Infantry Discussion Thread 9: Parabellum [NO KAIJU]

[The Kievan People]

Exo-skeleton breaks. Soldier falls into mud and dies under weight of hundreds of pounds of armor.

Pass.

[Kassaran]

that's precisely why I'm going with the basic bare-bones exo with load-bearing capacity only for troop and suggested load of about sixty pounds. Make it as lightweight as possible, and plates are electro-magnetically secured so in the event of power loss or failure the plates fall off like a cheap prom dress.

[The Kievan People]

that's precisely why I'm going with the basic bare-bones exo with load-bearing capacity only for troop and suggested load of about sixty pounds. Make it as lightweight as possible, and plates are electro-magnetically secured so in the event of power loss or failure the plates fall off like a cheap prom dress.

^

Exo-skeletons are not passively stable on their feet. People forget this. If the computer keeping you on your feet fails or is destroyed when you are carrying hundreds of pounds of *stuff* you are going to have a bad time.

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Just give the soldier a normal rig of body armor. Putting plates on like a medieval knight that are resistant to full-power or HMG ammo is going to make it far, far heavier than is realistic. A lower-body exoskeleton that only increases the soldier's ability to carry more stuff for longer periods of time is going to benefit them far more than some badass Halo suit. I wrote it before somewhere; outmaneuvering your enemy, whether it be in a small-scale firefight or a Barbarossa-style operation, isn't as cool but a much better devotion of resources.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

Quite

[Gallia-]

Just give them PASGT.

Or a bottle of man-the-fuck-up pills.

[Crookfur]

that's precisely why I'm going with the basic bare-bones exo with load-bearing capacity only for troop and suggested load of about sixty pounds. Make it as lightweight as possible, and plates are electro-magnetically secured so in the event of power loss or failure the plates fall off like a cheap prom dress.

^

Exo-skeletons are not passively stable on their feet. People forget this. If the computer keeping you on your feet fails or is destroyed when you are carrying hundreds of pounds of *stuff* you are going to have a bad time.

Can computer get broken resulting in hysterical "The Wrong Trousers" antics or perhas more realistically tragic and horrific deaths as computer decides that your strides need to be faster, longer and in random directions leading to ripping and tearing of flesh and bone.

[Purpelia]

Can computer get broken resulting in hysterical "The Wrong Trousers" antics or perhas more realistically tragic and horrific deaths as computer decides that your strides need to be faster, longer and in random directions leading to ripping and tearing of flesh and bone.

Most likely the mechanism would be designed with mechanical safeguards against that sort of thing. Like for example a metal bump to prevent the legs from spreading too far. Kind of like what they do with tank suspension arms.

[The Kievan People]

It can if you believe in yourself.

Most likely it would just seize in some hideous position, tip over and crush your unfortunate limb(s) under its own weight. But that is kind of boring.

[Asgeirria]

Generally speaking, exoskeletons are automatically unrealistic unless in PMT or beyond. The best thing you can get is a Raytheon XOS 2 leg set and, of course, battery power would make it extremely limited in range.

Christ on a hockey stick, did you even read what I wrote or did you go full tunnelvision on "exoskeleton"?

[Aqizithiuda]

Generally speaking, exoskeletons are automatically unrealistic unless in PMT or beyond. The best thing you can get is a Raytheon XOS 2 leg set and, of course, battery power would make it extremely limited in range.

Christ on a hockey stick, did you even read what I wrote or did you go full tunnelvision on "exoskeleton"?

>Sufficient budget
>Two years of training, three-phase STANDARD
>Powered leg/back support STANDARD
>Light armor STANDARD:

That's the part Schwere was responding to.

[EsToVnIa]

get your rational thinking out of here

[Crookfur]

