Infantry Discussion Thread 9: Parabellum [NO KAIJU]

[Crookfur]

Someone done goofed up the quotes in your first post Crook, prolly you...

Sorted

edit:

toppage pron:

[Crookfur]

Crook is always to blame cause he can't English

Nope i'm to blame because i'm married.

When you get married you quickly have to get used to the fact that it is always your fault.

[Fordorsia]

Possibly, but hitting the side of a T-34, it's only the upper hull and the lower hull behind the wheels that would be a hard target. It would go straight through the lower sides and even anywhere on the turret withing 400m. For early WWII I think it would be adequate with the standard ammo. Then if this HVAP one I would like is even better than 50mm at 100m, then great.

I would be guessing APCR would give you 70-80mm at 100m. based on a very rough comparisson of figures from variosu guns that used both AP/APHE and APCR over time, the switch to APCR tended to bring anyhtign from a 30-100% improvement so i would split the difference at a 40-60% improvement if the AP was already pretty good.

The numbers also sound right comapred to what i could find on the APDS for RARDEN which gets 63mm at a 1000m so is proabably pulling 80mm or so at 100m.


Of coruse you still want a antitnak boing system as they are a far more versatile tool and altogether much smaller and more portable. You probably don't want to be carting a 30mm wheeled gun when you go up the jungle to hunt japanese supply boats with a bunch of insane gurkas.

Antitank boing system has zero range though, so just for that reason I think the rifle would be more versatile. Plus the rifle would be more accurate and would penetrate more consistantly. Also the antitank boing system was unreliable and innacurate, but even if you hit there was still a good chance it wouldn't even detonate.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

In early war terms, the German 37mm or QF-2pdrs are probably the model antitank guns. Both have a small projective which can be fired at high velocity; the Littlejohn adapter for the 2pdr probably made it one of the best small antitank guns(and I say small to exclude things like the Russian 76mm or the 88). The problem is that you can't cram any significant amount of HE into those rounds - the 37mm HE rounds had about 25 grams of filler, practically nothing. So using small-caliber antitank guns well fits the early-war zeitgeist, but it will be shit-tier very quickly if a war breaks out.

Also note: The Russian 45mm was an excellent dual-purpose lightweight gun and tanks that mounted it dominated engagements in the Spanish Civil War, so it's not like they had no idea. They just had no time and not enough experience to develop better tanks before war on the continent broke out.

[The United Equstrian Front]

Now just include pants and a backpack of the same color and you have the uniform.
(Yes that is the confederate uniform I just like how it looks I don't support the ideals.)

Ignore the dude he's unimportant look at the musket, yes it's magical I hope that doesn't hurt the opinion.

[Fordorsia]

You'd probably have to consider the length of my shell too. It's 322mm long, which is much longer than however long this is. Dat superior powder load.

[The United Equstrian Front]

You'd probably have to consider the length of my shell too. It's 322mm long, which is much longer than however long this is. Dat superior powder load.

You talking to me?

[Sevvania]

(Yes that is the confederate uniform I just like how it looks I don't support the ideals.)

Sevvania uses a similar uniform, albeit in a desert color, up until 1900.

[The United Equstrian Front]

(Yes that is the confederate uniform I just like how it looks I don't support the ideals.)

Sevvania uses a similar uniform, albeit in a desert color, up until 1900.

Well I tried to find something winter friendly that's not full on white.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

While armor penetration is significantly more complex than just shot speed, having a large or small powder load does make a difference. The 17pdr had a lolhueg nine pounds of propellant compared to the 75mm M3's two pounds. Combine that with a significantly longer barrel, and it translates to a much, much faster projectile. And doubling mass of a projectile will double kinetic energy, but doubling speed quadruples the kinetic energy. The problem is that guns like the 17pdr tend to kick up large dustballs and have very noticeable blasts, but that's kinda hard to get around with tank guns.

Also, ford, give a caliber for your gun so we can call it something. L/1000 or whatever.

[Crookfur]

I would be guessing APCR would give you 70-80mm at 100m. based on a very rough comparisson of figures from variosu guns that used both AP/APHE and APCR over time, the switch to APCR tended to bring anyhtign from a 30-100% improvement so i would split the difference at a 40-60% improvement if the AP was already pretty good.

The numbers also sound right comapred to what i could find on the APDS for RARDEN which gets 63mm at a 1000m so is proabably pulling 80mm or so at 100m.


