NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08

[Gallia-]

How's this sound as the armor scheme for an MBT:

It's similar to duplex ERA, with an outer layer made up of, for current lack of a better name, not!Kontakt 5 (15mm steel, 35mm explosive, 20mm steel), followed by a 25mm gap, another layer of Kontakt 5, another 25mm gap, and finally 55mm of armor steel.

However, both 25mm gaps and the plates on either side of them also form two layers of electric reactive armor. The 20mm steel backing plates on both layers of ERA have a thin layer of rubber (or some other insulator) to help prevent the electric armor from going off accidentally.

This scheme should allow every section of the turret front to potentially absorb as many as 4 hits in the same spot, yet the entire array is only 245mm thick, and about half of that is air and plastic explosives. Maintenance and repairs are also quick and easy, since you just have to replace used ERA bricks.

Rather bad.

[Gallia-]

An M1A1 Abrams, obviously.

That's obviousy not English writing, and I'm wondering what the deal is with the ERA, it doesn't appear to look like TUSK...

Yes, the tank is named "Boat".

The ERA is probably just track pads or something they glued onto the tank.

[Mitheldalond]

How's this sound as the armor scheme for an MBT:

It's similar to duplex ERA, with an outer layer made up of, for current lack of a better name, not!Kontakt 5 (15mm steel, 35mm explosive, 20mm steel), followed by a 25mm gap, another layer of Kontakt 5, another 25mm gap, and finally 55mm of armor steel.

However, both 25mm gaps and the plates on either side of them also form two layers of electric reactive armor. The 20mm steel backing plates on both layers of ERA have a thin layer of rubber (or some other insulator) to help prevent the electric armor from going off accidentally.

This scheme should allow every section of the turret front to potentially absorb as many as 4 hits in the same spot, yet the entire array is only 245mm thick, and about half of that is air and plastic explosives. Maintenance and repairs are also quick and easy, since you just have to replace used ERA bricks.

Rather bad.

Why?

The front of the turret is angled at 80 degrees from the vertical, and the sides are at ~50 degrees.

[Gallia-]

Rather bad.

Why?

The front of the turret is angled at 80 degrees from the vertical, and the sides are at ~50 degrees.

now it's even worse

i suggest you read more about tank protection

the bulk of a tank's armour is and will remain for the foreseeable future to be...steel

steel is the greatest armour known to man it stops everything given sufficient quantities everything else just helps steel stop things

abrams has the better part of a meter of armour between its steel front face and the crew compartment you want to be close to this to be reasonably well protected for an mbt

duplex stacked era will not double your protection or whatever that's very silly you should feel very silly

i would be shocked if this armour array could stop 76mm hvap that killed the fame nazi "Tiger" tank three times in a single fight

electric reactive armour doesnt work tbh even if it did it's too big there's a reaosn the test vehicle was a warrior not a challenger it's for batteries in the troop compartment

this is a very inefficient and very poorly designed array please come back again when you have mulled over the subject for a brief while

also sloping isnt quite important anymore as it was that's why leopard 2 is only sloped in one dimension and it's flat faced abrams is a complex slope that is basically patton turret fitted with chobham it's a very old fashioned design i suggest you copy it it's probaly the best one

challenger makes my head hurt looking at it

none of the sloping is extreme because extreme sloping is pointless it consumes too much internal space and has zero appreciable benefit for the tank except in reducing profile which reduces chance to be hit see abrams upper hull glacis which is fine

[Spirit of Hope]

What else should I do?

What you need to do is step back and answer some questions about your nation and its military. I understand wanting to jump in and build a military but that doesn't work. Take it from someone who spent years trying to make his military numbers work by just pushing.

Think about the economy and politics of your nation. How much does your nation make (GDP)? How much does it make per person (GDP per capita)? What is your population? How much does your nation spend on the military? How manly people are in your military? Why has your nation reached those numbers? What other costs does your nations government have?

Think about why your nation has a military. Who is it supposed to be fighting? Why may it be fighting those people? When fighting those people what are your objectives? Where will you be fighting them? How long do you plan on fighting them? How dedicated are you to fighting them?

you don't have to reply here, just write the answers down somewhere. And then go looking at real world nations that have some similarities. I had a nation that ended up looking like a weird South Korean/France cross socially and politically. So I looked at those nations to base my military off of. You may find there is no good analogue in the real world, but that there are some nations that have some pieces. Work at it.

For organization, look at how it is done in the real world, and what real world armies need and use. In the first post of this thread are a number of links for how military units have been organized. I've quoted the relevant section bellow.

ORBATs and Organization:
Armoured Acorn Find ORBATs under the “references” tab; a better listing of vehicles than most, but doesn’t show personnel.
FM-100-2-3: The Soviet Army’s organization near the end of the Cold War; small inaccuracies throughout.
FM-100-60: Organization of the Heavy Mechanized OPFOR, a US “evolution” of the Soviet Army.
FM-100-63: Organization of the Infantry-Based OPFOR. Think Iraq or Serbia instead of the USSR.
FM 3-21.21: The Stryker Brigade Infantry Battalion.
Shipbucket Organization page: A visual thinker? This has FD-scale images of RL countries’ platoons and companies.
TM-E 30-480: Japanese Army Organization in WWII
UK TOEs

Take a look at these. They are a great help in figuring out organizations, and numbers of vehicles. Look at the Wikipedia pages of armed forces you want to emulate, based on the earlier questions and your answers. Look at any resource that starts giving number and types of units, vehicles, and personnel of real world armed forces. It takes a while to build a nation well but as you do the research it pays off with an understanding of how you reached those numbers and what your nation feels like.

[The Kievan People]

How's this sound as the armor scheme for an MBT:

It's similar to duplex ERA, with an outer layer made up of, for current lack of a better name, not!Kontakt 5 (15mm steel, 35mm explosive, 20mm steel), followed by a 25mm gap, another layer of Kontakt 5, another 25mm gap, and finally 55mm of armor steel.

However, both 25mm gaps and the plates on either side of them also form two layers of electric reactive armor. The 20mm steel backing plates on both layers of ERA have a thin layer of rubber (or some other insulator) to help prevent the electric armor from going off accidentally.

This scheme should allow every section of the turret front to potentially absorb as many as 4 hits in the same spot, yet the entire array is only 245mm thick, and about half of that is air and plastic explosives. Maintenance and repairs are also quick and easy, since you just have to replace used ERA bricks.

1. Layered ERA blocks will be detonated by a single round, the remains of a shaped charge jet or APFSDS are more than sufficient to trigger subsequent modules. This is why IRL they exist to counter tandem charges or ERA-defeating APFSDS. So it will survive about as many hits as any ERA installation. One.
2. eRA is not useful at present and is nothing but a bad alternative to actual ERA.

[Iltica]

I'm having a hard time deciding whether it makes more historical sense to have NATO or Warsaw equipment.
It's probably not likely to have a mix of both, unless It's in transition which has happened occasionally after the collapse of the USSR.
Geographically, it's about where Somalia and Ethiopia are but differs considerably from those countries in terms of economy and culture. They probably would have tried to stay neutral, but whether they would have stayed that way idk. Even if they managed to stay neutral, they probably wouldn't have their own unique sizes.

[Imperializt Russia]

An M1A1 Abrams, obviously.

That's obviousy not English writing, and I'm wondering what the deal is with the ERA, it doesn't appear to look like TUSK...

It's a tank named "Boat" (what that writing is in cyrillic).
It's an OPFOR M1A1 for training purposes so it's not real ERA. I doubt it's meant to represent an M1A1 though...

[Ictia]

Is there any point in having military intelligence separated from the civil inteligence service???

For example, many CNI agents (The Spanish civil inteligence service) came from the army or the Guardia Civil (Spanish Gendarmerie) and i read that it happens in many other countries.

[The Akasha Colony]

Is there any point in having military intelligence separated from the civil inteligence service???

For example, many CNI agents (The Spanish civil inteligence service) came from the army or the Guardia Civil (Spanish Gendarmerie) and i read that it happens in many other countries.

