Infantry Discussion Thread, Mk. 8 Mod. 0 [No Kaiju]

[Aqizithiuda]

Laminated longbows began to become popular in England during the 1600s for target practice, as available bow wood was both expensive and poor in quality. Bows in excess of five feet had been made in a similar fashion for milenia before that among the Saami and other peoples of northern Europe. I believe those type of bows (typically reflexed and/or recurved) were even used by the Russians in their armies.

Noting the lack of good bow wood which I mentioned. My complaint was explicitly against trying to use good bow wood and than laminating it on top for a super mega +5 critical damage ultrabow effect. For a longbow you either use laminated or good bow wood, not both.

This being said I am not sure that a laminated construction would even work well with good bow wood. That thing is already flexible and tough enough and laminated construction is aimed at compensating for wood that isn't by increasing one or the other characteristic. So he might end up wrecking the balance and getting a worse bow rather than a better one.

A laminated bow made from good bow woods will typically shoot faster than one made from a single piece of good wood for a given draw weight, as the characteristics can be control better for optimal cast.

[EsToVnIa]

The AGv 62 (1962 Әвирмaтыкa Гзвp tr.1962 Ӓvïrmatyka Gévr; lit "Automatic Service Rifle of 1962") is an Estovnian service rifle developed during the 1950s and produced by Otokar-Suomi chambered for the Estovnian 7.62x45mm cartridge. It is partially based on the Anikatia H48 and H53 rifles, although features some influences from the AGv m/38 battle rifle, namely the incorporation of a tilting breechblock in its operating mechanism. Because of its design, the AGv 62 is easy to manufacture and modify. A carbine, light machine gun, and designated marksman rifle versions of the rifle exists, designated as the AGv 62T (Tällja - folding), JsTGv 65 (Jälïnfantera Stúdynysk Gévr - infantry support rifle), and MsJdGv 67 (Méstätajïgarðyskagévr - hunting rifle).

The rifle is fed from either a 20, 45, or 60 round detachable box magazine and produces a muzzle velocity of 700 meters per second. It fires at 690 rounds per minute, however both the AGv 62M and KGv 62 increase the fire rate to 720 rpm. At the time of its adoption, the AGv 62 was designed around the concepts of combined arms and infantry mobility, which came about as a result of the North Taverian War. Its adoption by the Estovnian Armed Forces dramatically improved the firepower of Estovnian infantry units.

Visually it served as an inspiration for the Hornatyian AÚP vz. 77, although both rifles have different internal designs and are not interchangeable.

[Minnysota]

nice guns

[Eahland]

I've tried various actual weapons against pieces of my butted mail. It works fine against slashing or hacking cuts or blunt trauma, though the wear and tear is greater than against riveted. (This is seldom complete ring failure. Usually the gap in the ring just opens a little bit, and eventually the rings work around until the gaps line up and they separate.) But even target arrows from a shitty 25# fiberglass reflex longbow will go right through it. And I think they got lost in a move, but at one point I had some mangled rings that were the result of trying a spear against it. It didn't actually cut any of the rings, but it pretty deeply scored several and burst them open such that the weave just came apart and the spear penetrated deeply.

Riveted isn't immune to this, either, but it takes a lot more to burst riveted rings open. On the flip side, when they do pop the rivet, they're a bigger pain to fix, too.

[Fordorsia]

I've tried various actual weapons against pieces of my butted mail. It works fine against slashing or hacking cuts or blunt trauma, though the wear and tear is greater than against riveted. (This is seldom complete ring failure. Usually the gap in the ring just opens a little bit, and eventually the rings work around until the gaps line up and they separate.) But even target arrows from a shitty 25# fiberglass reflex longbow will go right through it. And I think they got lost in a move, but at one point I had some mangled rings that were the result of trying a spear against it. It didn't actually cut any of the rings, but it pretty deeply scored several and burst them open such that the weave just came apart and the spear penetrated deeply.

Riveted isn't immune to this, either, but it takes a lot more to burst riveted rings open. On the flip side, when they do pop the rivet, they're a bigger pain to fix, too.

By works fine against blunt trauma, I hope you mean the mail itself holds up fine. Cause you know, mail does nothing to protect the wearer from blunt weapons.