Of coruse you still want a antitnak boing system as they are a far more versatile tool and altogether much smaller and more portable. You probably don't want to be carting a 30mm wheeled gun when you go up the jungle to hunt japanese supply boats with a bunch of insane gurkas.

Antitank boing system has zero range though, so just for that reason I think the rifle would be more versatile. Plus the rifle would be more accurate and would penetrate more consistantly. Also the antitank boing system was unreliable and innacurate, but even if you hit there was still a good chance it wouldn't even detonate.

Most of the fuzzing issues are fixable and the range isn't an issue as you can get a infantry projector much much closer than you could ever get an AT gun.

In the end you will need some to throw explosives and if you aren't cool enough for a PIAT style system then you will have to look at a bazooka or tank fist.

Or you welch out completely and try to fire big ass HEAT projectiles off you gun's muzzle but that is even more German than tank fists.

[Crookfur]

While armor penetration is significantly more complex than just shot speed, having a large or small powder load does make a difference. The 17pdr had a lolhueg nine pounds of propellant compared to the 75mm M3's two pounds. Combine that with a significantly longer barrel, and it translates to a much, much faster projectile. And doubling mass of a projectile will double kinetic energy, but doubling speed quadruples the kinetic energy. The problem is that guns like the 17pdr tend to kick up large dustballs and have very noticeable blasts, but that's kinda hard to get around with tank guns.

Also, ford, give a caliber for your gun so we can call it something. L/1000 or whatever.

IIRC it's 30mm

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

While armor penetration is significantly more complex than just shot speed, having a large or small powder load does make a difference. The 17pdr had a lolhueg nine pounds of propellant compared to the 75mm M3's two pounds. Combine that with a significantly longer barrel, and it translates to a much, much faster projectile. And doubling mass of a projectile will double kinetic energy, but doubling speed quadruples the kinetic energy. The problem is that guns like the 17pdr tend to kick up large dustballs and have very noticeable blasts, but that's kinda hard to get around with tank guns.

Also, ford, give a caliber for your gun so we can call it something. L/1000 or whatever.

IIRC it's 30mm

Yes but what's the barrel length? Caliber is determined by dividing the bore of the barrel by length of the barrel, all in millimeters. So 30 divided by....

[Purpelia]

IIRC it's 30mm

Yes but what's the barrel length? Caliber is determined by dividing the bore of the barrel by length of the barrel, all in millimeters. So 30 divided by....

No, caliber is the measure of the bore diameter. What you are talking is barrel length expressed in barrel calibers as a unit.

[Crookfur]

(Image)
Now just include pants and a backpack of the same color and you have the uniform.
(Yes that is the confederate uniform I just like how it looks I don't support the ideals.)
(Image)
Ignore the dude he's unimportant look at the musket, yes it's magical I hope that doesn't hurt the opinion.

Muskets are wonderful and awesome, there is no need to sully them with anything as dubious as... magic.



On another matter and to the thread as a whole: How long do you think I could keep lowland plaids (basically think great plaid/belted plaid but simply worn as a wet/cold weather cover over normal/English period garb and generally plain rather than tartan) around in service and at which point does it become a poncho/rain cape?

[Purpelia]

Just make it a kilt that doubles as a scarf. Nothing wrong with that.

[Fordorsia]

While armor penetration is significantly more complex than just shot speed, having a large or small powder load does make a difference. The 17pdr had a lolhueg nine pounds of propellant compared to the 75mm M3's two pounds. Combine that with a significantly longer barrel, and it translates to a much, much faster projectile. And doubling mass of a projectile will double kinetic energy, but doubling speed quadruples the kinetic energy. The problem is that guns like the 17pdr tend to kick up large dustballs and have very noticeable blasts, but that's kinda hard to get around with tank guns.

Also, ford, give a caliber for your gun so we can call it something. L/1000 or whatever.

Excluding the muzzle brake and the short part of the chamber that the bullet travels through, the barrel itself is 200.375cm.

Antitank boing system has zero range though, so just for that reason I think the rifle would be more versatile. Plus the rifle would be more accurate and would penetrate more consistantly. Also the antitank boing system was unreliable and innacurate, but even if you hit there was still a good chance it wouldn't even detonate.

Most of the fuzzing issues are fixable and the range isn't an issue as you can get a infantry projector much much closer than you could ever get an AT gun.

In the end you will need some to throw explosives and if you aren't cool enough for a PIAT style system then you will have to look at a bazooka or tank fist.

