Infantry Discussion Thread, Pattern 7: Sword Edition.

[The Kievan People]

Coilgun too, because FT NS.

Fix'd.

[Aqizithiuda]

I have a question about sabot discard on flechette rifles, particularly with those that don't use chemical propellant.

Would the setback forces of accelerating a projectile in a gradually tightening bore be enough to shear a teflon sabot along the connections between the petals? If not, i was thinking of the possibility of having a sort of pre-stressed plastic disc spring holding them together that would be fractured by the bore as the sabot was pulled through. It would allow the petals to be released from one another, and air resistance would do the rest once the projectile left the muzzle.

Would either of these things be sufficient to facilitate a clean discard (to promote accuracy), or are they not reliable enough?

Why not just use a normal sabot?

[Puzikas]

Puz, have you ever sperged about 7.62mm Tokarev? I want to chamber my nations SMGs and pistols in it.

Not number sperg like I normally do. But I have and its pretty properly known its a solid found as a result.

I've been slowly raising the intelligence level of the thread so I could preform more proper sperg. Problem is it reached a ceiling. A low one.

I have a question about sabot discard on flechette rifles, particularly with those that don't use chemical propellant.

Would the setback forces of accelerating a projectile in a gradually tightening bore be enough to shear a teflon sabot along the connections between the petals? If not, i was thinking of the possibility of having a sort of pre-stressed plastic disc spring holding them together that would be fractured by the bore as the sabot was pulled through. It would allow the petals to be released from one another, and air resistance would do the rest once the projectile left the muzzle.

Would either of these things be sufficient to facilitate a clean discard (to promote accuracy), or are they not reliable enough?

I mean

This is how Sabots work
But you're describing a squeezebore flechette.

We need to go deeper.
You could just use a normal Sabot and save yourself the trouble.

Is 9mm really any use in a military SMG?

Ctrl+F "9×19mm"

Should say something like "Showing results for "9×19mm ", 1/139."

So, yeah.

Would you not specifically need a high velocity 9mm variant like those new Russian pistols designed to take on light body armor?

Most 9x19mm FMJ rounds from a 6-10"/15-25cm barrel have sufficient muzzle Velocity to penetrate NIJ Rated level II vests. These rounds are traveling in excess of 1175ft/358mm per second at 50-25m. Some might be able to even penetrate a level IIIA vest (1400ft/s or 427m/s) at closer distances. Anything past that is just about the SMGs general effective fire range (50-100m), so it becomes a moot point, as that's rifle territory

Or any of the PDW rounds, assuming that you just shoot the guy enough to make up for any reduction in lethality the smaller bullet may have

I hate PDWs.

Consider that at excessive velocities (~1,500 m/s+), recoil impulse becomes much less manageable.

Recoil force is very much less dependent on Velocity and more the mass that you are pushing to said Velocity.

If you are firing a 120 grain projectile at 1500m/s, you are using large amounts of powder at high pressures and are therefore will have much more recoil than a normal weapon.

If you are firing a 28 grain projectile at 1500m/s you are using much less powder and pressure than precious 120 grain projectile. You are launching a lighter load faster and wilth less recoil.

[Mozria]

I have a question about sabot discard on flechette rifles, particularly with those that don't use chemical propellant.

Would the setback forces of accelerating a projectile in a gradually tightening bore be enough to shear a teflon sabot along the connections between the petals? If not, i was thinking of the possibility of having a sort of pre-stressed plastic disc spring holding them together that would be fractured by the bore as the sabot was pulled through. It would allow the petals to be released from one another, and air resistance would do the rest once the projectile left the muzzle.

Would either of these things be sufficient to facilitate a clean discard (to promote accuracy), or are they not reliable enough?

Why not just use a normal sabot?

The problem is, I'm not sure how a normal sabot would be forced to separate without gas pressure transferring stress to it via the obturator. From my understanding, that's a large part of the process.

That's why I'm asking about this. I'm not sure if mechanical pressure from the bore squeezing the sabot would be enough to cleanly shear it (allowing the air to pull it away after the muzzle) or if it would require a more direct method (hence the stressed disk).

[Fordorsia]

No no it's a knife I swear

The Fordorsian Cleaver is a style of large knife that has been popular with Fordorsian butchers, soldiers and outdoorsmen since the late 18th century. While the guards and handles varied in style over the years, the blade has always remained broad and curved, staying between 300mm and 400mm long with a full tang. The knives that were owned by civilians for self defense purposes during the 19th century were often highly decorated, with the blade being made of pattern welded steel inlayed with gold, though the majority of the knives were rather plain.

