NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08

[Purpelia]

The next step that you're talking about is the civil servants ordering the factory to deliver materiel.

Why? Why can't we simply go up the ladder and say X fronts = Front Group, X Front Groups = Group of Front Groups etc. and end up with insanely large military formations that are still many steps down the line from the actual civilian command? This is not only plausible but an absolute necessity as troop counts grow.

If you were to have an army of say 10 billion soldiers it could well happen that a field army looks to them as a platoon would to our armies. It is completely implausible to assume that the commanders of such an army would simply decide to split them into fronts of 1 million soldiers each and just command 10000 of those. That sort of system would simply collapse under its own weight if you do not in fact add more and more levels of distribution.

[Immoren]

If unit wants/needs to do you have sustainment at some higher echelon supply depot/regiment. I'd guess that there as default would be bookkeeping so that the track of supplies can be kept. But do you have officially a some level of command where this paperwork can be discarded, because unit has so important print on the field, and bookkeeping can be done later, and if so, what level?
Because I had it so that if battalion or higher comes to the service regiment urgently demanding more supplies, then the service regiment commander has to give the keys so to speak.

[Imperializt Russia]

The next step that you're talking about is the civil servants ordering the factory to deliver materiel.

Why? Why can't we simply go up the ladder and say X fronts = Front Group, X Front Groups = Group of Front Groups etc. and end up with insanely large military formations that are still many steps down the line from the actual civilian command? This is not only plausible but an absolute necessity as troop counts grow.

If you were to have an army of say 10 billion soldiers it could well happen that a field army looks to them as a platoon would to our armies. It is completely implausible to assume that the commanders of such an army would simply decide to split them into fronts of 1 million soldiers each and just command 10000 of those. That sort of system would simply collapse under its own weight if you do not in fact add more and more levels of distribution.

Regardless of whether or not your military has 100,000 or 10 billion soldiers, the field army is and will always be a strategic unit on a strategic scale.

Just because the army is insanely bloated will not change the scale of warfare.

[Purpelia]

Regardless of whether or not your military has 100,000 or 10 billion soldiers, the field army is and will always be a strategic unit on a strategic scale.

Just because the army is insanely bloated will not change the scale of warfare.

So how do you control 10⁶ field armies than? They all need to fight on the same continent in full coordination and be commanded by a single command. How do you do it without having multiple levels in between, even if just for the purpose of administration? It's as physically impossible to do as commanding each soldier in a particular field army individually.

The rule that no commander can have more than 5-6 subordinates is there for a reason. That's how much you can physically manage before you just can't. So field armies can't grow indefinitely. At some point you have to just create a formation larger than them for the sake of management. And given enough troops this repeats it self recursively ad infinitum.

[Elan Valleys]

Regardless of whether or not your military has 100,000 or 10 billion soldiers, the field army is and will always be a strategic unit on a strategic scale.

Just because the army is insanely bloated will not change the scale of warfare.

So how do you control 10⁶ field armies than? They all need to fight on the same continent in full coordination and be commanded by a single command. How do you do it without having multiple levels in between, even if just for the purpose of administration? It's as physically impossible to do as commanding each soldier in a particular field army individually.

You are aware that you can have for instance a logistics brigade to get the stuff to a port in your home country and then one in the destination country without them both being part of some mega formation.

[Purpelia]

You are aware that you can have for instance a logistics brigade to get the stuff to a port in your home country and then one in the destination country without them both being part of some mega formation.

At some point though that brigade has to have 100 000 men just in order to be sufficiently large to carry 1% of your needs.

At this point I am basically talking about situations where you mobilize several times the population of Earth. But it still stands.

[Husseinarti]

You are aware that you can have for instance a logistics brigade to get the stuff to a port in your home country and then one in the destination country without them both being part of some mega formation.

At some point though that brigade has to have 100 000 men just in order to be sufficiently large to carry 1% of your needs.

At this point I am basically talking about situations where you mobilize several times the population of Earth. But it still stands.

Yeah and it's retarded as fuck.

[Purpelia]

Yeah and it's retarded as fuck.

You just can't get unstuck from your box, that's all. When doing FT I have to think in terms of trillions of infantry being mobilized to fight one another covering continent upon continent in a newer ending human wave of armored men poking one another with sharpened sticks.

[Husseinarti]

Yeah and it's retarded as fuck.

You just can't get unstuck from your box, that's all. When doing FT I have to think in terms of trillions of infantry being mobilized to fight one another covering continent upon continent in a newer ending human wave of armored men poking one another with sharpened sticks.

FT is a shit anyway.

