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Infantry Discussion Thread 9: Parabellum [NO KAIJU]

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No step on snek

Reeeeeeeeeee
4
8%
Oh fug :D DDDDD
2
4%
10mm best mm
5
9%
Ford should stop posting swords
16
30%
Puz is eternal leader of IDT
17
32%
Kyiv is not actually a tank but instead is a man trapped inside a tanks body
5
9%
Other assorted memes
4
8%
 
Total votes : 53

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EsToVnIa
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Postby EsToVnIa » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:36 am

Image

should be good now

(i think)

OAL is ~46.6 mm, so the cartridge itself is 6x46.

Bullet is 93 gr with a G7 BC of 0.35 (iirc) and a density of 9.3

Ultimately i'm expecting it to be subpar when compared to 5.56 NATO, unless maybe i lengthen the case by another 2mm

tl;dr just a live showing of why 6mm SAW is dumb

Puzikas wrote:Main culinary nightmare of your nation part I (No Surströmming)
Nirvs gotta have some good ones.


Lutefisk is cancer

maybe because i ate it when it was out of season?

i cba to make a proper list but i can firmly say Burger King chicken nuggets breaks my top 10

e: i just realised i could've made a "not the worst thing that's been in my mouth ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)" joke :(
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Ardavia
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Postby Ardavia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:39 am

Puzikas wrote:Surströmming is on the list. It is number two. The smell is not the worst thing I have smelled, it's not in the top 10, but is in the top 20.

Main culinary nightmare of your nation part I (No Surströmming)
Nirvs gotta have some good ones.


surströmming isn't that bad...

I can't even type that with a straight face haha

fuck surströmming
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Puzikas
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Postby Puzikas » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:47 am

I ate it on a dare. Whole can. 45,000 rub pot for the man who finished it, and two days off to get the smell away, in 2002. I don't remember how much it was (in USD) but it was not enough. I threw up, I gagged, I coughed, I cried, but I hate all 140 grams of it.

Estovnia wrote:: i just realised i could've made a "not the worst thing that's been in my mouth ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)" joke


Acknowledged.

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Estovnia wrote:OAL is ~46.6 mm, so the cartridge itself is 6x46


Round up heathen
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Fordorsia
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Postby Fordorsia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:26 am

Puz should have his own show in which he travels the world and talks shit about different cultures' food.

Estovnia wrote:maybe because i ate it when it was out of season?


Isn't that the whole point?
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 3:51 am

Puzikas wrote:And now for something completely different.

We shift our eyes now to the Chineese Peoples Liberation Army Police (PLAP).

In the Xinjiang Uyghur autonomous region, the Chineese Gendarmerie patrol the streets with wolf tooths maces to deter an increase in sword attacks from the local Uyghur population.

Would those maces be any use as a thrusting weapon? It's the only way I can envisage a mace directly tackling a sword.
Fordorsia wrote:Either way why give your officers oversized maces and handi-grips when you can use common sense and give them better guns? Is 40k real life all of a sudden?

Because the idea is control, disarmament and arrest, as Puz stated.
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Ardavia
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Postby Ardavia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:11 am

assault squad of 10 men (8 SMGs + 2 not!Brens, everyone gets three hand grenades) for urban combat in a 1940s-setting Y/N
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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:59 am

Fordorsia wrote:Puz should have his own show in which he travels the world and talks shit about different cultures' food.

Estovnia wrote:maybe because i ate it when it was out of season?


Isn't that the whole point?

Well it would certainly have a very different tone to Rick Stein...

It would be like the hairy bikers if they weren't a pair of surprisingly effeminate luveys...
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:03 am

Bayonets are cooking utensils.
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:22 am

La Cosa Fedora wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:


1) The bullet wasn't literally poisons, it was nicknamed that because of it's lethality.
2) Why do you want to give special forces different guns? They offer no real increase in performance over the AK-74 and it's projectile.
3) While they could use the same bullet with a rebuild, there own projectiles are just as deadly. but again their would be no real performance difference.
4) For a given value of armor piercing, yes. It will punch through body armor, but it won't be going through armored vehicles.

EDIT: Here read these posts nice knowledgeable people have written. More can be found in the original post of this thread.

Wait so you are saying that American or Israeli guns aren't better than the AK-74???


You can argue tiny performance differences, but basically they preform close enough that yes American and Israeli gun's aren't any better than the AK-74. Some on this thread would argue that the AK-74 is better than equivalent guns from other cultures.

