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United Earthlings
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Postby United Earthlings » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:23 pm

Questers wrote:
United Earthlings wrote:Says the one who’s gone through over half a dozen divisional restructurings.
Yes, but the basics have remained the same throughout...


You can lie to yourself, but please don't lie to me... :p

The L52 AS-90 is not the same thing as the AHS Krab. The Krab is the L/52 Braveheart with the Korean chassis and a domestic Polish FCS. The AS-90 is either L/39 or L/52 but the British Army specifically chose not to upgrade to L/52 because of some issue with their ammo, not the design itself.


Ignore my sometimes finicky memory, found the post in question, you specifically mention using the L/52 gun not the AHS Krab and for whatever reason that got remembered as you using the AHS Krab, which you clearly do not.

Since, NS MIL likes its sources and I took the bother to double-check-here's the yummy sauce.

On a related note about equipment usage that I forget to ask last time: On the split between the two versions of the Ermine MBT you use, do you split it by brigade, battalion, company, etc… EX. two of your armored regiments use the Ermine C1, while the third armored regiment and the RHMG use the C2?

Or am I asking a question you haven’t really needed to have thought about before?

Questers wrote:
United Earthlings wrote:P.S. Will have an answer to your two questions you asked at the end of the Division Maneuvers section about Black's options, either posted on Friday or Saturday.
I can't wait to hear.


Can any decision be made by Black that does not risk a decisive breakthrough, either in the late or early stages of the battle? Can a counter-attack be made that doesn't jeopardize the Division's rear?

Yes, to both.

On the first question: If you accept the premise that no matter what one does, a Questers division is going to achieve a breakthrough somehow or someway and incorporate that definite possibility into your prior operational planning by positioning sufficient blocking mobile {reserve} forces to the rear, space permitting, to check said breakthrough, say, an whole other Armored Division, then said breakthrough is no longer as decisive as it first seems and the fight devolves to the side better able to attain mobility and situation awareness of what the other side is doing. Furthermore, through proper employment of terrain, blocking forces and defensive obstacles such as minefields you can channel where you want said breakthrough to happen in this case right into prepared kill zones and ambushes that will slow, degrade/attrit and eventually stop the breakthrough especially when it runs into opposition along its flanks against forces equal or superior to its strength.

On the second question and continuing with the first: Here's how the Commonwealth would respond and remember as this is a Corps/Army level fight, there is more than one division on the field of battle. For reference: Commonwealth Corps generally deploy with three divisions {1 infantry, 2 armored}, but depending on the operational requirements can be as large as five divisions plus supporting aviation and artillery/missile assets which in of itself can be as large as one of our infantry divisions manpower wise when fully deployed. Questers {you} mass artillery, the Commonwealth {we} mass airpower especially in regards to CAS/BAI as one corps by itself can have an entire air wing supporting it comprised of numerous aircraft types.

No matter how impressive or intimidating a Questers RHMG is, an entire armored division is more impressive/intimidating.

In that regard, Commonwealth Defence Forces would hold the line with Division 1 {Probably Infantry supported by mobile independent Armor Regiment(s)} and permit the RHMG its penetration into the rear area while holding in check through an elastic in-depth defense supported by numerous hedgehog defense fortifications against the various Brigades that constitute the main striking power of a Questers Division, which in our estimate is the far greater threat to the cohesion of a Commonwealth division or corps. The further that RHMG penetrates into the divisional/corps rear area, the more isolated it becomes from its own supporting corps/divisional/brigade assets while at the same time the inverse is happening as the RHMG becomes more exposed itself to the Commonwealth’s own Divisional/Corps assets such as air, artillery and missile fire.

Upon breakthrough of the MLR by the RHMG, the preposition rear area Division 2 {Armored} becomes active and begins its checking motion {counter-attack} supported by both aviation assets assigned to the Corps/Division {helicopter gunships as well as fighters, fighter-bombers, ISTAR, UAVs, bombers & attack aircraft} plus the Armored division's own organic Artillery support and any Corps level artillery/airpower currently not actively D3ing the enemies logistics & C4I capability.

