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Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation [NO FUN] Mark IX

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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Krasny-Volny
Minister
 
Posts: 2593
Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:21 am



Absorbed in tracking his target, Gunner Tom inadvertently swings the barrel of his KPTV towards the second turret and keeps firing, shredding it and Gunner Dick completely. :p
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Fordorsia
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Posts: 20347
Founded: Oct 04, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Fordorsia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:44 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:


Absorbed in tracking his target, Gunner Tom inadvertently swings the barrel of his KPTV towards the second turret and keeps firing, shredding it and Gunner Dick completely. :p


Gunner Dick was clearly a spy
Pro: Swords
Anti: Guns

San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.

Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad

Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.

Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.

Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.

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Allanea
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Posts: 23011
Founded: Antiquity
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Allanea » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:44 am

Has this actually ever happened? I suspect not.
#HyperEarthBestEarth

Sometimes, there really is money on the sidewalk.

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30671
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:49 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:


Absorbed in tracking his target, Gunner Tom inadvertently swings the barrel of his KPTV towards the second turret and keeps firing, shredding it and Gunner Dick completely. :p

That only happens with western capitalists like Tom and Dick. Real Soviet communists newer make such mistakes.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Allanea
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Founded: Antiquity
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Allanea » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:50 am

There are serious problems with dual-turret vehicles.

"Lololol gunners are dumb and will shoot each other" is not one of these serious problems.
#HyperEarthBestEarth

Sometimes, there really is money on the sidewalk.

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30671
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:52 am

Allanea wrote:There are serious problems with dual-turret vehicles.

"Lololol gunners are dumb and will shoot each other" is not one of these serious problems.

That's what I said. I just worded it as a snide remark as opposed to an intellectual comment in order to exploit the opportunity to poke fun at capitalists.
Last edited by Purpelia on Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Ardavia
Senator
 
Posts: 4731
Founded: Jun 05, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ardavia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:56 am

professional contrarian
for: whatever you are against
against: whatever you are for

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30671
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:56 am


I love it. It's positively cute.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Krasny-Volny
Minister
 
Posts: 2593
Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:05 am

Allanea wrote:There are serious problems with dual-turret vehicles.

"Lololol gunners are dumb and will shoot each other" is not one of these serious problems.


Gee that wasn't the way I meant to come across, sorry.

I was just using a humorous analogy to illustrate how the trajectory of the second turret would be negatively affected by the position of the first.
The statement below is true.
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Fordorsia
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Posts: 20347
Founded: Oct 04, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Fordorsia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:16 am

Purpelia wrote:

I love it. It's positively cute.


You mean sexy as fuck
Pro: Swords
Anti: Guns

San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.

Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad

Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.

Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.

Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.

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Freihafen
Envoy
 
Posts: 213
Founded: Nov 26, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Freihafen » Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:00 pm

Does anyone have knowledge of applications (or studies into thereof) of the hydragas suspension in heavy vehicles? The only application I have been able to find is the HEMTT A3 which weighs in at 13 tons. I'm actually considering utilising it in AFVs up to MBTs in the 60 ton weight range. Compared to the hydropneumatic suspension, hydragas is simpler (and thus cheaper to produce and easier to maintain) at the cost of somewhat poorer ride quality (but still superior to spring suspensions) and not being able to adjust ride height.
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The Kievan People
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11387
Founded: Jul 02, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby The Kievan People » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:03 pm

Freihafen wrote:Does anyone have knowledge of applications (or studies into thereof) of the hydragas suspension in heavy vehicles? The only application I have been able to find is the HEMTT A3 which weighs in at 13 tons. I'm actually considering utilising it in AFVs up to MBTs in the 60 ton weight range. Compared to the hydropneumatic suspension, hydragas is simpler (and thus cheaper to produce and easier to maintain) at the cost of somewhat poorer ride quality (but still superior to spring suspensions) and not being able to adjust ride height.


Hydragas is just a brand name for a kind of hydropneumatic suspension.
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Immoren
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62705
Founded: Mar 20, 2010
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Immoren » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:17 pm

Orussia wrote:

Engines, you shitter.
Do you use them?

Image
IC Flag Is a Pope Principia
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— Death. Probably.