[Purpelia]

I've tried various actual weapons against pieces of my butted mail. It works fine against slashing or hacking cuts or blunt trauma, though the wear and tear is greater than against riveted. (This is seldom complete ring failure. Usually the gap in the ring just opens a little bit, and eventually the rings work around until the gaps line up and they separate.) But even target arrows from a shitty 25# fiberglass reflex longbow will go right through it. And I think they got lost in a move, but at one point I had some mangled rings that were the result of trying a spear against it. It didn't actually cut any of the rings, but it pretty deeply scored several and burst them open such that the weave just came apart and the spear penetrated deeply.

Riveted isn't immune to this, either, but it takes a lot more to burst riveted rings open. On the flip side, when they do pop the rivet, they're a bigger pain to fix, too.

By works fine against blunt trauma, I hope you mean the mail itself holds up fine. Cause you know, mail does nothing to protect the wearer from blunt weapons.

Well I would not say nothing. It's not going to be fantastic protection by any measure but having a tightly woven material that compresses when you smash it is going to at the very least mitigate some of the impact force by spreading it out. At the very least it will provide enough protection that when you smash a sword or axe against it the impact won't break your bones like it might have if you had been hit by the weapon otherwise and it for some bizarre reason failed to cut.

[Eahland]

By works fine against blunt trauma, I hope you mean the mail itself holds up fine. Cause you know, mail does nothing to protect the wearer from blunt weapons.

This is not true, as I have explained to you before.

[Gawdzendia]

Oi which one of you muppets was let onto wikipedia

[Crookfur]

I've tried various actual weapons against pieces of my butted mail. It works fine against slashing or hacking cuts or blunt trauma, though the wear and tear is greater than against riveted. (This is seldom complete ring failure. Usually the gap in the ring just opens a little bit, and eventually the rings work around until the gaps line up and they separate.) But even target arrows from a shitty 25# fiberglass reflex longbow will go right through it. And I think they got lost in a move, but at one point I had some mangled rings that were the result of trying a spear against it. It didn't actually cut any of the rings, but it pretty deeply scored several and burst them open such that the weave just came apart and the spear penetrated deeply.

Riveted isn't immune to this, either, but it takes a lot more to burst riveted rings open. On the flip side, when they do pop the rivet, they're a bigger pain to fix, too.

Just out of interest what sized rings did you use?

I have totally not been experimenting with various sized spring coil washers at work. So far the furthest i got was with 4mm rings (as they were the only ones the small pliers i had on hand would cope with, with decent pliers i could probabaly work 6 or 8mm ones) but it all went to pot when i started to add a second line and got totally muddled because i'm an idiot and forgot everything in Lindyebeige's how to video.


If i can get the technique right i do fancy trying my own coif or shirt as a fun long term project, if only to (hopefully) impress my son in a few years time.

[Fordorsia]

(Image)

Oi which one of you muppets was let onto wikipedia

The only wikipedia article that's even remotely accurate

By works fine against blunt trauma, I hope you mean the mail itself holds up fine. Cause you know, mail does nothing to protect the wearer from blunt weapons.

This is not true, as I have explained to you before.

While I understand that the mail has mass that the weapon must move, the problem is that your experience is with fighting with weapons that can't really hurt you, wielded by people not trying to kill you. And even with the whole thing with the weapon having to move the mail and fight the mail tightening on the other side of the body, something like a war hammer or a mace simply wouldn't care, especially if there are spikes or flanged involved. You can't really make a mail shirt tight enough so that it can slow down a war hammer or mace without heavily impeding your movement, and possibly your ability to breath.

[Kazarogkai]

Why are you using one squad to assault a camp

3 BARs probably implies 3 squads in the era.

Didn't american squads usually have about 3 BAR's though...

[Purpelia]

While I understand that the mail has mass that the weapon must move, the problem is that your experience is with fighting with weapons that can't really hurt you, wielded by people not trying to kill you. And even with the whole thing with the weapon having to move the mail and fight the mail tightening on the other side of the body, something like a war hammer or a mace simply wouldn't care, especially if there are spikes or flanged involved. You can't really make a mail shirt tight enough so that it can slow down a war hammer or mace without heavily impeding your movement, and possibly your ability to breath.

1. Why are you comparing a piece of armor against equipment that only came into use in a time when said armor was largely relegated to support duties as opposed to primary protection?

2. Heavy padding.

3. It's still going to mean the difference between broken ribs and an imploded ribcage and such.

[Eahland]

Just out of interest what sized rings did you use?