What’s left of the RHMG encounters the forward elements of the three Armored Combat Battle-Groups that are converging on it. The commander of the RHMG now has a choice: A. Press ahead against an enemy of unknown strength and hope for the best that it can fight its way forward to victory. B. Flank said force and hope said force is not the main element. C. Fall back {delaying action}.

Selecting A and B, leaves the RHMG both at a tactical and operational disadvantage that it if presses ahead it exposes it flanks and rear area to engagement by the other two equally powerful armored battle-groups. If it tries to flank, it losses some momentum and runs head-on into another Armored Combat Battle-Group, again setting it up at option A. C will probably permit the RHMG to survive, but probably result in the unit being render combat ineffective by the time it again reaches its own lines depending on how far it was able to advance into the rear area.

Meanwhile, the Commonwealth has decided this is the perfect time to launch a multi-prong Corps offensive north and south of the Corps/divisional fight in the centre. The battle for the centre results in a tactical draw with both sides having resumed their almost if not exact lines prior to the start of the Questerian offensive and finally the enemy {the Commonwealth} has launch its own massive offensive thereby now controlling the initiative for the time being.

Finally, and this is where doctrinal differences come into play with the Commonwealth's preference for smaller, but more numerous divisions mobilized overall as the Commonwealth still holds a full strength Armored Division in reserve in the Centre sectors Corps area which can either be shifted to the Corps north or south of it to act as a new reserve or used to keep pressure on the remaining assets of the Questerian Division in its current area of operations.

War is many things, but one of them is about sacrifice, one can lose the tactical battle and still win at the operational level. The Commonwealth is willing to sacrifice an entire division of personnel and material if that means gaining the larger victory at the operational and strategic level, which is where the war will ultimately be decided.
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Divergia
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Postby Divergia » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:27 am

Would a neutron bomb be better for an EMP?
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Postby The Kievan People » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:33 am

Divergia wrote:Would a neutron bomb be better for an EMP?


Details?
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Postby Roski » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:44 am

Divergia wrote:Would a neutron bomb be better for an EMP?


Detonating a nuclear bomb isn't a good idea

Unless they don't have nukes either than wtf ever
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:57 am

The Ukrainian Navy and Sea Guard wrote:So, insane idea of the week time! Get out your special angry-shouting megaphones, we're down the rabbit hole again:

The DPRK is dead. The inevitable Chinese-backed cue-de-ta to institute a democratic system of government, as in China, a country know for not violating human rights at all has occurred. About half the military sided with the people under the banner of " What could possibly go wrong? I mean, can it get any worse? We live in North Korea!", probably there was a general withdrawal from the DMZ due to internal turmoil, and possibly even some direct Chinese intervention. Point being, lots of stuff probably got wrecked, lets say all of the hillariously obsolete things (biplanes, Romeo-class submarines, T-55s, ect.).

Now, for starters, the first thing that the North would have to do in order to continue existing would be to have a massive military draw down, regain a level of solvency, and start frickkin' feeding it's people. I think I've got that one covered: Selling Arms to Kiev in exchange for grain. China is single-handedly reviving the Ukranian Agricultural sector right now,so they would be onboard. Ukraine of course needs all the arms it can get right now, which is all North Korea has to sell anyhow. Supporting Kiev would be a major PR cue, you know, 'cause Best Korea. Of course the Nukes would have to stay, though they might be able to be dismantled in house. So that would hopefully prevent immediate war with South Korea\rioting in the streets\mass starvation, and provide a bit of liquidity for the government.

So the question becomes: what is the minimum NK needs to keep itself safe as a non-piriah state actor? What are it's main threats, assuming Chinese support and an open border with the South? What kind of forces could it field for international peacekeeping operations? Keep in mind of course that money would be tight and disarmament a likely perquisite for a liberal communist country ala China.

