Infantry Discussion Thread 9: Parabellum [NO KAIJU]

[The Kievan People]

Cost is not astronomical like some would think. And there is no need to "print" a propellant charge, unless the manufacturer decides that printing is a necessity.

I was talking about a hypothetical CTA or caseless projectile with a variable burning rate propellant charge. Not in general.

[EsToVnIa]

like the case itself needs to be bottlenecked?

the bullet serves to obturate the gas which is why it ends at the cannelure rather than the tip

The base of your cartridge is an entirely different material from the rest of the body and you're missing the upside down steel insert with a flash hole that the primer is inserted into. It's all there in the image.

ah okay thanks

[Spreewerke]

>tfw bottom-paged

[Imperializt Russia]

They included weight savings from using polymer links in those figures, just fyi.

Which is not a bad thing either, just further weight reduction efforts.

It makes it a somewhat dishonest weight comparison, as one could also use polymer links with regular 5.56 to save some pounds.

I've missed your insight.

No luck persuading the department to buy in some SGLs?

They had initially given me the go-ahead to use my SGL 31, actually. http://i.imgur.com/CGs59H6.jpg
-snip-

Shame. There's something incredibly badass about the thought of an American cop toting an SGL.

[Rhodesialund]

Cost is not astronomical like some would think. And there is no need to "print" a propellant charge, unless the manufacturer decides that printing is a necessity.

I was talking about a hypothetical CTA or caseless projectile with a variable burning rate propellant charge. Not in general.

That's still achievable with today's tech.

[Rhodesialund]

Which is not a bad thing either, just further weight reduction efforts.

It makes it a somewhat dishonest weight comparison, as one could also use polymer links with regular 5.56 to save some pounds.

Who currently makes polymer links for 5.56x45mm rounds? No one.

Not really dishonest if you think about it.

[Imperializt Russia]

It makes it a somewhat dishonest weight comparison, as one could also use polymer links with regular 5.56 to save some pounds.

Who currently makes polymer links for 5.56x45mm rounds? No one.

Not really dishonest if you think about it.

It kind of is, because otherwise they probably wouldn't be touting the figure.

Obviously, if LSAT falls through, the army can just start producing polymer links.
The figure exists to greaten the supposed advantage of LSAT's ammunition weight savings. It's marketing spiel.

[Spreewerke]

Which is not a bad thing either, just further weight reduction efforts.

It makes it a somewhat dishonest weight comparison, as one could also use polymer links with regular 5.56 to save some pounds.

They had initially given me the go-ahead to use my SGL 31, actually. http://i.imgur.com/CGs59H6.jpg
-snip-

Shame. There's something incredibly badass about the thought of an American cop toting an SGL.

After having used a rifle a bit, I've come to realize that any AK I'd end up using would need to be set up about like an AR, anyway. If I were to use an AK for LE work, though, it'd definitely be an AK-105 clone now. Really, the only issue that the AKs present me now are the sling swivel locations in regards to switching shoulders for left-handed firing or right-handed firing. I could either put a QD socket in the buttstock like I've seen done on other folks' AKs, or I could just leave the sling loose and go back to "throw over the back" instead of "cinch up against the chest" for getting my gun out of the way for when I need to use both hands for something and not have the rifle flop around. Only issue there is the radio cord would likely present issues with the "flip it around to the front" presentation you have to do with an AK from that position to represent it on-target. Installing that QD socket would probably be the best course of action, but it'd still make me feel dirty for doing that to an AK.

I'm sure if I messed around with it enough, I could probably get just as proficient with my AKs in a uniform as I am with my ARs right now. Biggest difference is that I've had formal training with the AR, I figure.

[Eisarn-Ara]

Cost is not astronomical like some would think. And there is no need to "print" a propellant charge, unless the manufacturer decides that printing is a necessity.

I was talking about a hypothetical CTA or caseless projectile with a variable burning rate propellant charge. Not in general.

Somebody on here ought to do a CTA Multi-flechette rifle, for "reasons".

[Rhodesialund]

Who currently makes polymer links for 5.56x45mm rounds? No one.

Not really dishonest if you think about it.

It kind of is, because otherwise they probably wouldn't be touting the figure.

Obviously, if LSAT falls through, the army can just start producing polymer links.
The figure exists to greaten the supposed advantage of LSAT's ammunition weight savings. It's marketing spiel.

So marketing something that's new and better than the old is dishonest?

[The Kievan People]

Yes.

Why did they omit the figures for 5.56mm with polymer links as this would have established a better baseline for evaluating the benefits of CTA or caseless ammunition?

Because it is less favourable. If they were being objective they would have stuck an extra column for 5.56x45mm with a polymer case and polymer links in there, even if these are not development objectives of the program, because it would have isolated the benefits of using those technologies in particular.

[EsToVnIa]

CTA is dumb

however like all dumb things, it is cool so therefore i will use it because "rule of cool"

[Imperializt Russia]

Kyiv's terminology is probably more fair.

It is probably not dishonest, but it is certainly not an objective comparison.

[Borenzo]

Just in case I can't think of anymore weapons I will need ideas (FOR ALLIES ONLY)

[Gallia-]

Kyiv's terminology is probably more fair.

It is probably not dishonest, but it is certainly not an objective comparison.

If they aren't presenting an objective comparison, it is dishonest.

Of course, the paper has a vested interest in making CTA seem as good as possible. The only possible reason you'd do this is because the technology is not as good as promised, or sufficiently inadequate that it is inferior compared to continuing use of conventional ammunition. The fact that CTA has never quite met the weight reductions the Army wanted even with the polymer links is really proof enough. They showed it to every branch of the DoD and the Canadians and they all rejected it.

