Infantry Discussion Thread 9: Parabellum [NO KAIJU]

[Puzikas]

Oh no im aware of the 9x18s use, but they literally have a revolver thats chambered in a round with specs similar to the SAAMI/CIP dimensions for .38 Special needs but fires like a 76 grain bullet at 290m/s or something.

[Gallia-]

no i meant it was a comment and he said stopping power unironically

[Minroz]

-snip-

Wow, this is fascinating. I can say one could imagined making a Kung Fu movie out of this like those of Hong Kong Police films.

[Fordorsia]

As you can see, they take multiple rounds to stop and just keep going.

I'm wondering how many times they were actually hit though. The officers are running away and shooting at the same time, which takes accuracy down to like 0.

[Puzikas]

no i meant it was a comment and he said stopping power unironically

O
Ew

I thought you were quoting like a Wikipedia page or something.

As you can see, they take multiple rounds to stop and just keep going.

I'm wondering how many times they were actually hit though. The officers are running away and shooting at the same time, which takes accuracy down to like 0.

I'd say several times each.

[Fordorsia]

Either way why give your officers oversized maces and handi-grips when you can use common sense and give them better guns? Is 40k real life all of a sudden?

[Outer Laurasia]

Hi, new to these sorts of discussions as well as the website in general. I've been doing research for a couple hours and I've come up with this setup for my MT/early PMT nation. Tell me what you guys think and what needs to be changed/added.

[La Cosa Fedora]

Not sure if stupid question...

I like the idea of the infamous "poison bullet" that the Soviets used in Afghanistan, but I want some of my forces to have more expensive guns than the kalashnikov. Would something like American or Israeli guns but built to use the poison bullet be better than just a plain old kalashnikov?

Also can there be armor piercing bullets in that exact caliber/size?

[Spirit of Hope]

Hi, new to these sorts of discussions as well as the website in general. I've been doing research for a couple hours and I've come up with this setup for my MT/early PMT nation. Tell me what you guys think and what needs to be changed/added.

Welcome. For the detail present in that post you've missed almost all of the pitfalls new posters usually have. It looks good, is clear, concise, and doesn't have any glaring issues. If you want to go into more detail you could look at heavier weapons used by your armed forces, such as artillery, mortars, ATGM's, other armored vehicles, details of unit organization, etc.

Another thread that is a little better suited to your question is NS Military Realism X, some of the former incarnations of that thread and this thread may have some documents you may find useful.

Not sure if stupid question...

I like the idea of the infamous "poison bullet" that the Soviets used in Afghanistan, but I want some of my forces to have more expensive guns than the kalashnikov. Would something like American or Israeli guns but built to use the poison bullet be better than just a plain old kalashnikov?

Also can there be armor piercing bullets in that exact caliber/size?

1) The bullet wasn't literally poisons, it was nicknamed that because of it's lethality.
2) Why do you want to give special forces different guns? They offer no real increase in performance over the AK-74 and it's projectile.
3) While they could use the same bullet with a rebuild, there own projectiles are just as deadly. but again their would be no real performance difference.
4) For a given value of armor piercing, yes. It will punch through body armor, but it won't be going through armored vehicles.

EDIT: Here read these posts nice knowledgeable people have written. More can be found in the original post of this thread.

[EsToVnIa]

better now?

[Gallia-]

yes except it looks like the hole the bullet is supposed to come out of ends up tapering off/closing up

the case mouth should be approximately the bullet diameter like in conventionally cased cartridges

so then i guess what is the triangular thing at the top?

[EsToVnIa]

yes except it looks like the hole the bullet is supposed to come out of ends up tapering off/closing up

what is the triangular thing at the top?

the triangular thing (which i actually just noticed is broken rn) was a stability thing i saw on a random cutaway that was to keep the bullet centre.

i was wondering that since as it stands rn, the cartridge dimensions are 6x43; could i get away with increasing the case length by 2-4 mm to get more powder in?

[La Cosa Fedora]

Not sure if stupid question...