I think much of the world will be scrabbling around wondering what the hell is happening in the north and wondering if anything needs to be attacked. US/ROK might have to be dissuaded from bombing sites like the Yongbyon reactor complex, chemical weapon sites and the like. North Korea is still under embargo and "new regime" or no, the US/ROK might be unwilling to lift that embargo for Ukrainian grain carriers. Persistence may pay off though. China might decide to lift the North's nuclear arsenals and material before the US gets to them, it might be able to reach out to both China and the US (jointly would be best? Maybe) about disarming its chemical arsenals.
Husseinarti wrote:
Padnak wrote:Against a Nimitz, how many C-802 (and comparable AShMs) do you guys think would be required for a mission kill of the ship and or, if deployed on a mission with little chance of returning, would a flight of 6 H-6 bombers each carrying 7 C-802s be able to do the job?


They'd get intercepted like 200km from the carrier because of the aircraft carried.

The air defence cordon can be breached, you know.
Divergia wrote:Would a neutron bomb be better for an EMP?

Neutrons kill the shit out of electronics, it's true. IIRC neutron bombs were considered for counter-ICBM work to fry electronic systems or outright kill warheads/buses.
Using it against battlefield targets will make the electronic effects irrelevant, because you've killed or grievously injured all the personnel manning that equipment.
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Velkanika
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Postby Velkanika » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:01 am

Divergia wrote:Would a neutron bomb be better for an EMP?

Actually, yes. Neutron bombs are designed to enhance radiation over blast effects, and that extra radiation will interact with the geomagnetic field and cause some enhanced EMP effects. There has been a lot of classified R&D into this by the USAF since the end of the Cold War, which is as much as anyone knows outside of the codeword compartment that deal with this.
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Postby Gallia- » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:58 am

Velkanika wrote:
Divergia wrote:Would a neutron bomb be better for an EMP?

Actually, yes. Neutron bombs are designed to enhance radiation over blast effects, and that extra radiation will interact with the geomagnetic field and cause some enhanced EMP effects. There has been a lot of classified R&D into this by the USAF since the end of the Cold War, which is as much as anyone knows outside of the codeword compartment that deal with this.

it doesnt matter

te preferece was always towards plasma weapons or particle beams for emp/electronic attack not nuclear

"neutron bombs" are an anti-tank weapon, not anti-electronic
Last edited by Gallia- on Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Questers » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:00 am

United Earthlings wrote:On a related note about equipment usage that I forget to ask last time: On the split between the two versions of the Ermine MBT you use, do you split it by brigade, battalion, company, etc… EX. two of your armored regiments use the Ermine C1, while the third armored regiment and the RHMG use the C2?

Or am I asking a question you haven’t really needed to have thought about before?
It's likely arbitrary, now that I have reformed it. Regiments are

United Earthlings wrote:remember as this is a Corps/Army level fight
I don't remember that being stipulated. It is obviously true that not every fight needs to be won, but the situation did not mention anything outside of the Division AO and also assumed (tho I didn't post it, the only other person to answer assumed the same... because it's an exercise) parity in anything not directly involved in the exercise. You shouldn't break ceteris paribus rules in an exercise because an exercise is not meant to parallel a thing that could happen. At that point there are too many variables. Maybe this Division is protecting your flank from being attacked, or maybe it itself is the vanguard of an advance, or maybe it is a distraction, etc.

also lol airpower

United Earthlings wrote:The further that RHMG penetrates into the divisional/corps rear area, the more isolated it becomes from its own supporting corps/divisional/brigade assets while at the same time the inverse is happening as the RHMG becomes more exposed itself to the Commonwealth’s own Divisional/Corps assets such as air, artillery and missile fire.

