NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08

[Velkanika]

Careful, advocating nuclear genocide is a bannable offense :S

Even discussing it is rightly a big no-no, lest the feelings of those on the wrong side of history get hurt '~'

My favorite part of that whole incident was getting reported twice in 30 minutes for non-actionable comments. I'm starting to think we should put a note in the OPs about gallows humor being part of the thread to prevent any more white knighting like that.

[The Soodean Imperium]

I'm looking into perhaps launching an orion type ICBM out of a submarine.

Yeah I'm gonna stop you right there...


Look. If you just want to go all-out to match the biggest bomb with the biggest delivery system, ignoring not only the question of how it can be done but also the question of why you want to do it, then that's perfectly fine. The vast majority of NS will not disagree with you. At one point there was even a "Screw Realism" RP group, and despite its name it had a few pretty good RPers (though I haven't heard anything of it in years). But the Military Realism Thread isn't the best place to roll out deliberately unrealistic ideas and defend them against all others' criticism. As Trans pointed out just a few pages ago, if you come into this thread with a question and plan to stick with your decision regardless of what others tell you, then why come here for advice at all?

Careful, advocating nuclear genocide is a bannable offense :S

Even discussing it is rightly a big no-no, lest the feelings of those on the wrong side of history get hurt '~'

Suit yourself, but this cuts both ways; I don't know about you, but I certainly don't want to see this thread hijacked by half a dozen angsty Summertime NSGers complaining that today's world would be liberated from amerikkkan imperelism if the Soviet Union had carpet-nuked Washington.

[Gallia-]

What is unrealistic about launching a large spacecraft from a submarine?

Pretty sure there's nothing stopping you.

[The Ukrainian Navy and Sea Guard]

Looking for a check on this Factbook:
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=the_ukrainian_navy_and_sea_guard/detail=factbook/id=460423

I think it is accurate for 2010 or so, but I am interested in others knowledge of more recent developements. Also I am not sure which ships still belong to them, as one landing craft seems to be inoperable, the other appears frequently in Marine excercises (so it may have been transferred) and the U170 is at Odessa now.

Also a second question: is the 25th or 79th Airmobile units from Ukraine better for strategic raiding, and at fighting in general? Is there a way to combine the idea of airmobile forces with a naval element (think like rigid raiders or something) that would effectively make them a compact combined arms group?

[Velkanika]

What is unrealistic about launching a large spacecraft from a submarine?

Pretty sure there's nothing stopping you.

Space launch vehicles for large spacecraft are typically larger than even a ballistic missile submarine. Assuming you could do it, the submarine required would displace so much water finding it wouldn't be very difficult.

And let's not get into what it would take to actually build a sub that size.

[Auroya]

Wouldn't a sub that size potentially have structural problems?

[Gallia-]

What is unrealistic about launching a large spacecraft from a submarine?

Pretty sure there's nothing stopping you.

Space launch vehicles for large spacecraft are typically larger than even a ballistic missile submarine. Assuming you could do it, the submarine required would displace so much water finding it wouldn't be very difficult.

And let's not get into what it would take to actually build a sub that size.

What makes it unrealistic?

There have been stupid ideas before. Stupider than even a submarine launch pad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey_% ... latform%29

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Space launch vehicles for large spacecraft are typically larger than even a ballistic missile submarine. Assuming you could do it, the submarine required would displace so much water finding it wouldn't be very difficult.

And let's not get into what it would take to actually build a sub that size.

What makes it unrealistic?

There have been stupid ideas before. Stupider than even a submarine launch pad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey_% ... latform%29

What's stupid about the Odyssey?

[Gallia-]

What makes it unrealistic?

There have been stupid ideas before. Stupider than even a submarine launch pad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey_% ... latform%29

What's stupid about the Odyssey?

Nothing particular really. It's rather small, I guess, but converting an oil rig was always cheaper than building a dedicated launch site.

[The Kievan People]

Launching an Orion from a sub would destroy the submarine.

[Gallia-]

Launching an Orion from a sub would destroy the submarine.

Well it would probably destroy anything without boosters.

If we define "submarine" loosely we can get away with it.