Or you welch out completely and try to fire big ass HEAT projectiles off you gun's muzzle but that is even more German than tank fists.

Couldn't I just have some idiot carrying a large explosive charge and throw it at the tank? Knowing the terribleness of tank visibility they probably wouldn't even know what hit them.

[Crookfur]

IIRC it's 30mm

Yes but what's the barrel length? Caliber is determined by dividing the bore of the barrel by length of the barrel, all in millimeters. So 30 divided by....

What purp said and it's the length of the bore by its diameter. It can also be done in any unit as long as the length and diameter are in the same unit.

Ford did mention 2m but I don't know if that's overall or just the barrel.

[Crookfur]

While armor penetration is significantly more complex than just shot speed, having a large or small powder load does make a difference. The 17pdr had a lolhueg nine pounds of propellant compared to the 75mm M3's two pounds. Combine that with a significantly longer barrel, and it translates to a much, much faster projectile. And doubling mass of a projectile will double kinetic energy, but doubling speed quadruples the kinetic energy. The problem is that guns like the 17pdr tend to kick up large dustballs and have very noticeable blasts, but that's kinda hard to get around with tank guns.

Also, ford, give a caliber for your gun so we can call it something. L/1000 or whatever.

Excluding the muzzle brake and the short part of the chamber that the bullet travels through, the barrel itself is 200.375cm.

Most of the fuzzing issues are fixable and the range isn't an issue as you can get a infantry projector much much closer than you could ever get an AT gun.

In the end you will need some to throw explosives and if you aren't cool enough for a PIAT style system then you will have to look at a bazooka or tank fist.

Or you welch out completely and try to fire big ass HEAT projectiles off you gun's muzzle but that is even more German than tank fists.

Couldn't I just have some idiot carrying a large explosive charge and throw it at the tank? Knowing the terribleness of tank visibility they probably wouldn't even know what hit them.

How exceptionally Japanese... or Churchill's last ditch army type stuff.

[Purpelia]

I really don't see what this thing brings to the table that my proposed 20x142mm machine gun doesn't.

[Fordorsia]

Excluding the muzzle brake and the short part of the chamber that the bullet travels through, the barrel itself is 200.375cm.



Couldn't I just have some idiot carrying a large explosive charge and throw it at the tank? Knowing the terribleness of tank visibility they probably wouldn't even know what hit them.

How exceptionally Japanese... or Churchill's last ditch army type stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ0emX5RgZQ

Yes but what's the barrel length? Caliber is determined by dividing the bore of the barrel by length of the barrel, all in millimeters. So 30 divided by....

What purp said and it's the length of the bore by its diameter. It can also be done in any unit as long as the length and diameter are in the same unit.

Ford did mention 2m but I don't know if that's overall or just the barrel.

Just the barrel. Overall the gun is 2.72m, and with the carriage it's 3.9m. It seems really huge after I measured it out with a tape measure, but scaling it down next to a person it's not too big, but it certainly is big for a 30mm.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Yes but what's the barrel length? Caliber is determined by dividing the bore of the barrel by length of the barrel, all in millimeters. So 30 divided by....

No, caliber is the measure of the bore diameter. What you are talking is barrel length expressed in barrel calibers as a unit.

Fine. Whatever. Shut up. I know more than you.

Ford's gun is the 30mm L/66.

Couldn't I just have some idiot carrying a large explosive charge and throw it at the tank? Knowing the terribleness of tank visibility they probably wouldn't even know what hit them.

If your tankers run buttoned up all the time and the infantry know enough to spread out around the tanks, then sure, that would work. Proper training means that this probably won't work very well, however.

I remember some story in the Pacific war of a Japanese suicide bomber throwing himself under a Sherman that was advancing while carrying a satchel charge. The driver, having known the Japanese are prone to do this in the absence of better antitank weapons, was prepared and threw the tank into reverse. The tank was fine.

You'd have better luck attaching an antitank grenade to a pole, and ambushing tanks by shoving the pole into the running gear. You're still very likely to kill yourself doing that, but it's apples and high explosive oranges really.

[Fordorsia]

Ford's gun is the 30mm L/66.

but but M35 Heavy Rifle

[Husseinarti]

(Yes that is the confederate uniform I just like how it looks I don't support the ideals.)

Articles of Confederation were p bad

[EsToVnIa]

san's comment made me die a little on the inside

americans not even knowing their own history rip