I have totally not been experimenting with various sized spring coil washers at work. So far the furthest i got was with 4mm rings (as they were the only ones the small pliers i had on hand would cope with, with decent pliers i could probabaly work 6 or 8mm ones) but it all went to pot when i started to add a second line and got totally muddled because i'm an idiot and forgot everything in Lindyebeige's how to video.

If i can get the technique right i do fancy trying my own coif or shirt as a fun long term project, if only to (hopefully) impress my son in a few years time.

I use 16 gauge mild steel wire, wound on a 1/4" steel rod, which gives rings a hair smaller than 1/4" ID. The weave ends up a little denser than typical Western mail, but Western mail would have been riveted, and probably flat-linked rather than drawn wire. I've seen period, or just-out-of-period, Indian mail that had rings indistinguishable from mine.

I started making my hauberk because I got really, really bored one summer semester at college in the middle of nowhere. We didn't even have a McDonald's. But we had a hardware store...

[Crookfur]

So now you have a bow that was common throughout northern Europe through antiquity and all of Europe in the Middle Ages, a bow that originated in Asia and that spread to north Africa and the Middle East before it was used in southern Europe in antiquity, and a late style of crossbow that was developed in the 12th century (no such thing as a composite arbalest too)

Like I said, you're taking all these things from different cultures and time periods and throwing them all together. We still don't know what time period you're supposed to be going for.

This might sound funny, but i think it's 14th-16th century, in Elder Scrolls Universe. Might add primitive to matchlock gun and cannons.

Heavy inf. as you seem to want to want would, in the late 14th to early 16th centurie,s largely result in your armies getting bent over and ravaged in the almayn manner.

[Sevvania]

Does anyone have any info on this?

I think it's called the AO-T2, it's American, and was supposed to be a potential Thompson SMG replacement, but I can't seem to find much beyond that.

[Crookfur]

Just out of interest what sized rings did you use?

I have totally not been experimenting with various sized spring coil washers at work. So far the furthest i got was with 4mm rings (as they were the only ones the small pliers i had on hand would cope with, with decent pliers i could probabaly work 6 or 8mm ones) but it all went to pot when i started to add a second line and got totally muddled because i'm an idiot and forgot everything in Lindyebeige's how to video.

If i can get the technique right i do fancy trying my own coif or shirt as a fun long term project, if only to (hopefully) impress my son in a few years time.

I use 16 gauge mild steel wire, wound on a 1/4" steel rod, which gives rings a hair smaller than 1/4" ID. The weave ends up a little denser than typical Western mail, but Western mail would have been riveted, and probably flat-linked rather than drawn wire. I've seen period, or just-out-of-period, Indian mail that had rings indistinguishable from mine.

I started making my hauberk because I got really, really bored one summer semester at college in the middle of nowhere. We didn't even have a McDonald's. But we had a hardware store...

So that would be pretty close M6 washers.

Cool.

This is probabaly what i woudl experiemnt with by borrowing a few from work before shelling out for a box or two:

https://www.trfastenings.com/Products/C ... TR00021386

I know its hardly authentic but its materials i know.

What is cool is that i can also get these in bronze which would be cool for decorative bits.

[Purpelia]

We all know that doctrine, production costs and all sorts of other things prevented the american army from using the BAR as a replacement for every rifle. And I am inclined to say they were right. But if you will let us delve into the hypothetical. How would an army whose squads are armed exclusively with BAR's perform in WW2? As in just take your average american army and every time you read "rifle" replace with BAR.

[Gallia-]

Does anyone have any info on this?
(Image)
I think it's called the AO-T2, it's American, and was supposed to be a potential Thompson SMG replacement, but I can't seem to find much beyond that.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display. ... icles=2189

[Schwere Panzer Abteilung 502]

Good luck to anyone making chainmail. I made a square of butted mail a few years back and hated doing it before I quit and shot the damn thing with a bow.

FWIW, most Western chainmail has been 4 flat rings in 1 riveted ring. The flat rings were punched out of a sheet of steel; being punched meant they didn't have a weak point that can fail like in riveted, butted, or welded. But you still need a way to connect them, so you use the one riveted ring to join them.

[Crookfur]

Does anyone have any info on this?
(Image)
I think it's called the AO-T2, it's American, and was supposed to be a potential Thompson SMG replacement, but I can't seem to find much beyond that.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display. ... icles=2189

The mag does kind of ruin the look. This would look very nice with a mag through the pistol grip, sort of like a really classy uzi...