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Fordorsia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20347
Founded: Oct 04, 2012
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Fordorsia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:18 pm

Pretty much
Pro: Swords
Anti: Guns

San-Silvacian wrote:Forgot to take off my Rhodie shorts when I went to sleep.
Woke up in bitches and enemy combatants.

Crookfur wrote:Speak for yourself, Crookfur infantry enjoy the sheer uber high speed low drag operator nature of their tactical woad

Spreewerke wrote:One of our employees ate a raw kidney and a raw liver and the only powers he gained was the ability to summon a massive hospital bill.

Premislyd wrote:This is probably the best thing somebody has ever spammed.

Puzikas wrote:That joke was so dark it has to smile to be seen at night.

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Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502
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Posts: 1052
Founded: Mar 31, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 3:57 pm

How come no AFVs outside of self-propelled artillery use low-velocity howitzers anymore? Like the short 75mm gun on the early Pz III and IV, Sherman's 75mm or 105mm, etc.

I'm guessing the answer is because those guns aren't as effective against other tanks, but if that's the case, why did those tanks have them in the first place? Would the PaK 40 be not as good against non-tank targets?
3dank5u
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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54791
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:03 pm

Guns that are arguably comparable to early LV howitzers are still in use - 90mm and 75/76mm LV guns are widely used by British and dominion forces, the Russians used 76mm and 100mm gun launchers, the US dabbled in the 152mm gun launcher programme for Sherridan and MBT-70.

I suppose the main reason LV howitzers are no longer used is partly because LV howitzers don't really exist anymore, certainly not in the gun calibres one would be likely to find in an AFV. When you were talking stuff like 30, 40 calibre 75mm guns, these were lightweight (relatively) LV guns with small ammunition (relatively). They were intended to be used at very close ranges, primarily against fortifications rather than tanks. Once tanks became recognised as a high-value target and tank battles became a thing, armour increased and the guns had to become much more HV to deal with this.
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Gallia-
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Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:03 pm

the "short 75mm" on M4 was a very capable anti tank gun

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Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502
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Founded: Mar 31, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:18 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:Guns that are arguably comparable to early LV howitzers are still in use - 90mm and 75/76mm LV guns are widely used by British and dominion forces, the Russians used 76mm and 100mm gun launchers, the US dabbled in the 152mm gun launcher programme for Sherridan and MBT-70.

I suppose the main reason LV howitzers are no longer used is partly because LV howitzers don't really exist anymore, certainly not in the gun calibres one would be likely to find in an AFV. When you were talking stuff like 30, 40 calibre 75mm guns, these were lightweight (relatively) LV guns with small ammunition (relatively). They were intended to be used at very close ranges, primarily against fortifications rather than tanks. Once tanks became recognised as a high-value target and tank battles became a thing, armour increased and the guns had to become much more HV to deal with this.

So it's mostly a case of prewar technology being still in use while doctrine is being rewritten?

Gallia- wrote:the "short 75mm" on M4 was a very capable anti tank gun

It was capable of killing the Pz IV at normal combat ranges, but from early on the people who designed it were experimenting on how to upgun the Sherman. In the articles I've read on the subject(most written by Nick Moran), the consensus seems to be in that there was not enough urgency to upgun the Sherman; only a few Tigers had been encountered in Africa, so while the 75mm struggled to kill it, that didn't really matter as Tigers were few and far between. The AGF knew about the Panther, but severely underestimated how many Panthers would be encountered, so the 76mm development did not have any urgency. Then D-Day happened, and lots of Panthers started appearing, and the 76mm Sherman began being fielded as quickly as possible.

Not that it matters, though - by D-Day, most of the panzer divisions were severely understrength and fuel supplies were so low that the replacements couldn't train despite having plenty of time. Not having had the 76mm gun on the Sherman probably wouldn't have changed much.
3dank5u
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Immoren
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 62705
Founded: Mar 20, 2010
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Immoren » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:27 pm

Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502 wrote:How come no AFVs outside of self-propelled artillery use low-velocity howitzers anymore? Like the short 75mm gun on the early Pz III and IV, Sherman's 75mm or 105mm, etc.

I'm guessing the answer is because those guns aren't as effective against other tanks, but if that's the case, why did those tanks have them in the first place? Would the PaK 40 be not as good against non-tank targets?