[The Ukrainian Navy and Sea Guard]

I hate to post again, but I realized my previous post was a bit convoluted, so let me try again:

Question 1:
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=the_ukrainian_navy_and_sea_guard/detail=factbook/id=460423
Above is my latest fact book about the Ukrainian equivalent of the Navy SEALS. Does anybody have any more information about them?

Question 2:
Are the 25th or 79th Air Mobile of Ukraine better units?

Question 3:
In the long run, is an Air Mobile Unit or a SEALS style unit going to be better for RP-ing purposes?

[New Vihenia]

Well it's certainly possible for launching sattelite using SLBM and from a submarine. Though yes.. payload capability is limited.

http://bellona.ru/bellona.org/english_i ... ssels/9514

Old news where Berlin technical university will pay Russian Northern fleet for launching sattelite in SLBM.

---------------------

Such capability in my view..looks promising for rapid restoration of communication network after nuclear strike.


Additional image :3 The SLBM Based SLV is named as Shtil and Volna. This one is Volna being loaded into a Delta submarine.

[Velkanika]

Wouldn't a sub that size potentially have structural problems?

Yes.

What makes it unrealistic?

There have been stupid ideas before. Stupider than even a submarine launch pad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey_% ... latform%29

The rocket it has to carry and launch is 200 feet tall or so. The first stage also generates 1-2 million force-pounds of thrust, so it'll destroy the pad when launched. Cold launching it from a silo like an SLBM isn't an option for something that size, and even if it was the exhaust would fry a submarine at periscope depth.

The Odyssey works because it can tolerate having the crap blown out of it after a launch without loosing structural integrity.

Well it's certainly possible for launching sattelite using SLBM and from a submarine. Though yes.. payload capability is limited.

http://bellona.ru/bellona.org/english_i ... ssels/9514

Old news where Berlin technical university will pay Russian Northern fleet for launching sattelite in SLBM.

---------------------

Such capability in my view..looks promising for rapid restoration of communication network after nuclear strike.


Additional image :3 The SLBM Based SLV is named as Shtil and Volna. This one is Volna being loaded into a Delta submarine.

(Image)

We're talking about large payloads here, but it's entirely possible to put a small satellite into LEO with an ICBM or SLBM. The delta-v difference between a suborbital flight and low Earth orbit is rather small.

[Palakistan]

Ok, so I'm in a RP, which is quite funny. Basically one nation has declared war on another. Nation A has war balloons with explosives and soldiers carrying spears and leather armor because they assumed Nation B's military is primitive. Of course, Nation B has Landkruzers. (Hopefully it doesn't rain). So, I'm supporting nation B with an 40 F-16's, land launched cruise missiles, and 6 combined arms regiments. This will be fun. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

[The Teutonic Republic]

I'm trying to find ways to increase the payload fraction of ballistic missiles, hence my interest in Orion. Assuming a sub launch like I said before a set of rocket boosters would propel it out of the water and into the air before the Orion drive activates and sends the missile on its way.

Other propulsion systems I've looked into are hybrid air-breathing/air augmeneted rockets (like the SABRE engine or Gnom) or nuclear-thermal rockets like a closed-cycle gas-core nuclear thermal rocket or a LOX-augmented Nuclear Thermal Rocket. Other options would be to use an aerospike engine or other altitude compensating nozzle.

The "liberty ship" detailed here uses seven closed-cycle gas-core nuclear thermal engines (aka nuclear lightbulbs) and has a wet mass of 2,700,000 kg and a payload of 900,000 kg. It's also unique int that unlike Orion or an open-cycle gas core nuclear thermal rocket the exhaust isn't radioactive. Scaling it down to a trident-II sized missile with a single smaller gas-core engine with 109,000 N of thrust would (in theory assuming it scales down without massive efficiency loss) give you a 59,000kg missile with a 20,000 kg throw weight.

[The Kievan People]

Just make the missile bigger.

Air breathing engines are pointless, they max out at Mach 5 with current technology and the added dead weight and removes most of the benefits of higher ISP in the first stage. Nuclear propulsion is impractically expensive.