Legion - Three battalions commanded by a Praefect, advised by a Grand Optio. 576 AIFVs, 72 GNGPs, 48 Cargos, 48 Ambulances, 48 Leopard 2A7 MBTs, six CPs, three BCPs, and a Boxer LCP.
Battalion - Two companies commanded by a Colonel, staffed by a Diogene (or onslaught augar), Cornitian, and two subcommanders. IFV complement of 192 AIFVs, 48 GNGPs, 16 Cargos, 16 Ambulances, 16 Leopard 2A7 MBTs, two Boxer CPs, a Boxer OWCP.
Company - Eight platoons commanded by a Centurion (captain) assisted by an Optio (Staff Sergeant in auxiliary units, master sergeant or commissioned Warrant Officer equivalent in assault units), 96 AIFVs, 24 GNGPs, 8 Boxer Cargos, 8 Boxer Ambulances 8 Leopard 2A7 MBTs, supplemented by a Boxer CP.
Platoon - Four squads commanded by a Tesserarius (1st lieutenant), 12 AIFVs and 3 Boxer GNGPs supplemented by a Boxer Cargo, a Boxer Ambulance, and a Leopard 2A7 MBT.
Squad - Three teams led by a Decurio (2nd lieutenant), rallying to a signifer (or onslaught lead, in assault squads) with the three squad AIFVs supplemented by a Boxer GNGP.
Team - A five man team (three riflemen (MDR-c Bullpup SMG), a specialist [sniper (bullpup m14 to keep barrel length but increase indoor or close quarters effectiveness), commando (UTAS-15 shotgun or PS90 carbine), or demolitions(PS90 carbinem, MBT LAW, and/or c4 or other explosives)], and SAW trooper(Pecheng PKP) led by a Decanus (sergeant or corporal, PS90 carbine), with a Boxer AIFV.

How effective/ineffective would this be in forest/mountain/urban warfare?

Assuming:

>Sufficient budget
>Two years of training, three-phase STANDARD
>Powered leg/back support STANDARD
>Light armor STANDARD: The Stag armor system weighs 110 pounds, and the plates provide immunity to smalls arms fire lower than 7.62, and up to 12 7.62 strikes on each plate. It protects against shrapnel and grenades blasts at a distance of 8 feet, and lowers fatalities by 70% at 5 feet, and ~25% at <4 feet.
>Heavy armor (NCOs, specialists): The Boar armor system weighs 410 pounds, which provides full-body protection from 7.62 ammunition and smaller. Many of the main plates can withstand 3-4 direct hits from .50 rounds, while the internal padding, shock absorbers, and heat sinks can protect the wearer from grenade explosions within 2-3 feet. Fatalies from mortar strikes within 10 feet are reduced from 60% to less than 2%. Fatalities from artillery strikes of 200mm at less than 15 feet are reduced from 85% to ~5%. Fatalities from direct hits from 20-35mm shells are reduced from 99% to 30%.
>Proper air support
>The technology and resources necessary for above assumptions is available
>WWII Wermacht command system, allowing for unit command autonomy, e.g. 2nd lt. can decide how he wants to accomplish tasks given.
>High morale
>Reasonably high quality officers

So, assuming optimal domestic conditions. Stuff like effectiveness when cut off from supply lines, assymetrical (in both directions) warfare, etc is open season. Thoughts on actual combat effectiveness, what could be improved, etc?

leaving out the silly armour issues the general feel of what you have posted is bloated and unweildy with portions of video game style class specialisations and not actually taking care about what your choosing on the side.

Platoons don't need anything other than thier IFVs. Companies don't need extra vehciles other than an ambulance, a "cargo" APC, a couple of run about jeepalikes and maybe a 3 vehicle repair/fitter section (which i think is what you are trying to go for with the boxer GNGP, you really want the BDR).

A junior inf. officer does not need his own MBT. If you are going to include MBTs in an infantry regiment/brigade put them in thier own battalion or at least thier own companys at battalion level.

Numbers of sub units seem not too bad until suddenly the Company commander has 8 Fecking Lftn.s to look after (with no XO aparrently). Why on earth do you have 8 platoons in a company? I assume its some roman flavour thing.

Despite the aparent bloat the battalion is totally missing any form of support weapons capability. Where is the support company with its MGs, Mortars, ATGMs, snipers, recce and assault pioneer assets?

As to small arms the MDR-C is OK as long as you stick to the 16" barrel.
Bullpup M14s suck the biggest boabies in the world so why bother when stuff like the RFB exists? Alternatively any one of the precision ARalikes out here will happily do te same job without being that encumbering in CQB. No such thing as a squad level demo guy, you will have a rocket launcher for of the riflemen but thats about it.
Just make the "commando" a regular rifleman and issue a shotgun for one of them to carry slung and use when required.
Why does the machine gunner have a weapon totally incompatible with the logistics of the rest of the squad? For the PKP to make sense you have either rechambered them to 7.62mm NATO or rechambered your teams' precision rifles and the MGs on all your vehicles to 7.62x54mmR.
The PS90 is a silly comercial civilian toy, either use proper P90s or better yet MDR-Cs as it is hardly over encumbering.

[Crookfur]

Can computer get broken resulting in hysterical "The Wrong Trousers" antics or perhas more realistically tragic and horrific deaths as computer decides that your strides need to be faster, longer and in random directions leading to ripping and tearing of flesh and bone.