High velocity shells of yore would dig themselves deeper into ground before exploding, compared to high velocity shells of today. Or at least reason I remember reading that due to primitive fusing tech of early days led to the either or optimization.
Might be of.f
IC Flag Is a Pope Principia
I ᴛʜɪɴᴋ I'ᴠᴇ ᴊᴜsᴛ ʜᴀᴅ ᴀ ɴᴇᴀʀ Aʀᴀʀᴀɢɪ ᴇxᴘᴇʀɪᴇɴᴄᴇ.
— Death. Probably.

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Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502
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Founded: Mar 31, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502 » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:33 pm

Immoren wrote:
Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502 wrote:How come no AFVs outside of self-propelled artillery use low-velocity howitzers anymore? Like the short 75mm gun on the early Pz III and IV, Sherman's 75mm or 105mm, etc.

I'm guessing the answer is because those guns aren't as effective against other tanks, but if that's the case, why did those tanks have them in the first place? Would the PaK 40 be not as good against non-tank targets?


High velocity shells of yore would dig themselves deeper into ground before exploding, compared to high velocity shells of today. Or at least reason I remember reading that due to primitive fusing tech of early days led to the either or optimization.
Might be of.f

Did it also have anything to do with how the shell is built? Would the walls of a high velocity shell have to be thicker(and therefore with less HE filler) to withstand higher pressures and acceleration?
3dank5u
call me Shannon ^-^

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Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
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Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Corporate Police State

Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:36 pm

Depends on whether you want a "HE shell" or an APHE shell. APHE, by the virtue of being AP, had very little filler. It wouldn't penetrate otherwise.
HE shells typically had 7% filler by weight and later increased to 15% by weight. Arguments can be made that 7% filler is better in some circumstances, since it generates a much greater proportion of high-mass fragments that can penetrate armour, at the expense of less fragments overall and possibly less lethal radius.
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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20794
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:42 pm

Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502 wrote:It was capable of killing the Pz IV at normal combat ranges, but from early on the people who designed it were experimenting on how to upgun the Sherman. In the articles I've read on the subject(most written by Nick Moran), the consensus seems to be in that there was not enough urgency to upgun the Sherman; only a few Tigers had been encountered in Africa, so while the 75mm struggled to kill it, that didn't really matter as Tigers were few and far between. The AGF knew about the Panther, but severely underestimated how many Panthers would be encountered, so the 76mm development did not have any urgency. Then D-Day happened, and lots of Panthers started appearing, and the 76mm Sherman began being fielded as quickly as possible.

Not that it matters, though - by D-Day, most of the panzer divisions were severely understrength and fuel supplies were so low that the replacements couldn't train despite having plenty of time. Not having had the 76mm gun on the Sherman probably wouldn't have changed much.


panzer iv was literally almost every german tank

75mm was sufficient to deal with tiger i it was fine

shermans did 1.1:1 against panther in ardennes the last (first?) major armour offensive in the west anyway nbd

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Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30671
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:49 pm

Speaking of tank shells I finally figured out what I must have based my long 123mm back in the day when I drew it up years ago. The thing is basically the same length as a Soviet 125mm shell when combined fully (since it's two piece) and than rounded up. In light of this I have decided to put the three together in a lineup that's to scale for comparison. I need your opinions on it as presented.

Large image

PS. Since my tank is already designed around these shells I am unlikely to be changing their length. But i can refluff them to be a brand new 13cm gun if you guys feel that they are too big for a 12.3cm gun. I've had half a mind to do that anyway when this project started.

PPS. Yes, I know that the penetrator is a crappy photoshop of the american one stuck on a plain gray case with no bevel or anything. But like it's a reference image not a work of art. It's ok for it to look fugly.
Last edited by Purpelia on Wed Dec 09, 2015 5:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Anemos Major
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12664
Founded: Jun 01, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Anemos Major » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:08 pm

oh look, a new thread

E: Hopefully I'll have more lineart done soonish. Unfortunately my relevant folder was corrupted in a nasty computer foul-up and my last backup is several years old, so I've found myself working with a surprising paucity of material. The optimistic amongst you will take this as a chance for me to come up with refreshing new stuff, but, well...

Image
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by Anemos Major on Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Gallia-
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20794
Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:37 pm

are we posting tank-kuns?

Image

Image
Last edited by Gallia- on Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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