Infantry Discussion Thread 9: Parabellum [NO KAIJU]

[Fordorsia]

Classical cataphracts never fought dismounted unless they'd been unhorsed

In which case they would be dead :>

[Eisarn-Ara]

Classical cataphracts never fought dismounted unless they'd been unhorsed; they were shock cavalry.

Okay? That's irrelevant when mr. thunderstick comes to be and the need to not get shot off your damn horse makes it practical to dismount, and shoot the other guy with your own thunderstick from behind cover.

[Fordorsia]

Yeah because the introduction of guns made heavy cavalry go away...

[Gallia-]

Yeah because the introduction of guns made heavy cavalry go away...

ftfy

[The East Marches]

Yeah because the introduction of guns made heavy cavalry go away...

Yes, yes it did. The last cavalry charge of old was von Bredow's death ride. There is a reason it is called a "death ride". It was not because many of them survived. 50% casualties, the force was rendered combat ineffective afterwards. Those armies that did not learn the lessons of his death ride in 1870, found out that in 1914 the bolt action rifle and the Maxim gun make cavalry charges of old foolish.

Only the British kept any kind of mobile cavalry but even they knew that cavalry was dead and used them instead as a force of mounted rapid movement infantry.

[Eisarn-Ara]

Yeah because the introduction of guns made heavy cavalry go away...

Yes, yes it did. The last cavalry charge of old was von Bredow's death ride. There is a reason it is called a "death ride". It was not because many of them survived. 50% casualties, the force was rendered combat ineffective afterwards. Those armies that did not learn the lessons of his death ride in 1870, found out that in 1914 the bolt action rifle and the Maxim gun make cavalry charges of old foolish.

Only the British kept any kind of mobile cavalry but even they knew that cavalry was dead and used them instead as a force of mounted rapid movement infantry.

And dragoons don't do cavalry charges (usually, not without dying horribly as you've so eloquently described), dismounting somewhere else is usually the right way to go about things.

[To Quoc Duc]

Yeah because the introduction of guns made heavy cavalry go away...

Yes, yes it did. The last cavalry charge of old was von Bredow's death ride. There is a reason it is called a "death ride". It was not because many of them survived. 50% casualties, the force was rendered combat ineffective afterwards. Those armies that did not learn the lessons of his death ride in 1870, found out that in 1914 the bolt action rifle and the Maxim gun make cavalry charges of old foolish.

Only the British kept any kind of mobile cavalry but even they knew that cavalry was dead and used them instead as a force of mounted rapid movement infantry.

This is correct, they really functioned more as dragoons than traditional European cavalry.

[To Quoc Duc]

Yes, yes it did. The last cavalry charge of old was von Bredow's death ride. There is a reason it is called a "death ride". It was not because many of them survived. 50% casualties, the force was rendered combat ineffective afterwards. Those armies that did not learn the lessons of his death ride in 1870, found out that in 1914 the bolt action rifle and the Maxim gun make cavalry charges of old foolish.

Only the British kept any kind of mobile cavalry but even they knew that cavalry was dead and used them instead as a force of mounted rapid movement infantry.

And dragoons don't do cavalry charges (usually, not without dying horribly as you've so eloquently described), dismounting somewhere else is usually the right way to go about things.

Depends on the era, honestly. 17th Century, you're correct. 19th-20th century, you're correct. 18th century however, for a brief period of time, dragoons actually became synonymous with standard medium (regular) cavalry and functioned as such. So yes, and no - they did have dismount capability for most of their history, but would actually conduct mass charges and not necessarily get slaughtered, for that one century.

I know this seemingly contradicts what I literally just posted above, but I was only saying it because I find this stuff interesting and thought it was worth throwing out just for the fun of it.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Classical cataphracts never fought dismounted unless they'd been unhorsed; they were shock cavalry.

Okay? That's irrelevant when mr. thunderstick comes to be and the need to not get shot off your damn horse makes it practical to dismount, and shoot the other guy with your own thunderstick from behind cover.

Well, I don't know your nation's history with guns and shit.

