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NS Military Realism Consultancy Thread Mark IX Spitfire

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Imperializt Russia
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NS Military Realism Consultancy Thread Mark IX Spitfire

Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:28 am

Bam.

For now, a copy-paste job of my Mark V Spitfire's OP.
The Spitfire V and IX were related developments and I had threads V and IX...
Shut up.

Now.

IS [x] THE RIGHT NUMBER OF TROOPS FOR MY NATION
I'm gonna be completely honest for you here. We cannot answer this for you. You're also asking the wrong question. Intrigued? Read further.

Moving along.

This thread is devoted to the presentation and discussion of military technology, tactics and concepts in a realistic setting, as well as the development, deployment and discussion of general military technology. Images are welcome, though we ask that excessively large images (to be determined at presentation) be spoiler'd.

There's something that should definitely be noted here. Seriously.
If you're unwilling to take this point to heart, stop before posting.
If you post something in this thread, whether for critique explicitly, or just to post - you have basically submitted it for critique. If it seems... in some way or other peculiar, it will be critiqued.
Take this as it is, a critique, and not as an insult or a slight.

Further, players are encouraged to ask questions, and answer questions to the best of their ability. The adage "Better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt" is apt. If you don't know what you're talking about, don't post. If you don't know, ask. Someone will tell you. Try to learn from what the more experienced players have to say, and use that knowledge to improve your understanding. As always, to the veterans, this is not an excuse to flame, troll or otherwise act in an insulting way towards posters. Finally, while some people believe there "is no such thing as a stupid question", posts which are judged by moderation to be made with the express intent to anger, upset or other wise piss off the regular posters of the thread will be treated as trolling.

Useful links to basic concepts will be added to this OP from time to time, but for now, a FAQ:

Nuclear Warfare Primer
Effects of Nuclear Weapons (Federation of American Scientists)
EMP Effects of Nuclear Weapons (Federation of American Scientists)
Effects of Nuclear Weapons (Princeton University [pdf])
That third link is a lecture given at Princeton University. It's amazingly in depth and pretty impressive.

How should I organise my force?
So, organisation. Organisation's an interesting one.
Possibly the most key point will be supporting elements. It's a very easy mistake to form up even entire divisions from simply stacking platoons into companies, into battalions, into regiments and up to divisions.
Supporting elements can range from something as basic as the headquarters of a formation, to an anti-tank unit, to an entire artillery regiment in a division and a field bakery.
To wit, here's a couple of images of a Russian Battalion, Regiment and Division from the Cold War-era. Click the images for full size.
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/718x508q90/59/dleq7.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/536x508q90/838/c9ur.jpg

Let's look at the Battalion (first image, right). It's made up of three companies, of three platoons each. Describing the BMP armament as a 76mm gun and the rifle as an AKM, it's clearly an old diagram. But still fine.
Note, on the right of the diagram, supporting elements. A mortar battery and an anti-tank platoon - and a series of units described as "tail". Tail, in military parlance, is primarily logistical supporting formations. The Battalion has a relatively "light" tail, of an ambulance, a technical support vehicle and five fuel and cargo trucks.

The Regiment? It features three Battalions, still with their subordinate supporting elements. But it adds even more supporting elements. A battalion of tanks. A reconnaissance company. An artillery subformation with anti-tank, field artillery and anti-air units. A "special troops" subformation of chemical defence and sappers (engineers). An expanded-size tail, with field kitchens, expanded medical section, expanded fuel and cargo section (forty vehicles in addition to the five each of a rifle battalion and those of the tank battalion)
The Division is much the same story. Several of the smaller formation, supporting arms, supporting logistics. It continues up beyond this level and further.

Here are some more Federation of American Scientists links, to American Field Manuals on organisation. The FM-100-2-3 and FM-100-60 manuals, to be precise.
https://www.fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm100-2-3.pdf
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land ... 100-60.htm

From Akasha's #4 thread, also all marvellous points:
The Akasha Colony wrote:Frequently Asked Questions