I like the idea of the infamous "poison bullet" that the Soviets used in Afghanistan, but I want some of my forces to have more expensive guns than the kalashnikov. Would something like American or Israeli guns but built to use the poison bullet be better than just a plain old kalashnikov?

Also can there be armor piercing bullets in that exact caliber/size?

1) The bullet wasn't literally poisons, it was nicknamed that because of it's lethality.
2) Why do you want to give special forces different guns? They offer no real increase in performance over the AK-74 and it's projectile.
3) While they could use the same bullet with a rebuild, there own projectiles are just as deadly. but again their would be no real performance difference.
4) For a given value of armor piercing, yes. It will punch through body armor, but it won't be going through armored vehicles.

EDIT: Here read these posts nice knowledgeable people have written. More can be found in the original post of this thread.

Wait so you are saying that American or Israeli guns aren't better than the AK-74???

[Gallia-]

yes except it looks like the hole the bullet is supposed to come out of ends up tapering off/closing up

what is the triangular thing at the top?

the triangular thing (which i actually just noticed is broken rn) was a stability thing i saw on a random cutaway that was to keep the bullet centre.

i was wondering that since as it stands rn, the cartridge dimensions are 6x43; could i get away with increasing the case length by 2-4 mm to get more powder in?

ive never seen such a thing but it appears to be an artefact of the earliest LSAT ammunitions

if the mouth is as wide as the cannelure it should keep the bullet centered regardless

[EsToVnIa]

aye, it was from another line drawing so I guess it was probably in accurate.

somewhat unrelated, but is there any advantage to the cap being like that, or was that just the aesthetics that was decided for the programme?

[Gallia-]

well, CL 5.56mm and earlier 5.56mm CTA had plastic caps, as did g11, but...

im not sure what its real purpose is since the only thing saying its for seating the bullet is wikipedia, and that seems a bit unlikely

the cutaway is from a research paper regarding 5.56mm CTA (ironically it's about bullet yaw from chamber misalignment, although it's unclear whether its talking about the round seating in the cartridge, or a swinging chamber action), and it has no cap and neither did the various trounds nor hughes lockless

i suspect it may be for obturation, but it just as well might be for weather sealing or something

e: also i lied i think the larger automatic cannon trounds had caps

[EsToVnIa]

So i should be fine with the flat cap then

[Puzikas]

EDIT: Here read these posts nice knowledgeable people have written. More can be found in the original post of this thread.

Didn't even link him to part 2
You hate me

I like the idea of the infamous "poison bullet" that the Soviets used in Afghanistan, but I want some of my forces to have more expensive guns than the kalashnikov. Would something like American or Israeli guns but built to use the poison bullet be better than just a plain old kalashnikov?

Hi there, I'm the looser who posts about terminal performance in these threads.
First, welcome.
Second, no dumb questions (unless you're purp), only dumb answers.

As SoH said:
1. There is no poison bullet in a literal sense. The 5.45x39mm 7N6 projectile fired by the Soviet AK-74 series rifle utilizes a principal called "Yaw" to incapacitate a target. Yaw is the inversion of the projectile by way of causing inherit instability on the projectiles body during its terminal phase, the point at which the bullet strikes it's target.
Yaw generates large wound cavities relative to their projectile size, and as such are very deadly. This is PROBABLY what netted 7N6 its "poison bullet" nickname, but its untrue and a misnomer.

but I want some of my forces to have more expensive guns than the kalashnikov.

There's no real reason to do so, the cost of firearms is negligable at best for most militaries, and you won't see any significant performance increase really. Basically all modern rifles firing what we call SCHVs-Small Caliber, High Velocity cartridges, like 5.56x45mm, 5.45x39mm, and 5.8x42mm, will be generally comparable in paper based performance.

Would something like American or Israeli guns but built to use the poison bullet be better than just a plain old kalashnikov?