Anyway, why have all that cataphract armor if you have guns? The cataphract is a very specific type of shock cavalry, and one that impressed everyone who either used it or fought against it, but as was said guns made heavy cavalry go away. Cavalry would still exist for a while, but the emphasis on armor would never again be a thing with horse combat.

[Fordorsia]

Yeah because the introduction of guns made heavy cavalry go away...

Yes, yes it did. The last cavalry charge of old was von Bredow's death ride. There is a reason it is called a "death ride". It was not because many of them survived. 50% casualties, the force was rendered combat ineffective afterwards. Those armies that did not learn the lessons of his death ride in 1870, found out that in 1914 the bolt action rifle and the Maxim gun make cavalry charges of old foolish.

Only the British kept any kind of mobile cavalry but even they knew that cavalry was dead and used them instead as a force of mounted rapid movement infantry.

TIL guns were invented in 1870

[Eisarn-Ara]

I know this seemingly contradicts what I literally just posted above, but I was only saying it because I find this stuff interesting and thought it was worth throwing out just for the fun of it.

In a sense, the 18th century application of the dragoon was the "Experimental" phase of figuring things out. Like a Co-ed feeling edgy in a bad late 90s sitcom.

Anyway, why have all that cataphract armor if you have guns? The cataphract is a very specific type of shock cavalry, and one that impressed everyone who either used it or fought against it, but as was said guns made heavy cavalry go away. Cavalry would still exist for a while, but the emphasis on armor would never again be a thing with horse combat.

While true, Eisarn-Ara has the great misfortune is dealing with lots of uppity natives and colonial neighbors, so actually seeing mounted riflemen with heavy weapons (for the 19th century, ect) using some form of armor to protect themselves to a degree is not unheard of in the IKE timeline. Most of the countries history with cavalry began with Roman & Byzantine cavalry doctrines of the conventional variety, but close to a millenia of fighting on the steppes and other assorted shitholes changed how they viewed & used them, having at some point in the past (roughly a century or two prior to this theoretical epoch) consolidated alot of their cavalry units for assaulting purposes either into scouting & skirmishing roles or keeping the "Kataphraktoi" name both a way to invoke ancient luck upon the unit and because they were effectively "heavy infantry" in an anecdotal sense due to the armaments available to them.

[The East Marches]

Yes, yes it did. The last cavalry charge of old was von Bredow's death ride. There is a reason it is called a "death ride". It was not because many of them survived. 50% casualties, the force was rendered combat ineffective afterwards. Those armies that did not learn the lessons of his death ride in 1870, found out that in 1914 the bolt action rifle and the Maxim gun make cavalry charges of old foolish.

Only the British kept any kind of mobile cavalry but even they knew that cavalry was dead and used them instead as a force of mounted rapid movement infantry.

TIL guns were invented in 1870

You made a sarcastic remark implying that heavy cavalry never went away. I proved you wrong and provided facts to back up my argument. Unless you care to counter my facts with facts, you are in the wrong. Accept it or come up with something other than snark as a reply.

[Gallia-]

the historical parallels between something like napoleon or 1870 are so far removed from the modern day you could know nothing about them and be better off, because you wont be making dumb literal parallels/analogies and be able to examine things as they are rather than what they appear to be

what sort of cavalry is a fighter-bomber squadron?

[Fordorsia]

TIL guns were invented in 1870

You made a sarcastic remark implying that heavy cavalry never went away. I proved you wrong and provided facts to back up my argument. Unless you care to counter my facts with facts, you are in the wrong. Accept it or come up with something other than snark as a reply.

You want me to refute your claims that guns magically appeared in 1870 and that heavy cavalry disappeared as a result? Are you genuinely on crack?

[Amiero]

Dragoons fight dismounted.

in Reichskamphen [my backwards nation] dragoons have morphed into elite mechanized infantry.

In some armies they could do both, in the days of horseback cavalry. The men of the U.S. Army Cavalry could function as light cavalry, or dismount and fight on foot.