  • How big should my military be?
Before you just fire off that question in this thread, think about a few things, namely what the military's strategic role is supposed to be and how you plan to use it. A small home defense force not expected to be deployed will need fewer men and less money than a big expeditionary military or an enemy-at-the-gates Israel-like mmilitary. It seems common to compare militaries as a percentage of population, so it should be pointed out that in real-life, nations with a military population greater than 1% are exceptionally rare. In fact, out of the top six defense spenders globally, only one (Russia) has an active-duty strength greater than 0.5% of the population, and it's still well short of 1%. Of course, this is still NS, so there's a bit more latitude, but for a nation that expects to have a functioning economy, 2-3% is the limit for a standing military in peacetime. It can surge further in war time when economics are a bit more flexible, but otherwise, keep it reasonable.
  • Should I model my military after Israel? I hear they're badass!
They are. But unless your strategic situation is like Israel's, there's no point. And by strategic situation I mean surrounded by angry neighbors who'd like nothing better than to wipe you off the face of the planet if they could and supported by a global superpower that showers money and defense contracts to support a military beyond your means. Israel's military is geared toward a very specific type of conflict, and it is not a good model for a general-purpose expeditionary military like many prefer to have on NS.
  • Is [x] concept a good idea?
First, stop and ask yourself 'Has anyone thought of this before?' If the answer is yes, ask yourself why it's not common today. Why have centuries of engineers, theorists, strategists, tacticians, and politicians not considered it a good idea themselves? Has anything changed to suddenly make this idea practical when it wasn't before? Does it seem too good to be true?
Could another nation use this idea? Generally speaking, whatever one nation can develop it can be reasonably expected another nation can develop the same general concept. How effective would it be if they developed it? If it seems like something only your nation can use for some reason, there's likely something wrong with it.
Could anything go wrong? Does it pass the grin test? Put perhaps a bit more simply,
Purpelia wrote:When looking at Wikipedia for fun stuff to use look at things that were a success. Not at things that were abandoned.

Stolen from Soode's Type 08 thread:

Links to Other Threads:

Past Military Realism Threads:
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread, Sept 2011 – May 2012
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #2, May 2012 – March 2013
NS Military Realism III, March 2013 – July 2013
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #4, July 2013 – Jan 2014
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #5, Jan 2014 – May 2014
NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6, May 2014 – Sept 2014
NS Military Realism Mk. 7, Sept 2014 – Feb 2015
NS Military Realism Type 08, Feb 2015 - Sept 2015

Other Threads in the Military Realism Family:
Military Ground Vehicles of your Nation: MBTs, IFVs, APCs, SPAAGs, and the like.
Your Nation’s Air Force: a place to talk about fighters, bombers, and aviation in general.
Your Nation’s Warships: nope, still no place for Longswords.
Non-Military Realism Consultation Thread: for things like police, government structure, and economics.
Infantry Discussion Thread: Never go Full Russian.
Create Your Own Everything: No, it's not technically a “realism” thread, but it's a nice place to post vehicle or uniform illustrations.
Last edited by Imperializt Russia on Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:45 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:32 am

I've changed the IDT link but if any of the others are wrong do let us know.
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Postby Azenyanistan » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:36 am

This is good!

I have a list of questions:

1. How practical are technicals?
2. What would the police do when the country is invaded?
3. Should I make special vehicles for civilian evacuation or would that be too much?
4. Which helicopter could transport tanks and troops together?
5. I am not a naval power but I wish to have some power enough to drive away anyone from my country. So should I use patrol crafts and frigates only?
6. Could somebody please give me the military hierarchy of Syria?
7. How effective are tanks as battering rams?

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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:44 am

A technical is a cheap, versatile, easily disguised platform for irregulars. It can mount heavy weapons from HMGs, light autocannons, mortars, recoilless rifles and ATGMs. It will always suffer from poor protection and will be less effective than a dedicated military jeep.

Your police are (usually) a civil service. They would try and maintain order in the civil populace and at best do their jobs. As civil employees of the government, they would probably surrender in event of invasion. They might be left to do their jobs, but it's unlikely if it's a routinely armed unit. Police commanders might be expected by an invader to collaborate.

No helicopter will reasonably carry "tanks", by which I mean MBTs. Few helicopters will carry scout tanks like Scorpion. Most heavy lift helicopters could carry a tankette like the Weisel, but would be better used to carry just troops, or possibly an artillery piece, jeep or light truck.
Civil evacuations would probably be done by military helicopter, diverting logistical units, and seizure of civil assets like buses, coaches and the like, as well as military trucks again probably diverted from logistical units.

A tank is forty, fifty, sixty tonnes of steel. Think of them as ill-equipped bulldozers with a gun.
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Postby Haishan » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:49 am

Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502 wrote:'The latest in robotics' include robots that can barely walk on a flat and level surface without falling down. On a good day.

You can say the majority of your military is based off the US military, and if you need help with that, great. But your animatronics - and the things you were asking about before - are pure fantasy. Realism need not apply.

On be other hand, I am having FNAF flashbacks.


"The latest" in robotics runs up to 6.4 kph, weighs in at 110 kg, can carry up to 150 kg and capable to climb over 35 deg incline on a good day. This is all in 2008. Frankly I'm surprised on why NS didn't have it to slap some Stinger or Javelin and call it a day. You can also kick it and it will get back up no problem.

There is also a faster version, outrunning Usain Bolt at 26 kph on a good day. All of them just use ordinary engines and no tacky atomics needed.