[The balkens]

Does anyone have any info on this?
(Image)
I think it's called the AO-T2, it's American, and was supposed to be a potential Thompson SMG replacement, but I can't seem to find much beyond that.

Kentucky bourbon fuckery.

[Sevvania]

We all know that doctrine, production costs and all sorts of other things prevented the american army from using the BAR as a replacement for every rifle. And I am inclined to say they were right. But if you will let us delve into the hypothetical. How would an army whose squads are armed exclusively with BAR's perform in WW2? As in just take your average american army and every time you read "rifle" replace with BAR.

I'm of the mindset that a lightened BAR like the Colt Monitor could have functioned as a service rifle well into Vietnam and negated the need for a "transitional" post-war service rifle like the M14.

@Gallia: Aha, thanks.
@Crookfur: The mag definitely changes the aesthetic. The lack of magazine in the first image was one of the things that was confusing me. "Is it fed from the right side? Does it have an internal magazine?" Mag through the grip sounds like it'd be pretty sweet, though.

[Crookfur]

Good luck to anyone making chainmail. I made a square of butted mail a few years back and hated doing it before I quit and shot the damn thing with a bow.

FWIW, most Western chainmail has been 4 flat rings in 1 riveted ring. The flat rings were punched out of a sheet of steel; being punched meant they didn't have a weak point that can fail like in riveted, butted, or welded. But you still need a way to connect them, so you use the one riveted ring to join them.

so 4 flat washers with a coild washer to link them...

Oh i have no illusions as to how tough, boring and fustrating making mail would be, esspecially to make a shirt to fit my lard ass body...

[Gawdzendia]

Does anyone have any info on this?
(Image)
I think it's called the AO-T2, it's American, and was supposed to be a potential Thompson SMG replacement, but I can't seem to find much beyond that.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display. ... icles=2189

I found the XM8's grandpappy.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display. ... icles=2189

The mag does kind of ruin the look. This would look very nice with a mag through the pistol grip, sort of like a really classy uzi...

Feed it like a P90.
Shittily

Better yet, apply Kraut Space Magic to this wooden pseudo-thompson.

[Eahland]

This is not true, as I have explained to you before.

While I understand that the mail has mass that the weapon must move, the problem is that your experience is with fighting with weapons that can't really hurt you, wielded by people not trying to kill you.

SCA weapons are not foam boffer weapons. They're rattan clubs, and we're not playing touch-kill. Our weapons can and do break bones. They don't kill people, and don't break bones all that often, because we have armor regulations that require adequate armor over critical areas, not because we're not hitting hard enough to kill an unarmored person. (Though calibration levels are regionally pretty variable. Here in the East, we hit harder than anyone else except our neighbors in Atlantia.)

And even with the whole thing with the weapon having to move the mail and fight the mail tightening on the other side of the body, something like a war hammer or a mace simply wouldn't care, especially if there are spikes or flanged involved. You can't really make a mail shirt tight enough so that it can slow down a war hammer or mace without heavily impeding your movement, and possibly your ability to breath.

The problem is that you're completely failing to understand the physics involved. It has nothing to do with the mail tightening. It works better if the mail is loose and able to move, and still better if the mail is already moving in the opposite direction. It's basically the mail actively countering the incoming blow.

Say you've got a warhammer with a 1 kg head on it. You swing it at your target at 100 m/s (realistically, that's too fast, but the exact numbers don't matter for the purposes of demonstrating the physics). This delivers to your target (K=1/2 mv²) 5 kJ of kinetic energy.

Now say your target is wearing mail. The section of mail the warhammer has to move to drive into the target's body also masses 1 kg. Conservation of momentum says that the combined hammer/mail system now masses 2 kg and is moving at 50 m/s. Same momentum, but K=1/2 mv² says this is only delivering 2.5 kJ - half the kinetic energy of the blow against the unarmored target.

Now say your target is moving and fighting and the entire side of his mail - 5 kg - is pulling out away from his body at 10 m/s. Your hammer hits this, and after all the momentum is conserved, you've got a 6 kg system moving towards him at 8.3 m/s. This delivers a mere 0.2 kJ - 1/24 the energy - to him.

While this isn't as nice as a solid plate that also reduces impact energy with its mass as well as spreading the impact and refusing to deform under impact, it does have a real and very significant effect.

Weapons like maces and hammers, with the mass concentrated in the striking head, do work better against mail than swords, and the mail is rarely going to completely absorb the blow. But it can easily make the difference between broken bones and bruises.