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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08

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Tule
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Postby Tule » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:48 pm

Die erworbenen Namen wrote:Alright now that we answered that question (still a cool tank, imo), we can answer the second one:

So I know that APFSDS and HEAT have recently been getting the same penetration values or so, and I know HEAT is as good as you chan chuck it, and so is HESH. What are the advantages over each other? The disadvantages?


HEAT warheads get the same penetration value regardless of target distance because they aren't reliant on velocity to achieve penetration. They are also capable of very deep penetration, roughly 7 times their diameter when their liner is made of copper and 10 times their diameter when their liner is made of Depleted Uranium.

Because of their effectiveness regardless of impact velocity, they can be made very portable. A single infantryman can't throw an APFSDS at a tank and penetrate it, but it can launch a HEAT warhead through the front of an ERA equipped Challenger 2 or turn a T-72 into a torch.

HEAT warheads however are far simpler to defend against than APFSDS rounds however. You can use relatively simple and lightweight armor to counter them, and they are vulnerable to APS'. Iraqi tanks got torn apart by coalition APFSDS shells in the Gulf War, but they often shrugged off MILAN anti-tank missiles by using thin rubber and metal sandwiches.

APFSDS shells need to be heavy and really fast to penetrate armor. This requires a powerful gun weighing as much as a family saloon car. Not exactly easily portable.

However, APFSDS are far more difficult to stop. To do so you require very heavy Depleted Uranium bar armor or perforated steel armor. For this reason an MBT can't be made as well protected against APFSDS as it can be made against HEAT. In many cases only the frontal turret armor can withstand an APFSDS round.

HESH is quite good against light AFV's and structures, and it can be fired much further than the other types of shells. But it is not very effective against modern Special/Reactive armor like the kind found on MBT's.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:55 pm

I've been telling myself for a while that KEPs don't lose an appreciable amount of energy over distance.
If we assume an average KEP has a muzzle velocity of 1500m/s and loses about 75m/s per second...
Then it loses 10% of its kinetic energy every second in flight. So when fighting at four kilometres, it's impacting with about three-quarters of its muzzle energy.

That's actually a lot.
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:59 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:I've been telling myself for a while that KEPs don't lose an appreciable amount of energy over distance.
If we assume an average KEP has a muzzle velocity of 1500m/s and loses about 75m/s per second...
Then it loses 10% of its kinetic energy every second in flight. So when fighting at four kilometres, it's impacting with about three-quarters of its muzzle energy.

That's actually a lot.


That requires it losses 75 m/s per second of flight. Do we actually know how much it is? I would think there are studies on it, though they may be classified.
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:01 pm

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:I've been telling myself for a while that KEPs don't lose an appreciable amount of energy over distance.
If we assume an average KEP has a muzzle velocity of 1500m/s and loses about 75m/s per second...
Then it loses 10% of its kinetic energy every second in flight. So when fighting at four kilometres, it's impacting with about three-quarters of its muzzle energy.

That's actually a lot.


That requires it losses 75 m/s per second of flight. Do we actually know how much it is? I would think there are studies on it, though they may be classified.

75m/s per second is a commonly quoted figure. I think it's primarily due to air resistance, but it's almost certainly an approximation (since, functionally, all KEPs are basically the same shape and diameter, though different lengths).
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:08 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:
That requires it losses 75 m/s per second of flight. Do we actually know how much it is? I would think there are studies on it, though they may be classified.

75m/s per second is a commonly quoted figure. I think it's primarily due to air resistance, but it's almost certainly an approximation (since, functionally, all KEPs are basically the same shape and diameter, though different lengths).

Air resistance would seam like the cause, but it is really annoying to try and figure out how much it resists. I was just wondering if there are any studies of it that might give more detail.

Because air resistance is dependent on your speed, higher speeds mean higher resistance. Thus a KEP may only lose 75 m/s in the first second, and less over the following seconds. However since I haven't really seen any numbers talking about this I can't really say where they 75 m/s loss comes from.
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:12 pm

75m/s per second is commonly given on Tanknet where I've seen penetration threads.
Most KEPs will have a muzzle velocity of between 1200-1600m/s and rarely higher. This is the region between supersonic and hypersonic flight (touching Mach 5).