Not especially no. You could make a lot of rifles fire 5.45x39mm really, but there's not a lot of point to it. It won't be marginally better in any real way for a military rifle than the AK-74M(2). The only motivation to use a new rifle would be standardization or alliance blocks, to which you would be less likely to change just the rifle, but also ammunition.

Also can there be armor piercing bullets in that exact caliber/size?

7N6M, 7N10, 7N22, 7N24 all have enhanced armor defeating characteristics.

[Aqizithiuda]

And now for something completely different.

We shift our eyes now to the Chineese Peoples Liberation Army Police (PLAP).

In the Xinjiang Uyghur autonomous region, the Chineese Gendarmerie patrol the streets with wolf tooths maces to deter an increase in sword attacks from the local Uyghur population.

Following the Kunming Train-Station Massacre in 2014 which lest 33 killed and 143 wounded, the Chineese have literally chosen to go medieval on their local terrorist populations asses by issuing troop melee weapons, including Wolf's tooth maces, sheilds, spears, two handed batons and people grabbers.

Http://i.imgur.com/LznUzjN.jpg
Http://i.imgur.com/cp3oXVx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Qa4Q9N9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qHKWxs1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/czTYZ7v.jpg

The idea is a patrol has different levels of escalation: passive, incapacitating, force compliance, and lethal force in the form of an officer armed with a long arm.
I do not know if everyone in the patrol carries a pistol, but what I know about the PLAP (besides that no, they are not actually called the PLAP, I just call them that for keks) not every officer carries a gun. Some officer carry traumatic pistols that shoot hardened plastic ammo similar to rubber shot, but actually more dangerous, and others carry revolvers in a caliber weaker than .38 Special (it's more in line with .32ACP I think?) that require less training than normal, but generally there are QRF type police units in most police precincts.

The officer with the person grabber is supposed to grab them and hold them at length while the others attempt to disarm him, as a shield weilder blocks his attack. If this makes the maceman issues some "force compliance", and if this fails to curb the attacker, he gets shot.

Heres a video (NSFW: gunshots, police shooting) of two swordsmen demonstrating the 21 foot rule against Chineese armed police:

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=4ed_1394220450

As you can see, they take multiple rounds to stop and just keep going.

The tactics employed by the Chineese now are actually similar to mounted police in Russia during the XVIII century, esp. Cossack police.

No shield wall? China, I am disappoint.

Of course, it does now mean that HEMA has a practical use in China, where it will probably never be practiced.

the triangular thing (which i actually just noticed is broken rn) was a stability thing i saw on a random cutaway that was to keep the bullet centre.

i was wondering that since as it stands rn, the cartridge dimensions are 6x43; could i get away with increasing the case length by 2-4 mm to get more powder in?

ive never seen such a thing but it appears to be an artefact of the earliest LSAT ammunitions

if the mouth is as wide as the cannelure it should keep the bullet centered regardless

Can I get a link to that paper please?

[Gallia-]

yeh dig

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... n_accuracy

[Puzikas]

I need to get a paper to post next everyone else is doing it its not fair

No shield wall? China, I am disappoint.

Of course, it does now mean that HEMA has a practical use in China, where it will probably never be practiced.

It's actually banned in China.

[Aqizithiuda]

yeh dig

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... n_accuracy

Thanks!

I need to get a paper to post next everyone else is doing it its not fair

No shield wall? China, I am disappoint.

Of course, it does now mean that HEMA has a practical use in China, where it will probably never be practiced.

It's actually banned in China.

That's hilarious. China, you never cease to amuse me.

[Puzikas]

Century eggs
You'll spend a century on the toilet!
Though I have to say their street food is top notch and its basically an adultplayground if you make more than $30k a year in a lot of places.

China's fun in a lot of ways but hilarious in others.
On one hand the night life in Quindao is 10/10
On the other the concept of a banana peel formation was totally unknown and Dow right foreign to the PLANM.
A formation that draws roots to counter their own tactics.

[The Kievan People]

China <3

If NATO troops had that much elan we'd probably have won in Afghanistan ;_;

Oh and someone mentioned Poison bullets. Ricin coating on bullets will survive firing, according to ancient US army research.