Most likely the mechanism would be designed with mechanical safeguards against that sort of thing. Like for example a metal bump to prevent the legs from spreading too far. Kind of like what they do with tank suspension arms.

But i want proper iron man 2 360 degree spine twists!

[Fordorsia]

Anyone got a decent cross section picture of a HVAP bullet? I need a frame of reference to do my 30mm.

[Purpelia]

Anyone got a decent cross section picture of a HVAP bullet? I need a frame of reference to do my 30mm.

Capped or uncapped?

[Fordorsia]

Anyone got a decent cross section picture of a HVAP bullet? I need a frame of reference to do my 30mm.

Capped or uncapped?

No idea. Whichever is more fitting for mid WWII I guess.

[Purpelia]

Capped or uncapped?

No idea. Whichever is more fitting for mid WWII I guess.

I am unsure but I think both were used in the same period.
Here is an example of a German Panzergranate 40 (Hk) (Pzgr. 40/42). The 1940's issue ammo for the KwK 42 used on the Panther.
>> Huge image <<

[Kassaran]

that's precisely why I'm going with the basic bare-bones exo with load-bearing capacity only for troop and suggested load of about sixty pounds. Make it as lightweight as possible, and plates are electro-magnetically secured so in the event of power loss or failure the plates fall off like a cheap prom dress.

^

Exo-skeletons are not passively stable on their feet. People forget this. If the computer keeping you on your feet fails or is destroyed when you are carrying hundreds of pounds of *stuff* you are going to have a bad time.

Was this you saying 'good call' or you saying 'you're still being stupid'?

[Fordorsia]

No idea. Whichever is more fitting for mid WWII I guess.

I am unsure but I think both were used in the same period.
Here is an example of a German Panzergranate 40 (Hk) (Pzgr. 40/42). The 1940's issue ammo for the KwK 42 used on the Panther.
>> Huge image <<

Any idea what all the parts and materials are? I'm not sure a 30mm bullet would be as complex as a tank shell.

[Purpelia]

I am unsure but I think both were used in the same period.
Here is an example of a German Panzergranate 40 (Hk) (Pzgr. 40/42). The 1940's issue ammo for the KwK 42 used on the Panther.
>> Huge image <<

Any idea what all the parts and materials are? I'm not sure a 30mm bullet would be as complex as a tank shell.

I can't be sure because the image does not really specify the version. But I would assume a core of wolfram but Germany did also produce steel cored rounds since wolfram was in short supply. Everyone did. But the rest would just be different densities of steel since steel comes is many flavors.

This is all my conjecture though.

[Fordorsia]

Actually would giving my 30mm round a HVAP bullet even improve its penetration all that much? It's a completely steel bullet with a copper ring, and that gets through 50mm at 100m.

Is it the penetrator being a smaller diameter that allows it to penetrate more?

[Crookfur]

Actually would giving my 30mm round a HVAP bullet even improve its penetration all that much? It's a completely steel bullet with a copper ring, and that gets through 50mm at 100m.

Is it the penetrator being a smaller diameter that allows it to penetrate more?

Sort of kinda. Also since the overall projectile is lighter you get Moar velocity. It's essentially APDS that doesn't discard the sabot.

[Fordorsia]

Actually would giving my 30mm round a HVAP bullet even improve its penetration all that much? It's a completely steel bullet with a copper ring, and that gets through 50mm at 100m.

Is it the penetrator being a smaller diameter that allows it to penetrate more?

Sort of kinda. Also since the overall projectile is lighter you get Moar velocity. It's essentially APDS that doesn't discard the sabot.

What if the bullet didn't have an outer shell, but it had the main body that kept it in place and the penetrator was sticking halfway out of the body? That way it hits the target first and isn't slowed by anything in front of it hitting first. When the body hits, it comes away from the penetrator as the penetrator goes into the target.

I don't know what I'm doing so I could have just described the exact thing that happens.

[Crookfur]

Sort of kinda. Also since the overall projectile is lighter you get Moar velocity. It's essentially APDS that doesn't discard the sabot.

What if the bullet didn't have an outer shell, but it had the main body that kept it in place and the penetrator was sticking halfway out of the body? That way it hits the target first and isn't slowed by anything in front of it hitting first. When the body hits, it comes away from the penetrator as the penetrator goes into the target.

I don't know what I'm doing so I could have just described the exact thing that happens.

Uncapped APCR/HVAP ammo did exist but it was found that a ballistic tip helped the penetrator dig in and made it much less likely to shatter. The ballistic cap also allowed a more aerodynamic projectile.