It might just be convenient, since 75m/s per second with 1500m/s muzzle velocity is 5% velocity loss per second (and therefore, 10% energy loss).
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:16 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:75m/s per second is commonly given on Tanknet where I've seen penetration threads.
Most KEPs will have a muzzle velocity of between 1200-1600m/s and rarely higher. This is the region between supersonic and hypersonic flight (touching Mach 5).

It might just be convenient, since 75m/s per second with 1500m/s muzzle velocity is 5% velocity loss per second (and therefore, 10% energy loss).

I'm just curious where they got that number from. It kinda sounds like one pulled from thing air, and just accepted. Like the "7 meter rule" the infantry combat at 300 meters, etc. Things that everyone agrees on but few people can actually say where it got started and what it actually means, vs. what it is accepted to mean.
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Postby Puzikas » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:18 pm

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Spirit of Hope wrote:
That requires it losses 75 m/s per second of flight. Do we actually know how much it is? I would think there are studies on it, though they may be classified.

75m/s per second is a commonly quoted figure. I think it's primarily due to air resistance, but it's almost certainly an approximation (since, functionally, all KEPs are basically the same shape and diameter, though different lengths).


I dont know for sure about APFSDS projectiles (because I dont have the ballistic coefficients) but its worthwhile noting that exponential loss of projectile energy is a thing.
That said the speed and design of APFSDS projectiles ensures that any appreciable loss of energy will not be until it travels considerable distance, well beyond, in all likelihood, the normal engagement distance for tank.
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:44 pm

http://ciar.org/shotmagnet/Armor%20and% ... argets.pdf

1). Not entirely sure I'm reading this right.
2). Don't know if I should trust this.
3). It talks about a 140mm KEP.
4). I'm on my phone.
But it does indicate a loss of 2 MJs from muzzle to a target at 2,000 meters. Obviously this isn't the 4,000 meters mentioned in your first post, but it would indicate a far lower energy lass than the initial estimate.
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New Vihenia
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Postby New Vihenia » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:16 pm

Spirit of Hope wrote:
That requires it losses 75 m/s per second of flight. Do we actually know how much it is? I would think there are studies on it, though they may be classified.


You can actually predict drag thus speed loss using similar equation as guided missile in unpowered flight.


Another note.

Penetrator velocity loss is measured in m/s/1000 m. So Penetrator A with velocity loss of say 75 m/s/1000 m Will lost 75 m/s after 1000 m range of flight. So in 2000 m it will lost 75x2=150 m/s
Last edited by New Vihenia on Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dostanuot Loj
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Postby Dostanuot Loj » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:39 pm

I have always been told, by people who use the things, that APFSDS from NATO 120mm smoothbore guns lose 50m/s every kilometer of flight.

If that helps anybody. I know I've read it somewhere official too but its been years since then and I can't remember where.
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New Vihenia
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Postby New Vihenia » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:40 pm

Dostanuot Loj wrote:I have always been told, by people who use the things, that APFSDS from NATO 120mm smoothbore guns lose 50m/s every kilometer of flight.

If that helps anybody. I know I've read it somewhere official too but its been years since then and I can't remember where.


Well Technology of Tanks book have that figure :3
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The Kievan People
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Postby The Kievan People » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:48 pm

I'll just quote Lanz and Odermatt:

The velocity loss due to drag during the projectile flight is relatively small with rods. Consequently detailed calculations were not carried out. The loss was calculated by an approximate formula using the constant air density, 1.225 kg/m3. When the parameters of muzzle velocity, mass, length of the penetrator, as well as the fin cross sections are considered, the calculated velocity drop is in the range of 50 to 90 m/sec per 1000 m.


So 70 m/s per km is right in the middle of the range used by professionals in published papers.
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Postby The Kievan People » Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:50 pm

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Roski
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Postby Roski » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:35 pm

Anyone know the basic make up of the typical American infantry regiment and Calvary regiment?