Puzikas wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:EDIT: Here read these posts nice knowledgeable people have written. More can be found in the original post of this thread.


Didn't even link him to part 2
You hate me :(


It was midnight, my GF wanted to go to bed. Home life won over sperg life. Move in with me and that might change.

Puzikas wrote:
Surströmming is on the list. It is number two. The smell is not the worst thing I have smelled, it's not in the top 10, but is in the top 20.

Main culinary nightmare of your nation part I (No Surströmming)
Nirvs gotta have some good ones.


I want to come up with something, but am busy eating and don't want to think about bad food.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:52 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Puzikas wrote:
Didn't even link him to part 2
You hate me :(


It was midnight, my GF wanted to go to bed. Home life won over sperg life. Move in with me and that might change.

Support biblical marriage! One SoH and as many wives and sex slaves as he can afford!
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Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:02 am

Puzikas wrote:
La Cosa Fedora wrote:I like the idea of the infamous "poison bullet" that the Soviets used in Afghanistan, but I want some of my forces to have more expensive guns than the kalashnikov. Would something like American or Israeli guns but built to use the poison bullet be better than just a plain old kalashnikov?


Hi there, I'm the looser who posts about terminal performance in these threads.
First, welcome.
Second, no dumb questions (unless you're purp), only dumb answers.

As SoH said:
1. There is no poison bullet in a literal sense. The 5.45x39mm 7N6 projectile fired by the Soviet AK-74 series rifle utilizes a principal called "Yaw" to incapacitate a target. Yaw is the inversion of the projectile by way of causing inherit instability on the projectiles body during its terminal phase, the point at which the bullet strikes it's target.
Yaw generates large wound cavities relative to their projectile size, and as such are very deadly. This is PROBABLY what netted 7N6 its "poison bullet" nickname, but its untrue and a misnomer.


Here is a gif/vid of Larry Vickers firing a Bulgarian AK-74.

http://i.imgur.com/yeDlNBS.mp4

Puz, since you've been over there, didn't the Russians tighten the twist rate of the barrel for better accuracy? I'm seeing a lot of similarities to Project AGILE's results in ballistics, and what the US military did by increasing the twist rate to improve accuracy.

I see that the yawing of the bullet happens when it exits the barrel, not at it's terminal phase.
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Outer Laurasia
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Postby Outer Laurasia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:47 am

Ardavia wrote:assault squad of 10 men (8 SMGs + 2 not!Brens, everyone gets three hand grenades) for urban combat in a 1940s-setting Y/N


You want carbines, shotguns, or even maybe give members of this assault squad handguns. SMGs are great, but not if you have to deal with rooms full of people.
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Postby Allanea » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:50 am

Outer Laurasia wrote:
Ardavia wrote:assault squad of 10 men (8 SMGs + 2 not!Brens, everyone gets three hand grenades) for urban combat in a 1940s-setting Y/N


You want carbines, shotguns, or even maybe give members of this assault squad handguns. SMGs are great, but not if you have to deal with rooms full of people.


SMGs are awesome for roomfuls of people.
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:50 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:
It was midnight, my GF wanted to go to bed. Home life won over sperg life. Move in with me and that might change.

Support biblical marriage! One SoH and as many wives and sex slaves as he can afford!

That's in my sig now.

Rhodesialund wrote:
Puzikas wrote:
Hi there, I'm the looser who posts about terminal performance in these threads.
First, welcome.
Second, no dumb questions (unless you're purp), only dumb answers.

As SoH said:
1. There is no poison bullet in a literal sense. The 5.45x39mm 7N6 projectile fired by the Soviet AK-74 series rifle utilizes a principal called "Yaw" to incapacitate a target. Yaw is the inversion of the projectile by way of causing inherit instability on the projectiles body during its terminal phase, the point at which the bullet strikes it's target.
Yaw generates large wound cavities relative to their projectile size, and as such are very deadly. This is PROBABLY what netted 7N6 its "poison bullet" nickname, but its untrue and a misnomer.


Here is a gif/vid of Larry Vickers firing a Bulgarian AK-74.

http://i.imgur.com/yeDlNBS.mp4

Puz, since you've been over there, didn't the Russians tighten the twist rate of the barrel for better accuracy? I'm seeing a lot of similarities to Project AGILE's results in ballistics, and what the US military did by increasing the twist rate to improve accuracy.

