NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08

[Questers]

You just need more combat service support. You haven't added medical, transport, logistics, road-construction, etc. You could assimilate them all in one brigade, or distribute.

Arent the combat support battalions enough?

V. Combat Support Battalion

1x HQ Company

1x Logistics Company

1x Transportation Company

1x Maintenance & Equipment Company

1x Medical Platoon

VI. Combat Engineer Battalion

1x HQ Company

1x Pontoon Brigde Construction Company

1x Fortification Company

1x Road/Railway Repair Company

1x Sapper and Demolition Company

1x Assault Crossing Company

Yea they're fine if you want to have them run back to the corps store whenever you need a battalion to be resupplied.




Some graphs I made on the functions of a supply system.

Where does your Brigade supply element get its supplies from? From Division. Division gets it from Corps or w/e. How can the supplies flow from Corps->Division->Brigade along the Main Route of Supply if your only movement and replenishment element are at the Brigade? How can it be co-ordinated?

[Questers]

US Division https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... vision.png
UK Division https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 8UK%29.png
RUS Division https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19th_Moto ... vision.png

[Vedria]

Arent the combat support battalions enough?

V. Combat Support Battalion

1x HQ Company

1x Logistics Company

1x Transportation Company

1x Maintenance & Equipment Company

1x Medical Platoon

VI. Combat Engineer Battalion

1x HQ Company

1x Pontoon Brigde Construction Company

1x Fortification Company

1x Road/Railway Repair Company

1x Sapper and Demolition Company

1x Assault Crossing Company

Yea they're fine if you want to have them run back to the corps store whenever you need a battalion to be resupplied.




Some graphs I made on the functions of a supply system.

Where does your Brigade supply element get its supplies from? From Division. Division gets it from Corps or w/e. How can the supplies flow from Corps->Division->Brigade along the Main Route of Supply if your only movement and replenishment element are at the Brigade? How can it be co-ordinated?

Oh my god, those graphs are brilliant. +2 cool points.

I totally understand now how logistics work, and I'll get to revising my T/O. Thank you kind sir!

[Purpelia]

Here is a question of the completely random kind.

How large would a land force need to be in order for a formation titled "Supply Army" to make sense?

[Questers]

They exist, they're just not called that.

[Imperializt Russia]

Combat service support and combat support is insufficient. Very insufficient.

A troop is often used as a formation. 32 soldiers is a tiny tank company. More importantly, how many tanks is it?

10 tanks x 3 crew each + coy leader and his assistant.

As for logistics, i see. How do you suggest I go about increasing it?

Where does company commander actually go?

I imagine that a Company will want to be commanded by more than two people. Many tanks, particularly those of Eastern Bloc origin (and many tanks generally, of WWII era and some time later), had "command" models for the use of unit commanders. These tanks sometimes removed armament (though retained a dummy gun barrel to reduce identification) and featured heavy radio communications equipment. Sometimes the dummy gun barrel served as a radio mast which could be raised.

I admit I didn't view the original structure, but how is a company of 10 tanks split? This surely only works as 2x5 or 5x2 (the former being relatively heavy and limited, and the latter too complex and weak) unless your company commander does have his own tank, in which case you would get three platoons of three. Still very small.
By most country's standards, this is an understrength company.

[Purpelia]

They exist, they're just not called that.

Army sized supply units? As in a mobile supply unit, like say a supply company but the size of a field army? Like an organized centralized unit of 100,000 to 150,000 troops whose job it is to simply carry supplies from A to B and distribute them?

[Imperializt Russia]

They exist, they're just not called that.

Army sized supply units? As in a mobile supply unit, like say a supply company but the size of a field army? Like an organized centralized unit of 100,000 to 150,000 troops whose job it is to simply carry supplies from A to B and distribute them?

Arguably, you're describing the Logistical Corps itself.

[Purpelia]

Army sized supply units? As in a mobile supply unit, like say a supply company but the size of a field army? Like an organized centralized unit of 100,000 to 150,000 troops whose job it is to simply carry supplies from A to B and distribute them?

Arguably, you're describing the Logistical Corps itself.

Yes, but imagine if our Logistical Corps was much, much larger and had army sized units serving under it.

[Imperializt Russia]

It doesn't need to. With the amount of subunits subordinate to fighting formations, independent battalions and separate brigades, and the sheer amount of outsourcing that would exist in transiting large equipment of other shipments from home to the theatre would preclude the existence of such a large unit.
What you have instead is the Logistical Corps in its entirety.

[Purpelia]

It doesn't need to. With the amount of subunits subordinate to fighting formations, independent battalions and separate brigades, and the sheer amount of outsourcing that would exist in transiting large equipment of other shipments from home to the theatre would preclude the existence of such a large unit.
What you have instead is the Logistical Corps in its entirety.

But say your army was so large in numbers that you needed such a unit.