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Postby Husseinarti » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:39 pm

Roski wrote:Anyone know the basic make up of the typical American infantry regiment and Calvary regiment?

Modern day ofc


http://shipbucket.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=3485&start=10

here is the cav regiment
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Mitheldalond
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Postby Mitheldalond » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:52 pm

Die erworbenen Namen wrote:Alright. That's how ERA works, right? It works against both?

Everyone else has already covered it pretty well, but here's a useful link on the subject.

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United States Kingdom
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Postby United States Kingdom » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 pm

Someone please critically criticize what I need to do to improve it. Please!

The Thor Industries “Silent Wind” USK-153 is a medium-altitude, long endurance(MALE) multipurpose drone created by the government owned Thor Industries, the top defence company in the United States Kingdom. Recognizing the need to update its forces, as well as to begin to show that while the United States government concentrates most of its budget on helping the people through welfare, and improving educational standards, it also had a powerful military, and can be able to produce cost effective drones that are extremely capable.

This drone is one of the many steps the USK has undertaken to improve, and update its military, other credible examples being the National Protection Law that was passed by parliament(check the Factbook), among other steps. King Charles II stated that he wished the drone to be multipurpose, being able to carry various missions under a single platform, and that was what the Thor Industries military engineers did.

Being well aware of the fact that drones are used for missions, Thor Industries has designed this drone with four functions four specific missions, and the drones have the ability of using all specific mission functions at the same time. Furthermore, they also have the ability to change from one specific mission function to another. This was created in order to make sure that the drones can maintain versatility, and adaptability at the same time Firstly, the “Weapons Function” is designed for the drone to carry at least 2X 1500 pound bomb. Secondly, the “Endurance Function” is designed so that the drone can have greater endurance, and range. Thirdly, the “Radar Function” allows the drone to increase its radar range, in order for ground search, and surveillance to be done effectively. Lastly, the “Computer Function” allows the drone to transfer information, and allows it to change its mission function (modules) for faster.

In addition to that, the USK-153 also uses a GPS navigation device, allowing it to have an automatic navigation system, allowing the drone not to have a pre set flight plan. The drone also has a SAR radar, allowing the radar to gives intelligence imagery no matter how bad the weather is. This reinforces its multi role due to the fact that it can give intelligence. The drone also features a themographic camera, in order to monitor human activity in places that are considered threats to the USK's national security.

The drone is therefore highly capable, and its equipment, and design allow it to perform the task of a multi purpose drone effectively.
Variants:
None at the moment

General Characteristics
Crew: None (UAV)
Length: 14 m
Wingspan: 28 m
Height: 4 m
Empty Weight: 3000 kg
Takeoff Weight: 10,000 kg

Performance
Speed: 700 km/h
Range: 15000 km
Endurance: 24 hours
Service Ceiling: 15,000 m

Armament
Capacity to be able to carry 2 X 1500 lb bombs or 3X air to air/air to ground missiles
External Pylons: Allows the drone to carry 4 air to air missiles, guided bombs.

Sensors and Avionics
Martin Airborne Synthetic Aperture Radar
Airbone Recce Observation System (AREOS)
Datalink(MADL, Link 16)
Themographic Camera
GPS System

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The Kievan People
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Postby The Kievan People » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:13 pm

The "functions" sound like something from Command Conquer.

Drop any mention of them.
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Postby Vitaphone Racing » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:21 pm

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:I've been telling myself for a while that KEPs don't lose an appreciable amount of energy over distance.
If we assume an average KEP has a muzzle velocity of 1500m/s and loses about 75m/s per second...
Then it loses 10% of its kinetic energy every second in flight. So when fighting at four kilometres, it's impacting with about three-quarters of its muzzle energy.

That's actually a lot.


That requires it losses 75 m/s per second of flight. Do we actually know how much it is? I would think there are studies on it, though they may be classified.

