Infantry Discussion Thread 6: True Korea Edition

[Fordorsia]

ew no

ROFL why you no like mad sort of irish welder fabricators making silly "weapons"?

Because it's really really stupid. Fuck dat

[Aqizithiuda]

7.92mm rounds already exist.

13mm offers very little advantages of 12.7mm. With the major advantage being "durrr i'm a speshul snowflake"

I know 7.92mm rounds exist, but they're mostly for hunting and are pretty much copies of the 7.92mm Mauser round. Not very modern at all.

13mm was just because German guns.

The 7.92mm Mauser might be old, but the Germans got things right. The only way you could improve it would be to use modern powders and a higher pressure to increase MV.

[New Visegrad]

I'm not saying Ford's too lazy to do something it took me all of 45 minutes to do, but that is exactly what I'm saying

It's not that I'm too lazy to do it. It's that it's a bad sword design that doesn't interest me. I can't really draw it in my own style ifI don't know what to do with it.

It's a bad sword design if you look at it from the point of view of a human medieval soldier, but you should be looking at it from the point of view of an 8-foot heavyworlder who plans to use it to end large and aggressive animals.

The Epechi never did the "cohesive geographically-static nation-state" thing, so pitched warfare was never part of their culture. Their weapons did not evolve to defeat armour or parry similar weapons, but to put enough mass behind the blade to make a good hit something a large predator would be scared of. The Dearst Jesyyr isn't a fencing sword, it's a 75%-sword/25%-shield weapon you can use to block claw swipes and behead monsters. Or staple them to the ground. It's not supposed to deflect sword thrusts or pikes because nobody was coming at it with swords or pikes.

[Ulfr-Reich]

I know 7.92mm rounds exist, but they're mostly for hunting and are pretty much copies of the 7.92mm Mauser round. Not very modern at all.

13mm was just because German guns.

The 7.92mm Mauser might be old, but the Germans got things right. The only way you could improve it would be to use modern powders and a higher pressure to increase MV.

Do you know what round needs a bit of love? .35 Remington; it's a gorgeous cartridge, and capable of some pretty awesome stuff.

Plus, the original production cartridges are fuckin' mean.

[Purpelia]

Just for the record. The chopping spear I was talking about yesterday that you were all against is a real thing. It's called a glave. And it's a real historical weapon in Europe. The only difference is that with my blade shape I'd have a double edged one.

[Ulfr-Reich]

Just for the record. The chopping spear I was talking about yesterday that you were all against is a real thing. It's called a glave. And it's a real historical weapon in Europe. The only difference is that with my blade shape I'd have a double edged one.

so, just, like, legitimately large-chopping bit on a haft-scaled spearhead?

Fuckit, go for it.

[Aqizithiuda]

It's not that I'm too lazy to do it. It's that it's a bad sword design that doesn't interest me. I can't really draw it in my own style ifI don't know what to do with it.

It's a bad sword design if you look at it from the point of view of a human medieval soldier, but you should be looking at it from the point of view of an 8-foot heavyworlder who plans to use it to end large and aggressive animals.

The Epechi never did the "cohesive geographically-static nation-state" thing, so pitched warfare was never part of their culture. Their weapons did not evolve to defeat armour or parry similar weapons, but to put enough mass behind the blade to make a good hit something a large predator would be scared of. The Dearst Jesyyr isn't a fencing sword, it's a 75%-sword/25%-shield weapon you can use to block claw swipes and behead monsters. Or staple them to the ground. It's not supposed to deflect sword thrusts or pikes because nobody was coming at it with swords or pikes.

To be honest, having an actual shield and then a separate sword makes more sense, and weaponising a shield makes more sense than turning a sword into a shield.

[New Visegrad]

It's a bad sword design if you look at it from the point of view of a human medieval soldier, but you should be looking at it from the point of view of an 8-foot heavyworlder who plans to use it to end large and aggressive animals.

The Epechi never did the "cohesive geographically-static nation-state" thing, so pitched warfare was never part of their culture. