalism mainly becomes a problem when there's no core national identity holding it together, or when it preaches that one's subgroup is better to and/or separate from that national identity. This is a particularly severe problem in post-colonial countries, where the borders encompass a lot of tight-knit but divided ethnic groups and the national identity is a recent and still-artificial construct.

[Puzikas]

Yeah but he's not wrong

American tribalism is less ethnic (well, was, until recently, and still is-though you wouldn't know it based on the microcosm of the internet) and more regional or way more arbitrary. Things like sports teams in America draw a divide as deep as some tribes in Afghanistan have, weirdly.
It's more homogeneous than other societies though so the tribalism aspect is more Nationwide-way more Americans are fiercely national about simply being American than a lot of other nations.

t. Observations of an immigrant to America who works in one of the most diverse areas of the country.

You better not be a Bears fan...
^Is almost a joke that based on how one responds to this in a post-apoc situation, whether one lives or dies.... or becomes instant BFFs.

Because hey, common-ground from sports is just as good as finding common ground in any other subject.
#Know your sports-rivalries. (and dude, some of them have stigma of fanbois being a tad too annoying, bro)

For example, end of the world... and running into Mike Sparks...

Broncos fan mate
I'm the big orange cancer
Better_than_bradey
I think we can all be united in our hate for that fuckboi

[Neo Balka]

You better not be a Bears fan...
^Is almost a joke that based on how one responds to this in a post-apoc situation, whether one lives or dies.... or becomes instant BFFs.

Because hey, common-ground from sports is just as good as finding common ground in any other subject.
#Know your sports-rivalries. (and dude, some of them have stigma of fanbois being a tad too annoying, bro)

For example, end of the world... and running into Mike Sparks...

Broncos fan mate
I'm the big orange cancer
Better_than_bradey
I think we can all be united in our hate for that fuckboi

Oh god.