[Gran La Plata]

No no it's a knife I swear

The Fordorsian Cleaver is a style of large knife that has been popular with Fordorsian butchers, soldiers and outdoorsmen since the late 18th century. While the guards and handles varied in style over the years, the blade has always remained broad and curved, staying between 300mm and 400mm long with a full tang. The knives that were owned by civilians for self defense purposes during the 19th century were often highly decorated, with the blade being made of pattern welded steel inlayed with gold, though the majority of the knives were rather plain.

I feel the need to ask you to draw me something so I can have art from everyone around here, but I have no idea what to ask for tbh.

[Fordorsia]

No no it's a knife I swear

The Fordorsian Cleaver is a style of large knife that has been popular with Fordorsian butchers, soldiers and outdoorsmen since the late 18th century. While the guards and handles varied in style over the years, the blade has always remained broad and curved, staying between 300mm and 400mm long with a full tang. The knives that were owned by civilians for self defense purposes during the 19th century were often highly decorated, with the blade being made of pattern welded steel inlayed with gold, though the majority of the knives were rather plain.

I feel the need to ask you to draw me something so I can have art from everyone around here, but I have no idea what to ask for tbh.

Try asking for a big fookin knoife

[Gran La Plata]

I feel the need to ask you to draw me something so I can have art from everyone around here, but I have no idea what to ask for tbh.

Try asking for a big fookin knoife

What about a big fucking sabre?

[Mozria]

Consider that at excessive velocities (~1,500 m/s+), recoil impulse becomes much less manageable.

Recoil force is very much less dependent on Velocity and more the mass that you are pushing to said Velocity.

If you are firing a 120 grain projectile at 1500m/s, you are using large amounts of powder at high pressures and are therefore will have much more recoil than a normal weapon.

If you are firing a 28 grain projectile at 1500m/s you are using much less powder and pressure than precious 120 grain projectile. You are launching a lighter load faster and wilth less recoil.

Well, yes, but I was more describing the behavior of my own design than setting a precedent for all. This particular projectile masses at seven grams when saboted, and has a muzzle energy of close to five thousand joules when propelled to 1,200 m/s. I don't particularly want to go much higher than that, as both recoil and power draw (equal to muzzle energy times 1/ accelerator efficiency) increase greatly when you add velocity.

[Fordorsia]

Try asking for a big fookin knoife

What about a big fucking sabre?

nigga please, I scale my swords now. No longer will I create stupidbig sabres.

[Aqizithiuda]

Why not just use a normal sabot?

The problem is, I'm not sure how a normal sabot would be forced to separate without gas pressure transferring stress to it via the obturator. From my understanding, that's a large part of the process.

That's why I'm asking about this. I'm not sure if mechanical pressure from the bore squeezing the sabot would be enough to cleanly shear it (allowing the air to pull it away after the muzzle) or if it would require a more direct method (hence the stressed disk).

Most sabots these days use the pressure generated by the projectile moving through the air to strip away the sabot. That's why AAI went from blowing their budget on strippers to making a rifle that (mostly) didn't break after a few hundred rounds.

[Gran La Plata]

What about a big fucking sabre?

nigga please, I scale my swords now. No longer will I create stupidbig sabres.

Normal fucking sabre?

[Mozria]

The problem is, I'm not sure how a normal sabot would be forced to separate without gas pressure transferring stress to it via the obturator. From my understanding, that's a large part of the process.

That's why I'm asking about this. I'm not sure if mechanical pressure from the bore squeezing the sabot would be enough to cleanly shear it (allowing the air to pull it away after the muzzle) or if it would require a more direct method (hence the stressed disk).

Most sabots these days use the pressure generated by the projectile moving through the air to strip away the sabot. That's why AAI went from blowing their budget on strippers to making a rifle that (mostly) didn't break after a few hundred rounds.

That's not the only mechanism, though. Drag plays a huge part in stripping the sabot away from the projectile, but first the sabot needs to be freed to separate. This is necessary because of how rigid the sabot needs to be in order to stay in one piece when it's not being fired (especially considering a scenario in which the saboted projectile is entirely independent of any kind of propellant case to hold it together). I know that APFSDS sabots are sheared within the bore using mechanical pressure, and so I would take it as being the most practical option in this case as well.

[Eisarn-Ara]

Hey guys, I found a fucky Armenian sniper rifle. It looks like they did unholy things to a mosin.

[Fordorsia]

nigga please, I scale my swords now. No longer will I create stupidbig sabres.

Normal fucking sabre?

eh, not really in the mood for making a sabre. Plus you would have to be specific regarding how you'd want it because I won't draw something that already exists.

[Allanea]

Mosins weren't involved. It's a bolt-action rifle in 5.45.

[Aqizithiuda]

Most sabots these days use the pressure generated by the projectile moving through the air to strip away the sabot. That's why AAI went from blowing their budget on strippers to making a rifle that (mostly) didn't break after a few hundred rounds.