Narnia might get away with using PEM hydrogen fuel cells but that might fall on PMT category due to size and then intelligence issues (the showcased robots are kind of stupid but at least the first linked one can actually follow a set leader).


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Postby Azenyanistan » Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:49 am

Is using dump trucks as hidden MLRS trucks a good idea? I got inspired by Padnak!

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Postby Allanea » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:13 am

Azenyanistan wrote:Is using dump trucks as hidden MLRS trucks a good idea? I got inspired by Padnak!



No.

It only makes sense if you're Hamas. And even then it makes no sense - ever hear of a Hamas military victory?

Also, on the subject of battering rams: your military should have bulldozers.
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Postby Azenyanistan » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:14 am

Allanea wrote:
Azenyanistan wrote:Is using dump trucks as hidden MLRS trucks a good idea? I got inspired by Padnak!



No.

It only makes sense if you're Hamas. And even then it makes no sense - ever hear of a Hamas military victory?

Also, on the subject of battering rams: your military should have bulldozers.

But but Padnak


What about specialized vehicles intended to function as true battering rams?

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Postby Allanea » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:18 am

What are you ramming? Tanks can sort of kind of ram things in an emergency: Tank Ramming.

But dedicated ram vehicles are pointless.

Tank combat is waged at kilometers away.
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Postby Esgonia » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:19 am

Azenyanistan wrote:
Allanea wrote:

No.

It only makes sense if you're Hamas. And even then it makes no sense - ever hear of a Hamas military victory?

Also, on the subject of battering rams: your military should have bulldozers.

But but Padnak


What about specialized vehicles intended to function as true battering rams?

Or why not get an armored bulldozer instead?
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Postby Azenyanistan » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:20 am

Allanea wrote:What are you ramming? Tanks can sort of kind of ram things in an emergency: Tank Ramming.

But dedicated ram vehicles are pointless.

Tank combat is waged at kilometers away.


Okay

I was asking because I was going to give a faction of mine a few vehicles that can ram things, especially people, because they are suppose to be the most brutal faction supporting the foreign occupation.

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Postby Azenyanistan » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:23 am

Esgonia wrote:
Azenyanistan wrote:But but Padnak


What about specialized vehicles intended to function as true battering rams?

Or why not get an armored bulldozer instead?


thanks! :)

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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:25 am

Azenyanistan wrote:6. Could somebody please give me the military hierarchy of Syria?

Wikipedia is your friend

There is also an article that seeks to provide some analysis of the nature and structure of the Syrian armed forces. It's not exactly the best there is but it'll do.

Azenyanistan wrote:7. How effective are tanks as battering rams?

Not very.
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Postby Celibrae » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:26 am

Does anyone have sources on the attacking frontages of Soviet-style formations?
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:33 am

Celibrae wrote:Does anyone have sources on the attacking frontages of Soviet-style formations?

In what sense?
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:35 am

Korva wrote:
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Image

This is amazing and I love it.
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Postby Celibrae » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:36 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Celibrae wrote:Does anyone have sources on the attacking frontages of Soviet-style formations?

In what sense?


If a Soviet-style Motor Rifle Division, let's say, were to attack, how wide would it's frontage be? How deep?
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Postby Allanea » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:39 am

Solution:

1. Get an armored bulldozer.

2.. Rather than ram people, have it bulldoze their homes.

3. Put an RWS on top and shoot at the protestors who gather to whine about it.
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Postby Altito Asmoro » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:51 am

Allanea wrote:Solution:

1. Get an armored bulldozer.

2.. Rather than ram people, have it bulldoze their homes.

3. Put an RWS on top and shoot at the protestors who gather to whine about it.


And arm the armored bulldozer with weapons, perhaps light machine gun? To have weapons to fight back is important.
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Postby Allanea » Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:57 am

RWS stands for Remote Weapons Station.
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:02 am

Altito Asmoro wrote:
Allanea wrote:Solution:

1. Get an armored bulldozer.

2.. Rather than ram people, have it bulldoze their homes.

3. Put an RWS on top and shoot at the protestors who gather to whine about it.


And arm the armored bulldozer with weapons, perhaps light machine gun? To have weapons to fight back is important.

Fight back against what?
If it needs it, why aren't there infantry next to it?
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Postby Allanea » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:03 am

Well, the RL Israeli armored bulldozers have an RWS.
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Postby Schwere Panzer Abieltung 502 » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:04 am

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Postby The Nuclear Fist » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:06 am

What would becthe best way to deploy and use white phosphorus in battle? Is it useful against a competent conventional force?
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Postby Allanea » Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:08 am

It still generates smoke that can conceal your forces tactically, and can still set things like ammo dumps, fuel reservoirs, and small forests, on fire. Plus, it forces your enemy to wear gas masks.
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