Infantry Discussion Thread, Mk. 8 Mod. 0 [No Kaiju]

[Fordorsia]

And you're introducing irrelevant facts about something that's even less like the thing because...?

If your point was that doing this gives you kit that's heavier than almost anything anyone ever actually used as field kit, and it can therefore be assumed to be a bad idea, that's true enough, and is in fact supported by your statement, but you seem to be arguing the opposite.


Helm, steel greaves and vambraces, gambeson and other padding... it adds up. I'm not even counting my shield and weapons.

SCA armor does tend to run a little heavier than period armor, for various reasons, but that's not really the problem here. The problem is that we're basically talking about wearing two sets of body armor at once. Turns out that's heavy. Throwing in a big shield and like two and a half sets of weaponry doesn't help, either.


And your basis for this opinion is...?

I'm assuming that the original poster isn't literally taking the loricae off the backs of dead Romans and throwing them on guys wearing hauberks, but rather making armor in that style with the intention that they will be worn over mail and sizing and fitting them accordingly. (This may, admittedly, be a bad assumption.) Assuming that's true, there's no particular reason it needs to be notably less flexible than lorica segmentata alone. But there's no way to avoid that it's going to be heavy.

What i want is a flexible heavy infantry that performs better than Roman Legion. Flexible as in capable of using spear and either sword,axe or mace (depends on preference) and also able to throw darts before charging and heavily armoured . And not reliance on stabbing attack in formation. More like slash and stab with something longer. OTOH,that's precisely the kind of armor i envision.

You're not going to have a better army than the Romans when your soldiers can use whatever weapons they want

[Purpelia]

What i want is a flexible heavy infantry that performs better than Roman Legion. Flexible as in capable of using spear and either sword,axe or mace (depends on preference) and also able to throw darts before charging and heavily armoured . And not reliance on stabbing attack in formation. More like slash and stab with something longer. OTOH,that's precisely the kind of armor i envision.

The Romans did have all that. They had archers, slingers and other skirmishers. They had cavalry and siege weapons and spearmen and everything else you can imagine. They called these troops auxiliaries. Sound familiar?

[Theodosiya]

What i want is a flexible heavy infantry that performs better than Roman Legion. Flexible as in capable of using spear and either sword,axe or mace (depends on preference) and also able to throw darts before charging and heavily armoured . And not reliance on stabbing attack in formation. More like slash and stab with something longer. OTOH,that's precisely the kind of armor i envision.

You're not going to have a better army than the Romans when your soldiers can use whatever weapons they want

Standard issues applies for almost everything save some minor stuff and preference for personal weapon. For example, a heavy infantry got spear,shield, darts, and a personal weapon of choice from 3 available type (sword, axe, mace). Archers, OTOH,got a strapped round shield sized between buckler and pelte, steel arrows, Longbow made of yew or even composite if possible, and personal weapon of choice.

[Purpelia]

I don't think a composite longbow is a good idea. It has been done historically but only in places like Japan where they made it by laminating bamboo. It's newer been done with proper bow wood laminated by something else. And there is a good reason for this. The idea of both large bows and composite bows is that both are ways of getting as much draw weight as possible and thus as much energy as possible from the bow. By the middle ages something like a proper large war bow made of yew or a proper composite bow already have high enough draw weights that they are pushing what a human archer can reasonably pull. If you try and combine the two to get some sort of super mega uberbow all you'll get is something that needs two men and possibly a mechanism between them to draw.

[Theodosiya]

I don't think a composite longbow is a good idea. It has been done historically but only in places like Japan where they made it by laminating bamboo. It's newer been done with proper bow wood laminated by something else. And there is a good reason for this. The idea of both large bows and composite bows is that both are ways of getting as much draw weight as possible and thus as much energy as possible from the bow. By the middle ages something like a proper large war bow made of yew or a proper composite bow already have high enough draw weights that they are pushing what a human archer can reasonably pull. If you try and combine the two to get some sort of super mega uberbow all you'll get is something that needs two men and possibly a mechanism between them to draw.

Fine.Longbow for foot archers. Composite bow for horse archers and composite arbalest for arbalestiere.

[Fordorsia]

So now you have a bow that was common throughout northern Europe through antiquity and all of Europe in the Middle Ages, a bow that originated in Asia and that spread to north Africa and the Middle East before it was used in southern Europe in antiquity, and a late style of crossbow that was developed in the 12th century (no such thing as a composite arbalest too)

Like I said, you're taking all these things from different cultures and time periods and throwing them all together. We still don't know what time period you're supposed to be going for.