What’s left of the RHMG encounters the forward elements of the three Armored Combat Battle-Groups that are converging on it. The commander of the RHMG now has a choice: A. Press ahead against an enemy of unknown strength and hope for the best that it can fight its way forward to victory. B. Flank said force and hope said force is not the main element. C. Fall back {delaying action}.
I think this is the only useful point. The RHMG is something of a suicide mission, I feel, as it can be quite easily cut off. But I am willing to trade the RHMG for a Division's rear area because if it passes through unchecked and the reserves are diverted to other battles, it will pretty much destroy everything. It's not a difficult task to shoot up essentially defenceless vehicles. In my view the correct choice of action for black is to immediately counter-attack the RHMG and destroy it. This leaves the Red commander without his exploitation assets and also leaves him at a subunit disadvantage (which you sort of identified but at a much higher, not-stipulated, level). At that point, with a fourth subunit, the Black commander can take the initiative.
Last edited by Questers on Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Padnak
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Postby Padnak » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:07 am

Landmines are effective against hovercraft right? Just wondering if they would exert enough ground pressure to set them off
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:09 am

Padnak wrote:Landmines are effective against hovercraft right? Just wondering if they would exert enough ground pressure to set them off
I was goign to write a big post about defending Padnak but I don't really feel like it, I will say though... you must destroy the enemy as he lands or you will lose. There has never been a rebel movement in history that has won a war without a field army. And if a country is good enough to destroy your conventional forces and occupy your country, you will never mass a field army from insurgents capable of winning.

I guess the one exception is the Mujihadeen in Afghanistan. But they had basically every advantage on their side, including a number you do not have.

Asymmetrical/unconventional forces never win wars. Their only purpose is deterrence, or an outlet of a determination to total resistance. Only conventional forces win wars. Afghanistan is the exception.
Last edited by Questers on Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby New Vihenia » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:15 am

Padnak wrote:Against a Nimitz, how many C-802 (and comparable AShMs) do you guys think would be required for a mission kill of the ship and or, if deployed on a mission with little chance of returning, would a flight of 6 H-6 bombers each carrying 7 C-802s be able to do the job?


You don't do anti carrier operation with C-802.
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Padnak
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Postby Padnak » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:25 am

Questers wrote:
Padnak wrote:Landmines are effective against hovercraft right? Just wondering if they would exert enough ground pressure to set them off
I was goign to write a big post about defending Padnak but I don't really feel like it, I will say though... you must destroy the enemy as he lands or you will lose. There has never been a rebel movement in history that has won a war without a field army. And if a country is good enough to destroy your conventional forces and occupy your country, you will never mass a field army from insurgents capable of winning.

I guess the one exception is the Mujihadeen in Afghanistan. But they had basically every advantage on their side, including a number you do not have.

Asymmetrical/unconventional forces never win wars. Their only purpose is deterrence, or an outlet of a determination to total resistance. Only conventional forces win wars. Afghanistan is the exception.


My plan is to defend every viable beachhead on the home islands with dug in troops and obstetricals (mines, anti landing craft stakes etc) while holding back my armored and mechanized forces inland along the main avenues of approach towards what my military thinks will be the main targets of the invasion, with the idea being that as soon as hostile forces land they will launch a large scale counter attack. I would hold my armored/mechanized (and their supporting motorized forces) forces at the beaches but I don't have enough formations to defend my whole coastline so I thought it'd be a better idea to hold them in areas where they would be able to rapidly move to a large number of potential landing areas in support of existing forces defending those areas. As a backup I'm holding reserve units in defensive positions inland to support the counter attack with reinforcements and to act as a rear guard in the event that hostile forces try and land airborne troops behind the beach defenses.

On top of this I'm hoping to draw a large portion of the hostile navy away by running some of my best ships away from Padnak along with a bunch of my older submarines, hopefully which will pull at least one hostile carrier into a position where it can be attacked with a reasonable chance of success. I'm also hoping that my heavily dug in troops stationed on the number of smaller islands around Padnak will force the invading force to slow down its invasion of the home islands while it clears the small islands. To give the invaders a reason to go after the small islands instead of simply bypassing them I have a number of shore based AShM batteries located on them in heavily protected cave and tunnel complexes.

If at all possible I hope to win conventionally, or at least with conventional forces, by stopping out any hostile beachheads before they can become major outlets for troops moving into Padnak and/or by inflicting enough damage on invading navy that I win a political victory


New Vihenia wrote:
Padnak wrote:Against a Nimitz, how many C-802 (and comparable AShMs) do you guys think would be required for a mission kill of the ship and or, if deployed on a mission with little chance of returning, would a flight of 6 H-6 bombers each carrying 7 C-802s be able to do the job?