Depending on how much you care, you can work something like this out with excel or a pen and paper. You know all the parameters you need.
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Padnak
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Postby Padnak » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:24 pm

Against a Nimitz, how many C-802 (and comparable AShMs) do you guys think would be required for a mission kill of the ship and or, if deployed on a mission with little chance of returning, would a flight of 6 H-6 bombers each carrying 7 C-802s be able to do the job?
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The Ukrainian Navy and Sea Guard
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Postby The Ukrainian Navy and Sea Guard » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:03 pm

So, insane idea of the week time! Get out your special angry-shouting megaphones, we're down the rabbit hole again:

The DPRK is dead. The inevitable Chinese-backed cue-de-ta to institute a democratic system of government, as in China, a country know for not violating human rights at all has occurred. About half the military sided with the people under the banner of " What could possibly go wrong? I mean, can it get any worse? We live in North Korea!", probably there was a general withdrawal from the DMZ due to internal turmoil, and possibly even some direct Chinese intervention. Point being, lots of stuff probably got wrecked, lets say all of the hillariously obsolete things (biplanes, Romeo-class submarines, T-55s, ect.).

Now, for starters, the first thing that the North would have to do in order to continue existing would be to have a massive military draw down, regain a level of solvency, and start frickkin' feeding it's people. I think I've got that one covered: Selling Arms to Kiev in exchange for grain. China is single-handedly reviving the Ukranian Agricultural sector right now,so they would be onboard. Ukraine of course needs all the arms it can get right now, which is all North Korea has to sell anyhow. Supporting Kiev would be a major PR cue, you know, 'cause Best Korea. Of course the Nukes would have to stay, though they might be able to be dismantled in house. So that would hopefully prevent immediate war with South Korea\rioting in the streets\mass starvation, and provide a bit of liquidity for the government.

So the question becomes: what is the minimum NK needs to keep itself safe as a non-piriah state actor? What are it's main threats, assuming Chinese support and an open border with the South? What kind of forces could it field for international peacekeeping operations? Keep in mind of course that money would be tight and disarmament a likely perquisite for a liberal communist country ala China.
Last edited by The Ukrainian Navy and Sea Guard on Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Husseinarti
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Postby Husseinarti » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:29 pm

Padnak wrote:Against a Nimitz, how many C-802 (and comparable AShMs) do you guys think would be required for a mission kill of the ship and or, if deployed on a mission with little chance of returning, would a flight of 6 H-6 bombers each carrying 7 C-802s be able to do the job?


They'd get intercepted like 200km from the carrier because of the aircraft carried.
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MNSMR
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Postby MNSMR » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:08 pm

Hey guyzzz, but I'm posting to find your opinions on an armed spacecraft in MT. If I do do it, It'll be lightly armed, and very light.

Just to show what kind experience I have with space craft, I am in the process of making a solar system for my region, and I have created a spacecraft for sale in my region. I would love it if you guys would take a look at my LAZARUS-1 fact book to show what I can do before you give any feedback.

http://www.nationstates.net/nation=mnsm ... /id=458491

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Velkanika
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Postby Velkanika » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:50 pm

Padnak wrote:Against a Nimitz, how many C-802 (and comparable AShMs) do you guys think would be required for a mission kill of the ship and or, if deployed on a mission with little chance of returning, would a flight of 6 H-6 bombers each carrying 7 C-802s be able to do the job?

Depending on where it's hit, one or two hits could stop flight operations for anywhere from until the fire's out to six months in the yard for an extensive repair.

I doubt you could get Badgers close enough to launch C-802s against a carrier group on the open ocean without some serious escort to get them through the BARCAP. At minimum, that means dealing with six F/A-18E/F Super Hornets. If they're expecting you and don't have any aircraft down for maintenance you're looking at twenty-four F/A-18Es, twelve -18Fs, and twelve -18Cs you'd have to get past. No matter what there will be at least one E-2D Hawkeye airborne to provide early warning to help control the air battle, and they'll probably have an EA-18G Growler or three airborne as well to complicate things for any kind of escort you might bring to protect the Badgers.
The necessity of a navy, in the restricted sense of the word, springs, therefore, from the existence of a peaceful shipping, and disappears with it, except in the case of a nation which has aggressive tendencies, and keeps up a navy merely as a branch of the military establishment. 1
1Alfred T. Mahan, The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783, 12th ed. (Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1890), 26.

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