[Imperializt Russia]

It doesn't need to. With the amount of subunits subordinate to fighting formations, independent battalions and separate brigades, and the sheer amount of outsourcing that would exist in transiting large equipment of other shipments from home to the theatre would preclude the existence of such a large unit.
What you have instead is the Logistical Corps in its entirety.

But say your army was so large in numbers that you needed such a unit.

You wouldn't. You'd just need more, smaller units.

[Purpelia]

But say your army was so large in numbers that you needed such a unit.

You wouldn't. You'd just need more, smaller units.

But what happens when you get so many of those smaller units that you need to group them together just for the sake of control?

[Husseinarti]

Arguably, you're describing the Logistical Corps itself.

Yes, but imagine if our Logistical Corps was much, much larger and had army sized units serving under it.

So it's the US logistics supply system during WW2?

Only like, lies than 15% of all US servicemen were combat troops.

[Imperializt Russia]

You wouldn't. You'd just need more, smaller units.

But what happens when you get so many of those smaller units that you need to group them together just for the sake of control?

Many of them will be grouped under administrative and combat units anyway - brigades, divisions, corps, armies, fronts.

[Purpelia]

But what happens when you get so many of those smaller units that you need to group them together just for the sake of control?

Many of them will be grouped under administrative and combat units anyway - brigades, divisions, corps, armies, fronts.

We aren't talking about the same thing here. The supply units grouped into actual combat units are different. Your company supply unit gets its supplies from the battalion supply unit which gets its supplies from the brigade supply unit etc. like a tree structure or a pyramid if you will. But at the top of all that is the front. And someone has to supply that front. That's where the independent supply units I am talking about come in. It's the units that actually bring those supplies to the tip of the pyramid. The ones on the outside.

It's the units that are so high up the chain that they are NOT grouped in with combat units. And my question is how many fronts I need before the number of these units grows so much that the only way to coordinate them is to start grouping them into an entire parallel chain of command up until such a point where you actually have actual supply armies.

[Husseinarti]

Many of them will be grouped under administrative and combat units anyway - brigades, divisions, corps, armies, fronts.

We aren't talking about the same thing here. The supply units grouped into actual combat units are different. Your company supply unit gets its supplies from the battalion supply unit which gets its supplies from the brigade supply unit etc. like a tree structure or a pyramid if you will. But at the top of all that is the front. And someone has to supply that front. That's where the independent supply units I am talking about come in. It's the units that actually bring those supplies to the tip of the pyramid. The ones on the outside.

It's the units that are so high up the chain that they are NOT grouped in with combat units. And my question is how many fronts I need before the number of these units grows so much that the only way to coordinate them is to start grouping them into an entire parallel chain of command up until such a point where you actually have actual supply armies.

Us logistics during WW2 were all grouped within their combat units.

European theater of operations was a combat formation.

[Purpelia]

Us logistics during WW2 were all grouped within their combat units.

European theater of operations was a combat formation.

But there has to have been some sort of logistics unit outside of that feeding into the European theater of operations. Unless the troops are growing their own food and directly buying bullets out of factories there has to be someone on the outside providing this.

[Imperializt Russia]

Many of them will be grouped under administrative and combat units anyway - brigades, divisions, corps, armies, fronts.

We aren't talking about the same thing here. The supply units grouped into actual combat units are different. Your company supply unit gets its supplies from the battalion supply unit which gets its supplies from the brigade supply unit etc. like a tree structure or a pyramid if you will. But at the top of all that is the front. And someone has to supply that front. That's where the independent supply units I am talking about come in. It's the units that actually bring those supplies to the tip of the pyramid. The ones on the outside.

It's the units that are so high up the chain that they are NOT grouped in with combat units. And my question is how many fronts I need before the number of these units grows so much that the only way to coordinate them is to start grouping them into an entire parallel chain of command up until such a point where you actually have actual supply armies.

There will always be larger formations and army groups (by which I mean the Russian collection of Fronts) will become more numerous - you still don't need a literal Army of logistical personnel.

Calling it an Army would be slightly odd, since it's obviously not going to be laid out in the same manner as a more regular combatant or administrative formation. I can see no use for 100,000 or more logistical personnel in the same unit, no matter how many Fronts or Army Groups you have. It's just maddeningly bloated.
100,000 logistical personnel in the logistical corps? Yes, of course you would. Because they're distributed amongst combat arms formations as subordinate units.

[Imperializt Russia]

Us logistics during WW2 were all grouped within their combat units.

European theater of operations was a combat formation.

But there has to have been some sort of logistics unit outside of that feeding into the European theater of operations. Unless the troops are growing their own food and directly buying bullets out of factories there has to be someone on the outside providing this.

Yes.
It's called the American Government.

[Purpelia]

Yes.
It's called the American Government.

So it was completely disorganized and just done with what ever truck or train was available without forming any sort of cohesive structure?