[Questers]

Military formations as a rule are fractal tree graphs. They tend to operate similarly on all levels. They tend to be split into the same numbers of subunits with the same ratios between them. That's why we can for example look at a platoon mortar and conclude that somewhere along the line upward there will be an artillery battery. And we can know roughly at which level it is going to be as well since we can assume a similar proportion of fighting units to artillery support and use math. So by that logic there will come a point where there is a unit large enough that its subunit tasked with logistics will happen to be army sized.

I don't understand how you reached this conclusion.

You started out correct, but ignored the empirics, I think. Do you know of any army with a mortar brigade? Even when Soviet Union mobilised 20 million men it didn't have any mortar brigades. Even such thing as say, artillery division does exist, but its not appropriate for mortars to be put in brigade because theyre not a brigade asset. Logistics is kind of like that. What you are talking about is static logistics, which is run by bases and specific ports and rail units which are subordinated to a wider command. It doesn't make sense to have them as a formation because ... they don't move because its static logistics.

[Sakrand]

Although my nation posses a decent amount of oil (being based on Ecuador), has there ever been any major research into woodgas fuel in a military setting?

[Purpelia]

I don't understand how you reached this conclusion.

You started out correct, but ignored the empirics, I think. Do you know of any army with a mortar brigade? Even when Soviet Union mobilised 20 million men it didn't have any mortar brigades. Even such thing as say, artillery division does exist, but its not appropriate for mortars to be put in brigade because theyre not a brigade asset. Logistics is kind of like that. What you are talking about is static logistics, which is run by bases and specific ports and rail units which are subordinated to a wider command. It doesn't make sense to have them as a formation because ... they don't move because its static logistics.

Not mortar brigades, but artillery brigades. Or rather, indirect fire support units.
My postulate is that like with a fractal if you abstract the details you can look at a military unit at any level and it will resemble any other level.

A battalion is going to have X maneuver units, Y support units, Z artillery units etc. And a division, field army or platoon are all going to have A, B and C of those elements instead of X, Y and Z. But the proportion of A:B:C is going to be roughly the same as X:Y:Z.

[Kamurassia]

Although my nation posses a decent amount of oil (being based on Ecuador), has there ever been any major research into woodgas fuel in a military setting?

North Korea says hi


Its the second image on the woodgas wikipage

[Sakrand]

Although my nation posses a decent amount of oil (being based on Ecuador), has there ever been any major research into woodgas fuel in a military setting?

North Korea says hi

Its the second image on the woodgas wikipage

I've seen that, I assumed it was for civilian use

I'm wondering if there has ever been a widespread use of woodgas by a military

[Questers]

I don't understand how you reached this conclusion.

You started out correct, but ignored the empirics, I think. Do you know of any army with a mortar brigade? Even when Soviet Union mobilised 20 million men it didn't have any mortar brigades. Even such thing as say, artillery division does exist, but its not appropriate for mortars to be put in brigade because theyre not a brigade asset. Logistics is kind of like that. What you are talking about is static logistics, which is run by bases and specific ports and rail units which are subordinated to a wider command. It doesn't make sense to have them as a formation because ... they don't move because its static logistics.

My postulate is that like with a fractal if you abstract the details you can look at a military unit at any level and it will resemble any other level.

Do empiric research please.

[Woolzistan]

Woolzistan Land ORBAT



The graphic above provides an overview of Woolzistan's land forces. Woolzistan is geared towards fighting a defensive war, holding an invading force from a neighbouring nation at one of 14 border crossings. After this the armed forces focus on internal security, with a number of units focused on protecting the regime. Woolzistan is developing an expeditionary capability to operate overseas, and this is seen with the development of Airborne and Marine units that would be rapidly deployable.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

[Questers]

It looks really nice.

[Woolzistan]

It looks really nice.

Hey thanks. I intend to expand upon the Divisions at a later date and I have seen a post that asked after Special Forces so I aim to post there. In my NS region I am intending to RP a civil war, but am not entirely sure where to start so thought I'd smash out an ORBAT for government forces first!

[Vedria]

10 tanks x 3 crew each + coy leader and his assistant.

As for logistics, i see. How do you suggest I go about increasing it?

Where does company commander actually go?

I imagine that a Company will want to be commanded by more than two people. Many tanks, particularly those of Eastern Bloc origin (and many tanks generally, of WWII era and some time later), had "command" models for the use of unit commanders. These tanks sometimes removed armament (though retained a dummy gun barrel to reduce identification) and featured heavy radio communications equipment. Sometimes the dummy gun barrel served as a radio mast which could be raised.

I admit I didn't view the original structure, but how is a company of 10 tanks split? This surely only works as 2x5 or 5x2 (the former being relatively heavy and limited, and the latter too complex and weak) unless your company commander does have his own tank, in which case you would get three platoons of three. Still very small.
By most country's standards, this is an understrength company.