The reasons are usually political. Operatives who are not members of the military can be more easily disowned. A military operative if captured can be directly linked to the government that dispatched him/her, while a civilian operative may be disowned as overt ties to the dispatching government are harder to prove in absolute terms.

Many treaties draw distinctions between registered military personnel (who are entitled to protections under various conventions if captured) and civilian operatives (who have no protections but whose allegiance is easier to mask).

Plus, military and civilian intelligence cover different things. Civilian intelligence operates more heavily in the political sphere, doing things like engineering coups, market manipulation, diplomatic maneuvering, and so on. This intelligence is useful for diplomatic negotiations and political manipulation, but doesn't have tremendous value to commanders in the field who won't be sitting at the negotiating table. Military intelligence often focuses on things more relevant to the military itself, such as troop dispositions, deployments, technical information, and the like. This intelligence is designed to help military planners and commanders in the field develop battle plans and the like. There's a lot of overlap, and in the course of looking for one type of intelligence, others are usually gathered along the way, but it's a difference in focus.

Lots of intelligence agents go from the military to the civilian service because the civilian side is usually a bit "easier" in terms of creature comforts. No physical tests, no promotion boards, often better pay, more housing flexibility, etc. Trading the entire military lifestyle for a civilian one while still working in that analyst's area of expertise.

[Gallia-]

That's obviousy not English writing, and I'm wondering what the deal is with the ERA, it doesn't appear to look like TUSK...

It's a tank named "Boat" (what that writing is in cyrillic).
It's an OPFOR M1A1 for training purposes so it's not real ERA. I doubt it's meant to represent an M1A1 though...

Yes, it's a Krasnovian M1A1. As we know, Krasnovia has the strongest army in the world and is the only third world country to successfully beat the United States in a real fight.

[Patridam]

It's a tank named "Boat" (what that writing is in cyrillic).
It's an OPFOR M1A1 for training purposes so it's not real ERA. I doubt it's meant to represent an M1A1 though...

Yes, it's a Krasnovian M1A1. As we know, Krasnovia has the strongest army in the world and is the only third world country to successfully beat the United States in a real fight.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/31437/5- ... ined-fight

[Gallia-]

Yes, it's a Krasnovian M1A1. As we know, Krasnovia has the strongest army in the world and is the only third world country to successfully beat the United States in a real fight.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/31437/5- ... ined-fight

Yes.

The 15th Combined Arms Army once beat 600 US Army tank divisions in a fight with just the 125th Guards Tank Regiment.

[Imperializt Russia]

http://mentalfloss.com/article/31437/5- ... ined-fight

Yes.

The 15th Combined Arms Army once beat 600 US Army tank divisions in a fight with just the 125th Guards Tank Regiment.

How are these exercises supposed to actually work? What is the actual "outcome" of these? Why are the forces so heavily inflated?

I'm just not understanding the value of an exercise with the apparent parameters that would permit that situation.

[Gallia-]

Yes.

The 15th Combined Arms Army once beat 600 US Army tank divisions in a fight with just the 125th Guards Tank Regiment.

How are these exercises supposed to actually work? What is the actual "outcome" of these? Why are the forces so heavily inflated?

I'm just not understanding the value of an exercise with the apparent parameters that would permit that situation.

1) COs of whoever is at the NTC make a plan, in accordance to what they've trained with and what they know. OPFOR makes a better one, steamrolls America, and plants the Krasnovian flag in the company commander's still beating heart. Rinse repeat until Americans have been driven from the field of battle.

2) America loses. Hard. Generally the guys who go to NTC lose and then they dissect what they did right, what they did wrong, and what could be done better. Basically, OPFOR is a bunch of shits who "know the terrain" and "have experience" and other shit fighting US Army troops that anyone who goes to NTC dies. If Afghanistan is the Graveyard of Empires; Krasnovia is the Graveyard of Big Macs.

3) They aren't in reality. 11th ACR or whoever is at NTC generally fights a unit of comparable size and strength.