That's not the only mechanism, though. Drag plays a huge part in stripping the sabot away from the projectile, but first the sabot needs to be freed to separate. This is necessary because of how rigid the sabot needs to be in order to stay in one piece when it's not being fired (especially considering a scenario in which the saboted projectile is entirely independent of any kind of propellant case to hold it together). I know that APFSDS sabots are sheared within the bore using mechanical pressure, and so I would take it as being the most practical option in this case as well.

So far as I know, the AAI (well, actually Honeywell) aerodynamic sabots were purely stripped by air pressure on exiting the barrel. These replaced the previous sabots, which requires a mechanical stripper. A similar kind of sabot was used with the Steyr ACR.

The Steyr IWS 2000 used a more conventional APDS style sabot, which may or may not have used air pressure or a pressure differential, I'm not sure, but it would probably work in your squeezebore design.

[Eisarn-Ara]

Mosins weren't involved. It's a bolt-action rifle in 5.45.

Yeah, you say that; but look at that bolt position. Knowing the Armenians, they just took some mosin scraps and nearly vinegar-grade vodka and blended it all together with various bits n' bobs from soviet small-arms scrap piles.

All banter aside, it's bolt-system looks suspiciously/vaguely mosin-ish in origin.

[Fordorsia]

Mosins weren't involved. It's a bolt-action rifle in 5.45.

Yeah, you say that; but look at that bolt position. Knowing the Armenians, they just took some mosin scraps and nearly vinegar-grade vodka and blended it all together with various bits n' bobs from soviet small-arms scrap piles.

All banter aside, it's bolt-system looks suspiciously/vaguely mosin-ish in origin.

It looks nothing like a Mosin's bolt, and not every bolt action rifle is a Mosin.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Normal fucking sabre?

eh, not really in the mood for making a sabre. Plus you would have to be specific regarding how you'd want it because I won't draw something that already exists.

take a longsword

give it the proportions of a spadone

nice thin blade

long scent stopper pommel

twist the quillons

give it a quillon block

arms and side rings

[Fordorsia]

eh, not really in the mood for making a sabre. Plus you would have to be specific regarding how you'd want it because I won't draw something that already exists.

take a longsword

give it the proportions of a spadone

nice thin blade

So make a longsword the size of a spadone, which widens the blade, then give it a really thin blade. What is this supposed to do.

[New Visegrad]

Mosins weren't involved. It's a bolt-action rifle in 5.45.

Yeah, you say that; but look at that bolt position. Knowing the Armenians, they just took some mosin scraps and nearly vinegar-grade vodka and blended it all together with various bits n' bobs from soviet small-arms scrap piles.

All banter aside, it's bolt-system looks suspiciously/vaguely mosin-ish in origin.

Its bolt-system looks suspiciously/vaguely like someone used some hardware-store components to jury-rig an AK or SVD chassis into some kind of Frankenstein's Bolt-Action Rifle. I admit I'm not a Mosin expert but that bolt handle really looks like it's actually part of a gate latch or something, not a Mosin.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

take a longsword

give it the proportions of a spadone

nice thin blade

So make a longsword the size of a spadone, which widens the blade, then give it a really thin blade. What is this supposed to do.

Make a spadone with a thin blade.

Duh.

[Ravincastle]

Recoil force is very much less dependent on Velocity and more the mass that you are pushing to said Velocity.

If you are firing a 120 grain projectile at 1500m/s, you are using large amounts of powder at high pressures and are therefore will have much more recoil than a normal weapon.

If you are firing a 28 grain projectile at 1500m/s you are using much less powder and pressure than precious 120 grain projectile. You are launching a lighter load faster and wilth less recoil.

Well, yes, but I was more describing the behavior of my own design than setting a precedent for all. This particular projectile masses at seven grams when saboted, and has a muzzle energy of close to five thousand joules when propelled to 1,200 m/s. I don't particularly want to go much higher than that, as both recoil and power draw (equal to muzzle energy times 1/ accelerator efficiency) increase greatly when you add velocity.

While I know that these equations does produce good result with long rod ammo, if you take a look at formula designed to predict the performance of naval guns, you see that velocity is often raised to a power of about 1.2, while mass is often raised to a power that is less than 0.3. Now this likely does not hold true for your specific case (as it was designed for steel projectiles on steel armor, with various fudge factors for the different characteristics of steel), it demonstrates something that generally has been found true for all armor piercing projectiles of modern weapons. High velocity is far more efficient than mass at producing penetration.

I find long rod penetration messy but assuming that you are using appropriate materials, the important factors are length, density, and velocity (hence tungsten or DU based penetrators, "long" rods, and the goal of high velocity in tank guns).

[Fordorsia]

So make a longsword the size of a spadone, which widens the blade, then give it a really thin blade. What is this supposed to do.

Make a spadone with a thin blade.

Duh.

Well yeah but why? I see no purpose for it.