[Theodosiya]

So now you have a bow that was common throughout northern Europe through antiquity and all of Europe in the Middle Ages, a bow that originated in Asia and that spread to north Africa and the Middle East before it was used in southern Europe in antiquity, and a late style of crossbow that was developed in the 12th century (no such thing as a composite arbalest too)

Like I said, you're taking all these things from different cultures and time periods and throwing them all together. We still don't know what time period you're supposed to be going for.

This might sound funny, but i think it's 14th-16th century, in Elder Scrolls Universe. Might add primitive to matchlock gun and cannons.

[EsToVnIa]

It just occured to me there can be no election if there are no nominations.

THIS IS MY NOMINATION. THERE ARE MANY LIKE IT BUT THIS ONE IS MINE: Transnapastainasiopasnositain

[EsToVnIa]

So now you have a bow that was common throughout northern Europe through antiquity and all of Europe in the Middle Ages, a bow that originated in Asia and that spread to north Africa and the Middle East before it was used in southern Europe in antiquity, and a late style of crossbow that was developed in the 12th century (no such thing as a composite arbalest too)

Like I said, you're taking all these things from different cultures and time periods and throwing them all together. We still don't know what time period you're supposed to be going for.

This might sound funny, but i think it's 14th-16th century, in Elder Scrolls Universe. Might add primitive to matchlock gun and cannons.

No it's p concretely that it's pre-gunpowder age

why even bother with guns when you have magika anyways and can shoot fireballs from your hands

[Fordorsia]

THIS IS MY NOMINATION. THERE ARE MANY LIKE IT BUT THIS ONE IS MINE: Beno

[Allanea]

What was the effective range of a dueling pistol in the late 19th century? Specifically, to what range could they be effectively shot in shooting-range conditions.

[Aqizithiuda]

The Alkrieg tribes were always known for their strength in combat, as well as their amazing pain tolerance, and thus have been made into an auxiliary force on more than one occasion. The quality of their gear has changed over time, with massive improvements to the quality of mail. Today, the Alkrieg Auxiliary forces of Havale remain an important supplementary force to the Havalion Legions. While they lack decent protection on their exposed arms and legs, their body is well covered against slashes and piercing attacks, and they make great use of their Zweihanders to damage armor, and break through pike formations. Both the Emperor, and his brothers used Alkrieg soldiers to buff up their armies during the Hveryn Schism, saving their main forces much time to regroup, re arm and go back into the battle refreshed.

The only way you can have massive improvements in mail is if it was wade of wooden rings or something and then change it to steel. If you have iron mail, you still have adequate mail that any iron age civilization could make. And mail barely protects against piercing attacks, so unless you have scale or plate armour, these soldiers not well protected against thrusts.

What time period is this? Why are you using mail when you're using zweihanders, which were present in the 14th to 16th centuries? At that time plate armour was fairly easy to get for soldiers who could afford zweihanders, and chainmail was fairly obsolete for all but the main body of infantry thanks to gunpowder weapons and a better manufacturing industry that made plate armour easier to make and get.

You don't damage armour with zweihanders, please don't think you smash and cut armoured people to bits with them. And nor do they break through pike lines.

Mail increased six times in hardness between 100 BC and 1500 AD, as well as changing rivet styles from round to wedge, which is more effective. It was still used by Scottish Highlanders as late as 1513 as the primary form of armour for those rich enough to afford it. Those who couldn't afford mail wore quilted textile armour impregnated with pitch.

What i want is a flexible heavy infantry that performs better than Roman Legion. Flexible as in capable of using spear and either sword,axe or mace (depends on preference) and also able to throw darts before charging and heavily armoured . And not reliance on stabbing attack in formation. More like slash and stab with something longer. OTOH,that's precisely the kind of armor i envision.

The Roman army pretty much had the most flexible infantry out there short of the medieval knight, who could fight on horseback or on foot. They also didn't rely solely on stabbing, either. There are plenty of descriptions of the horror of their enemies when they saw all the severed limbs and heads on a battlefield after the Romans had won.

I don't think a composite longbow is a good idea. It has been done historically but only in places like Japan where they made it by laminating bamboo. It's newer been done with proper bow wood laminated by something else. And there is a good reason for this. The idea of both large bows and composite bows is that both are ways of getting as much draw weight as possible and thus as much energy as possible from the bow. By the middle ages something like a proper large war bow made of yew or a proper composite bow already have high enough draw weights that they are pushing what a human archer can reasonably pull. If you try and combine the two to get some sort of super mega uberbow all you'll get is something that needs two men and possibly a mechanism between them to draw.