Yes, we do have command-variant MBTs for use by company commanders.

Those 10 tanks are split into one HQ section and 3, 3-tanks platoons. Im sort of going for a Soviet-style organizational strucur, as im using that Soviet Army PDF from FAS as a guide

[Palakistan]

Ok, help me here. My defense budget is 73,920,000,000 USD. What is off, what is wrong, what is too much, how much do I have to cut back on? I'm sure I have a million things wrong here...
Note: I'm am reducing military manpower to 800k troops. Where and how should I allot the troops? My navy is weak, ground forces good, airforce strong, intelligence great.

Turkistan Defense Forces (TDF) was created to defend our nation from foreign and domestic threats. The TDF's main goal is to protect its citizens and to protect its commerce with other nations. The TDF totals 1,500,000 troops, but only 800,000 are active. 700,000 unpaid reserve force. If the reserves are activated, they will be paid according to Turkistani wage codes.

TDF motto: "For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war."

Emblem:


The TDF is split into these groups:

Turkistan Ground Forces(TGF):

Motto: "You shall not Be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrows that fly by day."

Total manpower: 700,000 troops, 600,000 reserves
Divided into 4 armies:
1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th armies have each: 175,000 troops, 150 Merkava M4 windbreakers, 80 Namer APC's, 400 humvees, and 50 M109's

Turkistan Naval Forces(TNF):
Total manpower: 100,000 men, and 50,000 reserves

Motto: "He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. Navies shall bow before him."

1st naval task force includes:
3 sa'ar class 5 corvettes
9 dolphin class submarines
20 super Dvora Mk III patrol boats
2 Arleigh Burke class destroyers



Turkistan Air Forces(TAF):
Total manpower: 100,000 troops, 50,000 reserves

Motto: "Control the skies, control the war"

1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th air corps armies include each: 40 f-16 fighting Falcons, 7 b-2 bombers, , 5 A-130's and 10 AWAC's, and 70 AH-64 Apache Gunships


Turkistan Intelligence Group(TIG):

Motto: "Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety."

Total manpower: Classified, estimates up to 80,000 personnel.
TIG: international intelligence gathering
THG: homeland security
TMI: Military intelligence
TOB: Investigation bureau
TPS: protection services for vip's


Turkistan Logistics Force(TLF):

Motto: "The backbone of the war"

Total manpower: 440,000 service men, 250,000 reserves
Logistic corps is spreading it across the country, and cooperates with different branches. Typically the logistic corps handle the command structure and help direct combat flow. 3,000 M35 cargo trucks and 40 C-5 Galaxies.

Turkistan Commando Force(TCF):

Motto: "vos aut celare possunt"

Total manpower: 9,000
Mostly classified.

Turkistan Ballistic forces(TBF):

Motto: Destruction from afar"

Total manpower: 80,000 troops, 50,000 reserves
Controls over 1-2000 Jericho I SRBM's and 300 Jericho III ICBM's

[Imperializt Russia]

Your military is poorly-averagely funded. You spend two and a bit times the UK, but have ten times the manpower. Or eight, or six, I can't remember what it is anymore.

You split up your entire army into these four Army units. I do not feel this is wise. Do you require the use of a unit so large as the Army to be permanently stood?
The Army is a strategic unit. In peacetime, a unit of this size would be expected to control and defend a vast border region, tens of kilometres wide and possibly hundreds deep. In time of war, it would act in concert with several units like it to control a similarly-sized region of land, while fighting over a shallow frontage.

I would recommend only maintaining two such units, possibly three at a stretch. If you require four units of this size, you ought to have the manpower to staff at least a fifth, probably also a sixth. In peacetime you could operate this as having 2-3 active Armies with 1-2 dormant that exist as military districts. In time of war, these units would be activated as Armies which would prepare to mobilise as your second-echelon units.

These additional men would be used to staff much smaller units. Logistical formations and independent units - battalions, brigades, divisions. These units would be used in concert with large formations such as brigades, divisions and armies to bolster their capabilities in battle or operate as a reserve.

Critically, you seem woefully unmechanised. 400 humvees and 150 tanks are shared between 175,000 troops. A division of 10-20,000 men in a western or Russian force may at one time or another have featured 2-500 battle tanks. Thousands of trucks and jeeps. Dozens of artillery pieces.
An Army-size unit may feature a number of combat Divisions and therefore a couple thousand tanks, in addition to any vehicles of independent units assigned within it.

A point of flavour, your mottos are pretty long.
A good motto should be 2-4 words long.