I see that the yawing of the bullet happens when it exits the barrel, not at it's terminal phase.


The yawing should only start in the terminal phase, otherwise the bullet won't be all that effective. IIRC the yawing begins when impact causes a deformation in the tip of the bullet.

Outer Laurasia wrote:
Ardavia wrote:assault squad of 10 men (8 SMGs + 2 not!Brens, everyone gets three hand grenades) for urban combat in a 1940s-setting Y/N


You want carbines, shotguns, or even maybe give members of this assault squad handguns. SMGs are great, but not if you have to deal with rooms full of people.


SMG's are great for rooms full of people, especially with grenades, they aren't so great for ranged shooting. Shotguns isn't a bad idea though, and having carbines around would held with the ranged shooting.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:54 am

Is it deformation? I always assumed it was deceleration forces, with the inertia of the heavy tail cause it to tumble.
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:57 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:Is it deformation? I always assumed it was deceleration forces, with the inertia of the heavy tail cause it to tumble.

It could easily be both, I just thought Puz mentioned a deformation of the tip in one of his ballistic posts.
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:08 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Rhodesialund wrote:
Here is a gif/vid of Larry Vickers firing a Bulgarian AK-74.

http://i.imgur.com/yeDlNBS.mp4

Puz, since you've been over there, didn't the Russians tighten the twist rate of the barrel for better accuracy? I'm seeing a lot of similarities to Project AGILE's results in ballistics, and what the US military did by increasing the twist rate to improve accuracy.

I see that the yawing of the bullet happens when it exits the barrel, not at it's terminal phase.


The yawing should only start in the terminal phase, otherwise the bullet won't be all that effective. IIRC the yawing begins when impact causes a deformation in the tip of the bullet.


And I don't disagree. Contrary to this, the yawing of the bullet during it's travel phase (More apropriately known as keyholing) provides a greater surface area for energy to disperse itself as it impact something. Which leads me to the reasonable suspicion that the "Poison Bullet" gained it notoriety from the "keyholing" aspect of the cartridge, thanks to the twist rate of the rifle.

What brought me to the comparison of the "Poison Bullet" to Project AGILE is that the original AR-15s had a twist rate of 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 inches. The bullet was never stabilized and that is why referencing to AGILE will always bring up the evidence of how deadly the .223 cartridge was in the eyes of the users and observers at the time. The US Military wanted the twist rate tightened for better accuracy, which happened.
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Rhodesialund
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Postby Rhodesialund » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:08 am

Rhodesialund wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:
The yawing should only start in the terminal phase, otherwise the bullet won't be all that effective. IIRC the yawing begins when impact causes a deformation in the tip of the bullet.


And I don't disagree. Contrary to this, the yawing of the bullet during it's travel phase (More apropriately known as keyholing) provides a greater surface area for energy to disperse itself as it impact something. Which leads me to the reasonable suspicion that the "Poison Bullet" gained it notoriety from the "keyholing" aspect of the cartridge, thanks to the twist rate of the rifle or bullet weight.

What brought me to the comparison of the "Poison Bullet" to Project AGILE is that the original AR-15s had a twist rate of 1 in 12 or 1 in 14 inches. The bullet was never stabilized and that is why referencing to AGILE will always bring up the evidence of how deadly the .223 cartridge was in the eyes of the users and observers at the time. The US Military wanted the twist rate tightened for better accuracy, which happened.
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Aqizithiuda
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Postby Aqizithiuda » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:26 am

Estovnia wrote:(Image)

should be good now

(i think)

OAL is ~46.6 mm, so the cartridge itself is 6x46.

Bullet is 93 gr with a G7 BC of 0.35 (iirc) and a density of 9.3

Ultimately i'm expecting it to be subpar when compared to 5.56 NATO, unless maybe i lengthen the case by another 2mm

tl;dr just a live showing of why 6mm SAW is dumb

Puzikas wrote:Main culinary nightmare of your nation part I (No Surströmming)
Nirvs gotta have some good ones.


Lutefisk is cancer

maybe because i ate it when it was out of season?

i cba to make a proper list but i can firmly say Burger King chicken nuggets breaks my top 10

e: i just realised i could've made a "not the worst thing that's been in my mouth ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)" joke :(


The width is what, 12mm? You're probably looking at a cartridge weighing less than 14g with an MV over 900m/s.