Laminated longbows began to become popular in England during the 1600s for target practice, as available bow wood was both expensive and poor in quality. Bows in excess of five feet had been made in a similar fashion for milenia before that among the Saami and other peoples of northern Europe. I believe those type of bows (typically reflexed and/or recurved) were even used by the Russians in their armies.

What was the effective range of a dueling pistol in the late 19th century? Specifically, to what range could they be effectively shot in shooting-range conditions.

A really good one, with a ball that tightly fitted into the barrel, was probably not all that much less accurate at a shooting range than a modern pistol of similar caliber would be.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

>impregnated with pitch

eww

[Khornatenreich]

Gonna have to roll with the token russian here.


THIS IS MY NOMINATION. THERE ARE MANY LIKE IT BUT THIS ONE IS MINE: Puzikas

[Husseinarti]

And you're introducing irrelevant facts about something that's even less like the thing because...?

If your point was that doing this gives you kit that's heavier than almost anything anyone ever actually used as field kit, and it can therefore be assumed to be a bad idea, that's true enough, and is in fact supported by your statement, but you seem to be arguing the opposite.


Helm, steel greaves and vambraces, gambeson and other padding... it adds up. I'm not even counting my shield and weapons.

SCA armor does tend to run a little heavier than period armor, for various reasons, but that's not really the problem here. The problem is that we're basically talking about wearing two sets of body armor at once. Turns out that's heavy. Throwing in a big shield and like two and a half sets of weaponry doesn't help, either.


And your basis for this opinion is...?

I'm assuming that the original poster isn't literally taking the loricae off the backs of dead Romans and throwing them on guys wearing hauberks, but rather making armor in that style with the intention that they will be worn over mail and sizing and fitting them accordingly. (This may, admittedly, be a bad assumption.) Assuming that's true, there's no particular reason it needs to be notably less flexible than lorica segmentata alone. But there's no way to avoid that it's going to be heavy.

What i want is a flexible heavy infantry that performs better than Roman Legion. Flexible as in capable of using spear and either sword,axe or mace (depends on preference) and also able to throw darts before charging and heavily armoured . And not reliance on stabbing attack in formation. More like slash and stab with something longer. OTOH,that's precisely the kind of armor i envision.

Nig you want horse mounted Knights from like 1000AD.

[Fordorsia]

Those who couldn't afford mail wore quilted textile armour impregnated with pitch.

Why pitch?

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I79B0WG-T5k



mfw

[Aqizithiuda]

Those who couldn't afford mail wore quilted textile armour impregnated with pitch.

Why pitch?

Because that became hard when it set. Dock workers used to do the same to their hats in order to make a primitive hard hat. Presumably the addition of tar to textile armour made it more durable, waterproof and possibly more protective.

[Novorden]

I don't like railguns anymore.

[Fordorsia]

Why pitch?

Because that became hard when it set. Dock workers used to do the same to their hats in order to make a primitive hard hat. Presumably the addition of tar to textile armour made it more durable, waterproof and possibly more protective.

Just using flaming arrows against those dirty scots :>

[Purpelia]

Laminated longbows began to become popular in England during the 1600s for target practice, as available bow wood was both expensive and poor in quality. Bows in excess of five feet had been made in a similar fashion for milenia before that among the Saami and other peoples of northern Europe. I believe those type of bows (typically reflexed and/or recurved) were even used by the Russians in their armies.

Noting the lack of good bow wood which I mentioned. My complaint was explicitly against trying to use good bow wood and than laminating it on top for a super mega +5 critical damage ultrabow effect. For a longbow you either use laminated or good bow wood, not both.

This being said I am not sure that a laminated construction would even work well with good bow wood. That thing is already flexible and tough enough and laminated construction is aimed at compensating for wood that isn't by increasing one or the other characteristic. So he might end up wrecking the balance and getting a worse bow rather than a better one.

[Ardavia]

Is there any significant difference between riveted and butted mail?

[Fordorsia]

Is there any significant difference between riveted and butted mail?

Butted is cheaper and faster to make, but the links are much weaker.

[Eahland]

Is there any significant difference between riveted and butted mail?

Butted provides basically no protection against thrusts (including arrows and the like), and it comes apart fairly quickly in use, requiring constant maintenance. It's much faster and easier to make, though.

My hauberk is butted. I should have welded it when I made it - I had access to the necessary equipment, but didn't want to spend all the time and effort necessary to individually weld tens of thousands of little rings. I've spent so much time repairing it in the twenty years since that it would have saved me time in the long run.

[Purpelia]

What ford said. To put it simply butted mail is a term used to describe a construction where the chain links are simply bent closed with no actual sealing being applied. So a sufficient force is going to just pop them open. Where as riveted mail has these joints reinforced by rivets making the same thing far less possible.