You don't do anti carrier operation with C-802.


But its all I have in significant numbers :(
Last edited by Padnak on Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Inquilabstan wrote:It is official now. Padnak is really Cobra Commander.

Bezombia wrote:It was about this time that Padnak slowly realized that the thread he thought was about gaming was, in fact, an eight story tall crustacean from the protozoic era.

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Questers
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Postby Questers » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:28 am

You don't need to defend all the beaches. Not all beaches are suitable strategic locations to land. You could use a significant amount of decoy/deception work here.
Last edited by Questers on Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Padnak
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Postby Padnak » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:33 am

Questers wrote:You don't need to defend all the beaches. Not all beaches are suitable strategic locations to land. You could use a significant amount of decoy/deception work here.


I should have clarified*, all the beaches that would make viable landing areas. My forces aren't going to defend beaches on the edges of hundreds of kilometers of uninhabited jungle lol
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San-Silvacian: Aug 11, 2011-Mar 20, 2015
Inquilabstan wrote:It is official now. Padnak is really Cobra Commander.

Bezombia wrote:It was about this time that Padnak slowly realized that the thread he thought was about gaming was, in fact, an eight story tall crustacean from the protozoic era.

Husseinarti wrote:Powered Borscht.

Because cosmonauts should never think that even in the depths of space they are free from the Soviet Union.

The Kievan People wrote:As usual, this is Padnak's fault, but we need to move on.

Immoren wrote:Again we've sexual tension that can be cut with a bowie.

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Postby Gallia- » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:36 am

You wouldn't defend the beaches at all tbh.

You'd have mobile reserves inland, motor rifle regiments or tank regiments or whatever, that would react to landings within a certain radius. Ideally you'd be full strength around T+180 minutes but T+330 is probably more realistic for Padnak.
Last edited by Gallia- on Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Padnak
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Postby Padnak » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:38 am

Gallia- wrote:You wouldn't defend the beaches at all tbh.

You'd have mobile reserves inland, motor rifle regiments or tank regiments or whatever, that would react to landings within a certain radius.


Padnak wrote:while holding back my armored and mechanized forces inland along the main avenues of approach towards what my military thinks will be the main targets of the invasion, with the idea being that as soon as hostile forces land they will launch a large scale counter attack. I would hold my armored/mechanized (and their supporting motorized forces) forces at the beaches but I don't have enough formations to defend my whole coastline so I thought it'd be a better idea to hold them in areas where they would be able to rapidly move to a large number of potential landing areas in support of existing forces defending those areas. As a backup I'm holding reserve units in defensive positions inland to support the counter attack with reinforcements and to act as a rear guard in the event that hostile forces try and land airborne troops behind the beach defenses.
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San-Silvacian: Aug 11, 2011-Mar 20, 2015
Inquilabstan wrote:It is official now. Padnak is really Cobra Commander.

Bezombia wrote:It was about this time that Padnak slowly realized that the thread he thought was about gaming was, in fact, an eight story tall crustacean from the protozoic era.

Husseinarti wrote:Powered Borscht.

Because cosmonauts should never think that even in the depths of space they are free from the Soviet Union.

The Kievan People wrote:As usual, this is Padnak's fault, but we need to move on.

Immoren wrote:Again we've sexual tension that can be cut with a bowie.

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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:39 am

You don't understand. The beaches would be literally undefended.

It's a pointless waste of resources. They'll just go down the beach like five miles and land there, bypassing your static defences entirely.

The entire defence is your mobile force. You have trucks. Use them.

e: Well ok, "literally undefended" is a misnomer rly. You might have like a shack with a couple of guys with M16s and a radio.
Last edited by Gallia- on Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Korva » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:42 am

Padnak wrote:Landmines are effective against hovercraft right? Just wondering if they would exert enough ground pressure to set them off

I guess it depends on the trigger mechanism but I don't think so.

Also, why don't you have DE subs D:


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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:46 am

Gallia- wrote:Hitler only had to defend 15% of the French coastline and it was still spotty.

Imagine defending 70% of it with similar obstacles.

Unpossible.

America could do it.
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Postby Padnak » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:47 am

Gallia- wrote:Hitler only had to defend 15% of the French coastline and it was still spotty.

Imagine defending 70% of it with similar obstacles.

Unpossible.


I was just going to dig some trenches and hide in some tunnels :(
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San-Silvacian: Aug 11, 2011-Mar 20, 2015
Inquilabstan wrote:It is official now. Padnak is really Cobra Commander.

Bezombia wrote:It was about this time that Padnak slowly realized that the thread he thought was about gaming was, in fact, an eight story tall crustacean from the protozoic era.

Husseinarti wrote:Powered Borscht.

Because cosmonauts should never think that even in the depths of space they are free from the Soviet Union.

The Kievan People wrote:As usual, this is Padnak's fault, but we need to move on.

Immoren wrote:Again we've sexual tension that can be cut with a bowie.

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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:51 am

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Gallia- wrote:Hitler only had to defend 15% of the French coastline and it was still spotty.

Imagine defending 70% of it with similar obstacles.

Unpossible.

America could do it.


No, they couldn't.

The United States wouldn't have enough men to have significant numbers in/around 70% of its coast line. They may be able to erect defenses along all 70% of the beaches, but they aren't going to have enough men to man all of those defenses.
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The Empire of Pretantia
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:00 am

Spirit of Hope wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:America could do it.


No, they couldn't.

The United States wouldn't have enough men to have significant numbers in/around 70% of its coast line. They may be able to erect defenses along all 70% of the beaches, but they aren't going to have enough men to man all of those defenses.

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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:06 am

Padnak wrote:
Gallia- wrote:Hitler only had to defend 15% of the French coastline and it was still spotty.

Imagine defending 70% of it with similar obstacles.

Unpossible.


I was just going to dig some trenches and hide in some tunnels :(


Why? You'll just get back in your trucks and go somewhere else after digging said trenches.

Just play volleyball.

Naked.

All beach defence is based on the extreme mobility of armoured troops and amphibious forces alike. The Atlantic Wall wasn't going to stop the Allies and the Nazi generals knew it, so they knew they needed a armoured reserve to attack the enemy divisions. Nowadays, with the speed of hovercraft equipped landing forces and the terrain they can land on, you have to defend about five times the geographical area than previous wars. Naturally, you can afford fixed defences when you only have to defend maybe 1-2% of your coastline like Hitler did in the Greater Reich, but even that is expensive in time and resources.

When you're looking over a quarter or more, you're going to start spreading mobile troops around instead of building bunkers or whatever. The closest to a bunker during a 21st century opposed landing would probably be a mobile anti-shipping missile battery, which would shoot at landing ships and craft as they appear, and probably get bombed pretty quick.

It's just cheaper to have like three or four regiments of guys sitting a few miles inland than having those same three or four regiments, plus the Atlantic Wall and a billion fortress battalions or whatever.

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Padnak
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Founded: Feb 19, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Padnak » Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:30 am

How's this for a plan;

dig and build defenses near most of Padnak's beaches (which shouldn't be to much work, the country is pretty small) but leave them unoccupied, save for maybe a few low readiness reservists, to give the impression that there is massive defensive line to be overcome by any landing force and to actually be used by my forces in the event that that beach is being landed on. Defenses 5-20 km inland from the shore-
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Need weapons for dubious purposes? Buy Padarm today!
San-Silvacian: Aug 11, 2011-Mar 20, 2015
Inquilabstan wrote:It is official now. Padnak is really Cobra Commander.

Bezombia wrote:It was about this time that Padnak slowly realized that the thread he thought was about gaming was, in fact, an eight story tall crustacean from the protozoic era.

Husseinarti wrote:Powered Borscht.

Because cosmonauts should never think that even in the depths of space they are free from the Soviet Union.

The Kievan People wrote:As usual, this is Padnak's fault, but we need to move on.

Immoren wrote:Again we've sexual tension that can be cut with a bowie.

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