Century eggs
You'll spend a century on the toilet!
Though I have to say their street food is top notch and its basically an adultplayground if you make more than $30k a year in a lot of places.

China's fun in a lot of ways but hilarious in others.
On one hand the night life in Quindao is 10/10
On the other the concept of a banana peel formation was totally unknown and Dow right foreign to the PLANM.
A formation that draws roots to counter their own tactics.

>Eating Chinese street food.

I knew Russians were crazy but damn. You crazy.

[Puzikas]

>Ricin
Walter white gtfo
We are not using fucking Ricin again the OPFOR will not all be Hungarian Journalists.

>Eating Chinese street food.

I knew Russians were crazy but damn. You crazy.

In my defense my Chinese used to be decent enough and I was squatting and squinting
Maybe they thought I was legit?
I did most definitely eat cat though.
Wasn't the first time but it was the first time I'd had it BBQd. 6/10, sauce was saving grace. Cat is still too mealy and weird for me.

That said though through all my hilarious misadventures dating an Italian girl in Connecticut proved to be the single strangest cullenery venture ofy life.
Have you ever had Tripe?
I hadn't. Not like that at least. I had eaten Držková and Skembici, but those are floral with vegetable and spice notes. Apparently Italians will just hork down raw Tripe with some cheese and wine.
Pajata might be a dish worthy of a fucking metal album. Not that pussy nu-metal shit but 90s Norwegian black metal.
Its made of intestines of infant cows who have not been weaned off mothers milk-and the cow must be freshly slaughtered, and must be slaughtered less than four hours after feeding.
It was served with fresh picked tomato sauce. It all came off their farm. The prepeeation was all very normal for them. I just watched. They did let the "doctor man" cut the calf open. That was nice of them, I suppose.
It tastes amazing. Initially. After taste is spoiled milk and I burped up a sour milk taste all night, the next day I was sick and my vomit tasted like Paenibacillus the whole time. My bathroom smelled of a fresh petri dish. I think I inadvertently made a super big in my toilet our of the mostly benign bacteria.
How about capozella? That was a supprise. It sounded all fancy and nice. I was expecting chicken. I got a goats head with its eyes looking at me.
I ate the eye. It wasnt my first eye. It wasn't my last eye. It was my least favorite eye.
I then tried it's jaw open with my hands, snapped it off and chewed on it like a rib. The chin meat was sticky. I can still faintly taste the twangly flavor of a mouth full of goats blood and tomato sauce.
I ate the gums. I had never had gums before. They taste like shoelaces. They're crewy, wriggle like worms. Elastic. It's kind of like chewing a mouth full of rubber bands. The garlic aroma was overwhelming.
I ate the cheeks. Tender. Soft. Horrible tasting.
The tounge fought me the whole way. It bounced like a vulcanized bouncy ball, tore like tree bark and tasted like bad breath.
There was some esophagus left. I didn't eat that because I had just done respiratory surgery for the first time that day and really wasn't in the mood. I cut into it. Cuts exactly like how I'd imagine human esophagus would cut after being cooked: soft push, mild resistance, overly satisfying snap, stringy.
I literally ate it's face. Garlic and butter. Salty. Tasted like fermented garlic. Have you had the Lays Garlic bread chips? Tasted exactly like that.
Since you're in Tredeuland though take All dress chips and put garlic salt on them. That's what it tasted like.
I skinned the thing to the fucking bone. Cracked the skull. Ate the brain. Tasted delicious. Like a fine patte. I attempted to crew the brainstem-I was informed this was odd and that my delighted giggling was scaring the children.
Overall I rate it as the fifth worst food experience overall. It falls firmly behind nothing but Scandinavian things and that one sludge I had while I was in Tanzania.

Surströmming is on the list. It is number two. The smell is not the worst thing I have smelled, it's not in the top 10, but is in the top 20.

Main culinary nightmare of your nation part I (No Surströmming)
Nirvs gotta have some good ones.