Also I found a great comment:

"When it comes to replacing SA80, the Royal Marines have said that they would like a new medium calibre round. Given that this seems to be an unlikely future option, they would prefer the wholesale re-adoption of 7.62 mm rather than to retain 5.56 mm."

ARRSE is spreading its memes across the land. Bring back the SLR/M-14/G3.

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/01/c ... on-update/

[Imperializt Russia]

I do think it's really funny that ARRSE and the commercial airline pilot equivalent and the like have started becoming actual sources of opinion for journos now.

[Gallia-]

"Journos" are lazy and dumb.

In other news, the sky is blue.

The only real journalists are the PhDs writing opinion articles for something like FP now.

Everyone else gets their information from such vaunted sources as a couple random books by Tony Williams, rather than examining the primary source, public domain documents that actually explain why stuff like 6mm SAW, .280 British, .308, and CTA are dead ends, either technologically, doctrinally, or economically. They probably don't consider those real sources because the Army has some sort of cabal hidden interests in keeping 5.56mm around so more soldiers die because they're ~OUTGUNNED ON THE BATTLEFIELDS OF TOMORROW~, because I guess that means they can make more money from bombing brown people and stealing their oil?

The best option is to replace the fire/maneuver team with a 13-man squad.

Retain the 4-man fireteams. Add five men as a weapons team armed with a GPMG and Carl Gustav. Done. The demand to return the SLR will be silenced by M60 and 84mm rifle rounds.

[Rhodesialund]

Also I found a great comment:

"When it comes to replacing SA80, the Royal Marines have said that they would like a new medium calibre round. Given that this seems to be an unlikely future option, they would prefer the wholesale re-adoption of 7.62 mm rather than to retain 5.56 mm."

ARRSE is spreading its memes across the land. Bring back the SLR/M-14/G3.

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/01/c ... on-update/

*waddles away with soaked undies*

[The Akasha Colony]

When the bullet is actually embedded in the propellant the internal ballistic efficiency will suck. Maybe if you had some kind of magical propellant with very precise, variable, burn rates (in other words, if you could make it burn just so the projectile will escape the cartridge before the propellant around the projectile has burned) you could make an efficient CTA/Caseless projectile.

But that's some PMT magic.

Is the control tube concept developed by Ford Aerospace in the wake of GAU-7 insufficient for this task?

[The Kievan People]

Good question!

It hasn't been used on subsequent CTA rounds, so it probably has some issue.

[Borenzo]

OOC: is there any ideas for more weapons for my military? (Just in case I don't have any)

[Borenzo]

Just in case I can't think of anymore weapons I will need ideas (FOR ALLIES ONLY)

This is true

[Puzikas]

OOC: is there any ideas for more weapons for my military? (Just in case I don't have any)

We'd need a list of your current weapons.


This is an OOC thread as are most realism and discussion threads.

CTA is dumb

however like all dumb things, it is cool so therefore i will use it because "rule of cool"

It does allow for theoretically higher rates of fire and a higher vine of fire based on volume tho

"When it comes to replacing SA80, the Royal Marines have said that they would like a new medium calibre round. Given that this seems to be an unlikely future option, they would prefer the wholesale re-adoption of 7.62 mm rather than to retain 5.56 mm."

I have no words

But I have 4 pictures.






These accurately sum up my feelings

E2A: a 5th

After having used a rifle a bit, I've come to realize that any AK I'd end up using would need to be set up about like an AR, anyway. If I were to use an AK for LE work, though, it'd definitely be an AK-105 clone now. Really, the only issue that the AKs present me now are the sling swivel locations in regards to switching

Just use a one point sling for lowest possible drag coefficient

[Puzikas]

And now for something completely different.

We shift our eyes now to the Chineese Peoples Liberation Army Police (PLAP).

In the Xinjiang Uyghur autonomous region, the Chineese Gendarmerie patrol the streets with wolf tooths maces to deter an increase in sword attacks from the local Uyghur population.

Following the Kunming Train-Station Massacre in 2014 which lest 33 killed and 143 wounded, the Chineese have literally chosen to go medieval on their local terrorist populations asses by issuing troop melee weapons, including Wolf's tooth maces, sheilds, spears, two handed batons and people grabbers.

Http://i.imgur.com/LznUzjN.jpg
Http://i.imgur.com/cp3oXVx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Qa4Q9N9.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qHKWxs1.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/czTYZ7v.jpg

The idea is a patrol has different levels of escalation: passive, incapacitating, force compliance, and lethal force in the form of an officer armed with a long arm.
I do not know if everyone in the patrol carries a pistol, but what I know about the PLAP (besides that no, they are not actually called the PLAP, I just call them that for keks) not every officer carries a gun. Some officer carry traumatic pistols that shoot hardened plastic ammo similar to rubber shot, but actually more dangerous, and others carry revolvers in a caliber weaker than .38 Special (it's more in line with .32ACP I think?) that require less training than normal, but generally there are QRF type police units in most police precincts.

The officer with the person grabber is supposed to grab them and hold them at length while the others attempt to disarm him, as a shield weilder blocks his attack. If this makes the maceman issues some "force compliance", and if this fails to curb the attacker, he gets shot.

Heres a video (NSFW: gunshots, police shooting) of two swordsmen demonstrating the 21 foot rule against Chineese armed police:

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=4ed_1394220450

As you can see, they take multiple rounds to stop and just keep going.

The tactics employed by the Chineese now are actually similar to mounted police in Russia during the XVIII century, esp. Cossack police.

[Gallia-]

get ownt irl

best part the police vests still say "POLICE"

english will never die even if the white race/western civilization/ america does

god bless anglo psycho-cancer language

e: "they use the 9mm makarov fmj, whose stopping power (...) is negligible"