There will always be larger formations and army groups (by which I mean the Russian collection of Fronts) will become more numerous - you still don't need a literal Army of logistical personnel.

Calling it an Army would be slightly odd, since it's obviously not going to be laid out in the same manner as a more regular combatant or administrative formation. I can see no use for 100,000 or more logistical personnel in the same unit, no matter how many Fronts or Army Groups you have. It's just maddeningly bloated.
100,000 logistical personnel in the logistical corps? Yes, of course you would. Because they're distributed amongst combat arms formations as subordinate units.

But say you were to conscript the equivalent of several billion men. Surely than you'd have to have some maddeningly large supply units to supply maddeningly large fighting units.

Hell, forget everything I said. Just assume we scale fighting units up linearly. Armies give way to Army Groups who give way to Fronts who give way to what-ever-XYZ. At some point that XYZ is going to be large enough to have its subordinate supply army just as it has subordinate Group-of-Groups-of-Groups-of-Front-Groups of fighting units.

[Husseinarti]

Yes.
It's called the American Government.

So it was completely disorganized and just done with what ever truck or train was available without forming any sort of cohesive structure?

There will always be larger formations and army groups (by which I mean the Russian collection of Fronts) will become more numerous - you still don't need a literal Army of logistical personnel.

Calling it an Army would be slightly odd, since it's obviously not going to be laid out in the same manner as a more regular combatant or administrative formation. I can see no use for 100,000 or more logistical personnel in the same unit, no matter how many Fronts or Army Groups you have. It's just maddeningly bloated.
100,000 logistical personnel in the logistical corps? Yes, of course you would. Because they're distributed amongst combat arms formations as subordinate units.

But say you were to conscript the equivalent of several billion men. Surely than you'd have to have some maddeningly large supply units to supply maddeningly large fighting units.

Hell, forget everything I said. Just assume we scale fighting units up linearly. Armies give way to Army Groups who give way to Fronts who give way to what-ever-XYZ. At some point that XYZ is going to be large enough to have its subordinate supply army just as it has subordinate Group-of-Groups-of-Groups-of-Front-Groups of fighting units.

Just fucking Google it.

[Elan Valleys]

Yes.
It's called the American Government.

So it was completely disorganized and just done with what ever truck or train was available without forming any sort of cohesive structure?

There will always be larger formations and army groups (by which I mean the Russian collection of Fronts) will become more numerous - you still don't need a literal Army of logistical personnel.

Calling it an Army would be slightly odd, since it's obviously not going to be laid out in the same manner as a more regular combatant or administrative formation. I can see no use for 100,000 or more logistical personnel in the same unit, no matter how many Fronts or Army Groups you have. It's just maddeningly bloated.
100,000 logistical personnel in the logistical corps? Yes, of course you would. Because they're distributed amongst combat arms formations as subordinate units.

But say you were to conscript the equivalent of several billion men. Surely than you'd have to have some maddeningly large supply units to supply maddeningly large fighting units.

Hell, forget everything I said. Just assume we scale fighting units up linearly. Armies give way to Army Groups who give way to Fronts who give way to what-ever-XYZ. At some point that XYZ is going to be large enough to have its subordinate supply army just as it has subordinate Group-of-Groups-of-Groups-of-Front-Groups of fighting units.

XYZ would consist of the Ministry of Defence.

[Purpelia]

XYZ would consist of the Ministry of Defence.

Does it matter? The name the tree graph node does not matter when observing the observation of its attached subbranch. If the ministry of defense has to coordinate 10²⁴ people split into military units they aren't going to be doing it any differently than if it was any other military HQ that happened to actually have someone above them.

Military formations as a rule are fractal tree graphs. They tend to operate similarly on all levels. They tend to be split into the same numbers of subunits with the same ratios between them. That's why we can for example look at a platoon mortar and conclude that somewhere along the line upward there will be an artillery battery. And we can know roughly at which level it is going to be as well since we can assume a similar proportion of fighting units to artillery support and use math. So by that logic there will come a point where there is a unit large enough that its subunit tasked with logistics will happen to be army sized.

[Elan Valleys]

XYZ would consist of the Ministry of Defence.

Does it matter? The name the tree graph node does not matter when observing the observation of its attached subbranch. If the ministry of defense has to coordinate 10²⁴ people split into military units they aren't going to be doing it any differently than if it was any other military HQ that happened to actually have someone above them.

Military formations as a rule are fractal tree graphs. They tend to operate similarly on all levels. They tend to be split into the same numbers of subunits with the same ratios between them. That's why we can for example look at a platoon mortar and conclude that somewhere along the line upward there will be an artillery battery. So by that logic there will come a point where there is a unit large enough that its subunit tasked with logistics will happen to be army sized.

The next step that you're talking about is the civil servants ordering the factory to deliver materiel.