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Postby Outer Laurasia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:30 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:SMG's are great for rooms full of people, especially with grenades, they aren't so great for ranged shooting. Shotguns isn't a bad idea though, and having carbines around would held with the ranged shooting.


I meant that SMGs will shoot straight through walls, and possibly injure civilians/hostages. Even if there are no hostages, I've always seen a shotgun as something better to have after the door has been breached and you're clearing a room. Very controllable, with a tight-but-devastating pellet spread at the distance of the average firefight.
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:40 am

Outer Laurasia wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:SMG's are great for rooms full of people, especially with grenades, they aren't so great for ranged shooting. Shotguns isn't a bad idea though, and having carbines around would held with the ranged shooting.


I meant that SMGs will shoot straight through walls, and possibly injure civilians/hostages. Even if there are no hostages, I've always seen a shotgun as something better to have after the door has been breached and you're clearing a room. Very controllable, with a tight-but-devastating pellet spread at the distance of the average firefight.


It has been stated this is for a 1940s assault squad, so I imagine it is more for use by the military in something approximating WW2. Civilians are going to be out of luck, what with the artillery, tanks, mines, and rifle fire.

SMGS notably have less penetration than rifles, which is one reason that police still tend to use them, there less likely to over penetrate and hit a civilian.

While shotguns are great in close combat, they don't exactly hold a lot of ammo and reload fast, especially the ones common in the 1940s. It wouldn't be bad to have one or two around, they can be handy in specific situations, but as a primary weapon they fall behind an SMG or assault rifle, and assault rifles aren't really around yet.
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Postby The Kievan People » Fri Aug 26, 2016 8:43 am

Puzikas wrote:In my defense my Chinese used to be decent enough and I was squatting and squinting
Maybe they thought I was legit?
I did most definitely eat cat though.
Wasn't the first time but it was the first time I'd had it BBQd. 6/10, sauce was saving grace. Cat is still too mealy and weird for me.


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Postby Fordorsia » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:10 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:While shotguns are great in close combat, they don't exactly hold a lot of ammo and reload fast


Speaking of which, I don't get why police forces all over the world haven't adopted the Saiga/Saiga clones. It would be just as cheap as getting AKs made (give or take, I guess), while being far, far better than any tube magazine shotgun ever made. More shells, faster firing, faster reload, so what's the dealio? Is using Russian weapons really looked down upon in western countries?
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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:13 am

Outer Laurasia wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:SMG's are great for rooms full of people, especially with grenades, they aren't so great for ranged shooting. Shotguns isn't a bad idea though, and having carbines around would held with the ranged shooting.


I meant that SMGs will shoot straight through walls, and possibly injure civilians/hostages. Even if there are no hostages, I've always seen a shotgun as something better to have after the door has been breached and you're clearing a room. Very controllable, with a tight-but-devastating pellet spread at the distance of the average firefight.

As said it's for 1940 so for short range automatic fire there isn't anything other than a SMG.

The whole SMGs penetrative more than carbine is more to with how some 5.56mm bullets react to drywall/plaster board and cavity internal wall construction (ie a barrier and space to set the projectile tumbling before it impacts the next barrier) than the fact that rifle ammo will penetrative less than pistol ammo.

As to the original question it would be a bit much for the period as it's a big investment in equipment for a specialised ground, not even lavishly equipped groups like the commandos could match that.

It is much more likely once you get 43 onwards and SMGs have become cheaper than rifles although you might still want some kind of rifle as a marksman's peice.

Of course as an ad-hoc grouping for a specific task it would work early on.
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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:19 am

Fordorsia wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:While shotguns are great in close combat, they don't exactly hold a lot of ammo and reload fast


Speaking of which, I don't get why police forces all over the world haven't adopted the Saiga/Saiga clones. It would be just as cheap as getting AKs made (give or take, I guess), while being far, far better than any tube magazine shotgun ever made. More shells, faster firing, faster reload, so what's the dealio? Is using Russian weapons really looked down upon in western countries?

Well buying anything Russian is very much a political no no for any western government agency and was even before the recent Fallings out.

They are also seen as being unessicary, there have been a few box mag fed semi auto shotguns and none of them have ever really made much of an impact.

There is a huge established institutional idea of what a police shotgun should be and that is pretty much a pump shotgun with a tube mag, even semi autos are rare.
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