[Allanea]

I'm looking into perhaps launching an orion type ICBM out of a submarine. The smallest Orion vehicle I could find was reference to an "orbital test" version which was to weigh 200 tons, use 0.03kt pulse units, and would be able to put some 80-100 tons of payload into LEO. Size would be on the order of 10-12 meter diameter and 18-24 meter height which would enable it to fit within a large SSBN. Since each orion ICBM would be able to carry some 200-300 MIRVs it's not like you would need that many of them to devastate an entire country or continent.

I'm not sure however if the orion drive would work underwater or if it would just destroy the submarine. Perhaps after being ejected with a hydraulic ram from the launch tube a set of rocket boosters would launch the Orion ICBM out from the water and a few dozen meters into the air before the orion drive kicks in.

The Soviets contemplated a device called a vzryvolet that was intended to be boosted into the stratosphere before the nuclear-explosion drive kicked in.

[Divergia]

Ok we're going to be doing a War RP in Sunalaya and my opponent is apparently having guns moved towards my borders here are the known specs is this at all realistic?

A MAP is essentially a large, mobile, bunker like platform.
It utilizes a nuclear fission reactor for power.
It uses eight XH-315 50mm HAAGs (3,000 RPM) and one SAM battery (comprised of ten missiles) for antiaircraft purposes.
It uses twelve M41 25mm auto cannons (2,500 RPM) for anti infantry purposes.
Has a marksman's nest to the front and an onboard radar to the rear.
It is longer than it is wide with its 1000mm main guns placed one in front of the other between the marksman's nest and radar.
It is two stories tall and heavily armored (68 inch thick composite) with firing ports on both levels for a 360 degree defense from men onboard (using anti armor and anti infantry weapons).
Has an empty weight (all weapons and systems removed) of 12,000 tons .
The platform reaches a top speed of seven miles per hour.
The onboard auto loaders make it possible to fire one round, from each gun, every thirty seconds.
Ammunition is initially transported separately.

different design with barrels being roughly twice as long as that Schwerer Gustav improving accuracy with the powder being replaced with roughly 500 pounds of high explosives."

that each MAP may be armed with at least two thermonuclear devices. Other confirmed projectiles include Thermobaric rounds, Depleted Uranium Flechette Anti-Infantry rounds capable of tearing through even the strongest personal body armor, HE (High Explosive) rounds, and Incendiary rounds, and HEI (High Explosive Incendiary).

It is also speculated that, with the known range of the platforms being 1,500 miles, that they would be capable of hitting targets at least 250 miles into Divergian territory. With their stationing,

[The Kievan People]

No.

Not even remotely.

[Divergia]

No.

Not even remotely.

Didn't think so either I just want to make sure.

[Padnak]

Mortars in the 81mm range can be man packed fairly easily by two or more people right?

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

I'm just wondering if it is even physically possible to make a nuclear weapon with that yield. Nuclear weapons aren't like regular explosives where you just add more explosives or fissionable material to get a larger explosion. I'm not sure you could make a nuclear weapon that size, and even if you could there is no way you could test it to seeif it would actually work.

Thermonuclear weapons have no maximum yield limit due to the use of lithium-6 enrichment to fuel the fusion reaction. They have a theoretical maximum efficiency of 6 megatons of TNT per metric ton, but other then those mass constraints there are no limits.


That said, the whole concept of a nuclear weapon with this kind of yield is incredibly stupid. It's so powerful it's literally useless as a credible deterrence.

Oh, and the standard calculation for an optimum burst height for this yield gives me 44,454 meters. The fireball has a radius of 16,000 meters at minimum which will penetrate the stratopause into the mesosphere and last approximately four minutes. I'm also getting a fallout-free minimum burst altitude of 150,000 meters, so no matter what this bomb will cause a nuclear winter by itself.


I see no reason to not nuke the commie bastards before they wipe out all life on the plant. Worst case, everyone dies when they set that thing off. Best case, we loose a third of our civilian population and wipe them out entirely.

Really thermonuclear maneuver warfare is the way to go.

[Rhoderberg]

If you can't drive straight to Moscow on a road made out of plate glass and dead communists, what's the point in going to war in the first place?

[Spirit of Hope]

Mortars in the 81mm range can be man packed fairly easily by two or more people right?

Easily? Probably not, certainly not with enough ammo to be useful.

Doable? Definitely, though you would probably have to do something to bring in more ammo.