They're just better, they've done it a thousand times before, and also they cheat. 11 ACR guys like to reset their MILES gear after being killed and get back up.

The point of the exercise is to lose btw. You can't win Kobayashi Maru, you can only lose, and learn from your mistakes. Apply yourself better in the future and maybe you will win the real thing against an opponent who is miles and miles less competent than the one you fought.

In the Cold War OPFOR really got into it, using Soviet patches, uniforms, flags, "Boat", etc. It's not dissimilar to what happened at J-CATCH (gunship pilots painting F-15 kill markings and big Soviet armbands) or 4477th Test and Evaluation (Major Drake Red #44) etc. it's all highly amusing.

[Imperializt Russia]

So, having 600 armoured divisions is basically the whole "rinse and repeat" bit, right?

As I understand, Soviet exercises were quite poor but I can't recall what someone suggested the reason was. Wasn't it a unit purporting to be the Soviets fighting a unit purporting to be the Americans, but both sides fought like Soviets and to a script? Something along those lines?
I imagine that, compared to the repeated killing and dissection it offers, NTC is greatly superior as a training exercise and tool.

[Gallia-]

So, having 600 armoured divisions is basically the whole "rinse and repeat" bit, right?

As I understand, Soviet exercises were quite poor but I can't recall what someone suggested the reason was. Wasn't it a unit purporting to be the Soviets fighting a unit purporting to be the Americans, but both sides fought like Soviets and to a script? Something along those lines?
I imagine that, compared to the repeated killing and dissection it offers, NTC is greatly superior as a training exercise and tool.

1) I was being facetious, obviously(?), NTC trainers are just contractually obligated to win since they're home team.

2) I don't know anything about Soviet training exercises. OPFOR at NTC had their own doctrine to look at that was based on impressions or expectations of Soviet doctrine at the time so it was probably stereotyped. The biggest advantage they had was knowing American doctrine and how American commanders think, knowing the terrain, and a wealth of experience in fighting similar units in similar situations.

[Immoren]

What I remember about MILES excercises was that judges were as eager to eliminate the OPFOR as the units participating in those exercises-

[Vedria]

Would it be good if I added a support vehicle platoon to each tank company? They'd be made up of 2 SPAAGs and 1 SP SAM system, or 2 SPAAGs and 1 Assault Gun or TOS-1

[Imperializt Russia]

Too low down. Attach them at the battalion or higher and have them attached to companies on ad-hoc basis.

[Immoren]

Only organic SPAAG tank company needs is MBT with HMG on the roof.

[Gallia-]

120mm is all the spaag i need ;-;

[Vedria]

Too low down. Attach them at the battalion or higher and have them attached to companies on ad-hoc basis.

Anti-Aircraft Platoon it is. Thanks.

120mm is all the spaag i need ;-;

Only organic SPAAG tank company needs is MBT with HMG on the roof.

top kek

[Imperializt Russia]

Too low down. Attach them at the battalion or higher and have them attached to companies on ad-hoc basis.

Anti-Aircraft Platoon it is. Thanks.

120mm is all the spaag i need ;-;

Only organic SPAAG tank company needs is MBT with HMG on the roof.

top kek

It's true. Tank's main gun and commander's gun are both incredible threats to helicopters.

Also, for clarity, I was suggesting that anti-aircraft platoon be attached at the tank battalion - just shunted down to support companies. Company is too small to actually handle all those vehicles, while battalion is the level that one would expect supporting arms such as these to be attached directly.

[Vedria]

Anti-Aircraft Platoon it is. Thanks.top kek

It's true. Tank's main gun and commander's gun are both incredible threats to helicopters.

Also, for clarity, I was suggesting that anti-aircraft platoon be attached at the tank battalion - just shunted down to support companies. Company is too small to actually handle all those vehicles, while battalion is the level that one would expect supporting arms such as these to be attached directly.

Oh yes, I know. Tank guns always down helos whenever I play Armored Brigade.

Yes, I do know that. I'm merely stating they're a platoon for organizational purposes since their numbers would amount to that of a platoon's.