[The East Marches]

You made a sarcastic remark implying that heavy cavalry never went away. I proved you wrong and provided facts to back up my argument. Unless you care to counter my facts with facts, you are in the wrong. Accept it or come up with something other than snark as a reply.

You want me to refute your claims that guns magically appeared in 1870 and that heavy cavalry disappeared as a result? Are you genuinely on crack?

You are the one who made the claim, not me. Don't try to turn this. Either answer properly or admit defeat. There are no alternatives. You can't snark or sarcasm your way out of having been proven wrong.

[EsToVnIa]

the historical parallels between something like napoleon or 1870 are so far removed from the modern day you could know nothing about them and be better off, because you wont be making dumb literal parallels/analogies and be able to examine things as they are rather than what they appear to be

what sort of cavalry is a fighter-bomber squadron?

cavalry doesn't fly

[Fordorsia]

You want me to refute your claims that guns magically appeared in 1870 and that heavy cavalry disappeared as a result? Are you genuinely on crack?

You are the one who made the claim, not me. Don't try to turn this. Either answer properly or admit defeat. There are no alternatives. You can't snark or sarcasm your way out of having been proven wrong.

The last cavalry charge of old was von Bredow's death ride.

You made a sarcastic remark implying that heavy cavalry never went away. I proved you wrong and provided facts to back up my argument.

You got me, I totally claimed these things, these things I was saying are completely retarded. Take me away officer.

[Gallia-]

the historical parallels between something like napoleon or 1870 are so far removed from the modern day you could know nothing about them and be better off, because you wont be making dumb literal parallels/analogies and be able to examine things as they are rather than what they appear to be

what sort of cavalry is a fighter-bomber squadron?

cavalry doesn't fly

the cavalry will rise again

to take its place as america's sole land force combat arm

[The East Marches]

You are the one who made the claim, not me. Don't try to turn this. Either answer properly or admit defeat. There are no alternatives. You can't snark or sarcasm your way out of having been proven wrong.

The last cavalry charge of old was von Bredow's death ride.

You made a sarcastic remark implying that heavy cavalry never went away. I proved you wrong and provided facts to back up my argument.

You got me, I totally claimed these things, these things I was saying are completely retarded. Take me away officer.

Again with the snark to disguise your weakness. I have proven my point, you have not. Either answer properly or admit defeat. Its not hard to act like a man.

[Militia of the Free]

cavalry doesn't fly

the cavalry will rise again

to take its place as america's sole land force combat arm

I never understood how cavalry became airmobile infantry.

Then again cavalry in the Dutch army = tanks.

[Fordorsia]

You got me, I totally claimed these things, these things I was saying are completely retarded. Take me away officer.

Again with the snark to disguise your weakness. I have proven my point, you have not. Either answer properly or admit defeat.

Guns weren't invented in 1870 and heavy cavalry didn't disappear as a result. There you go.

Its not hard to act like a man.

I'm a girl so it kind of is

(Image)

the cavalry will rise again

to take its place as america's sole land force combat arm

I never understood how cavalry became airmobile infantry.

Then again cavalry in the Dutch army = tanks.

Early "fast" tanks were designed to break through the enemy lines and hit them from the rear. Helicopter infantry did the same except they simply flew over the enemy and could go some place really fast. They do what cavalry did.

[The East Marches]

Guns weren't invented in 1870 and heavy cavalry didn't disappear as a result. There you go.

That is altering your original claim. So you admit defeat?

I'm a girl so it kind of is

That explains your conduct.

[Amiero]

That explains your conduct.

I'm not the sort to whine to the Mod Squad, but that's pretty blatant. You had best be more careful.

I have proven my point, you have not. Either answer properly or admit defeat. Its not hard to act like a man.

Heavy cavalry was a thing into the 1900s. At the start of the First World War, the British, French, Austrian, German, and Russian armies, and likely others, still had multiple regiments of heavy horse, which they sent into combat as before. They got chewed to pieces, but they were present.

[Fordorsia]

Can someone take over? I'm not qualified to care for the mentally impaired.