[Husseinarti]

Woolzistan Land ORBAT

(Image)

The graphic above provides an overview of Woolzistan's land forces. Woolzistan is geared towards fighting a defensive war, holding an invading force from a neighbouring nation at one of 14 border crossings. After this the armed forces focus on internal security, with a number of units focused on protecting the regime. Woolzistan is developing an expeditionary capability to operate overseas, and this is seen with the development of Airborne and Marine units that would be rapidly deployable.

If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

I may do something like this :>

[Palakistan]

Your military is poorly-averagely funded. You spend two and a bit times the UK, but have ten times the manpower. Or eight, or six, I can't remember what it is anymore.

You split up your entire army into these four Army units. I do not feel this is wise. Do you require the use of a unit so large as the Army to be permanently stood?
The Army is a strategic unit. In peacetime, a unit of this size would be expected to control and defend a vast border region, tens of kilometres wide and possibly hundreds deep. In time of war, it would act in concert with several units like it to control a similarly-sized region of land, while fighting over a shallow frontage.

I would recommend only maintaining two such units, possibly three at a stretch. If you require four units of this size, you ought to have the manpower to staff at least a fifth, probably also a sixth. In peacetime you could operate this as having 2-3 active Armies with 1-2 dormant that exist as military districts. In time of war, these units would be activated as Armies which would prepare to mobilise as your second-echelon units.

These additional men would be used to staff much smaller units. Logistical formations and independent units - battalions, brigades, divisions. These units would be used in concert with large formations such as brigades, divisions and armies to bolster their capabilities in battle or operate as a reserve.

Critically, you seem woefully unmechanised. 400 humvees and 150 tanks are shared between 175,000 troops. A division of 10-20,000 men in a western or Russian force may at one time or another have featured 2-500 battle tanks. Thousands of trucks and jeeps. Dozens of artillery pieces.
An Army-size unit may feature a number of combat Divisions and therefore a couple thousand tanks, in addition to any vehicles of independent units assigned within it.

A point of flavour, your mottos are pretty long.
A good motto should be 2-4 words long.

Ok, I'll start editing it. But the mottos ain't changing!

[The Kievan People]

There is absolutely no reason you would want a separate "logistics force".

[Palakistan]

Ok new and improved. My armies are divided into battalions, and the battalions are divided into regiments. I'll give more info on that later.

Turkistan Defense Forces (TDF) was created to defend our nation from foreign and domestic threats. The TDF's main goal is to protect its citizens and to protect its commerce with other nations. The TDF totals 800,000 troops, 370,000 active, and 430,000 unpaid reserves. If the reserves are called up, they are paid according to Turkistani wage codes.

TDF motto: "For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war."

Emblem:


The TDF is split into these groups:

Turkistan Ground Forces(TGF):

Motto: "You shall not Be afraid of the terror by night, nor of the arrows that fly by day."

Total manpower: 70,000 troops, 150,000 reserves.
Divided into 4 armies:
1st, 2nd and 3rd armies have each: 23,000 troops, 500 Merkava M4 windbreakers, 300 Namer APC's, 1,000 humvees, and 50 M109's

Turkistan Naval Forces(TNF):
Total manpower: 30,000 men, and 50,000 reserves

Motto: "He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. Navies shall bow before him."

1st naval task force includes:
3 sa'ar class 5 corvettes
9 dolphin class submarines
20 super Dvora Mk III patrol boats
2 Arleigh Burke class destroyers



Turkistan Air Forces(TAF):
Total manpower: 50,000 troops, 20,000 reserves

Motto: "Control the skies, control the war"

1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th air corps armies include each: 40 f-16 fighting Falcons, 7 b-2 bombers, , 5 A-130's and 10 AWAC's, and 70 AH-64 Apache Gunships


Turkistan Intelligence Group(TIG):

Motto: "Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety."

Total manpower: Classified, estimates up to 80,000 personnel.
TIG: international intelligence gathering
THG: homeland security
TMI: Military intelligence
TOB: Investigation bureau
TPS: protection services for vip's


Turkistan Logistics Force(TLF):

Motto: "The backbone of the war"

Total manpower: 140,000 service men, 100,000 reserves
Logistic corps is spreading it across the country, and cooperates with different branches. Typically the logistic corps handle the command structure and help direct combat flow. 3,000 M35 cargo trucks and 40 C-5 Galaxies.

Turkistan Commando Force(TCF):

Motto: "vos aut celare possunt"

Total manpower: 9,000
Mostly classified.

Turkistan Ballistic forces(TBF):

Motto: Destruction from afar"

Total manpower: 80,000 troops, 50,000 reserves
Controls over 1-2000 Jericho I SRBM's and 300 Jericho III ICBM's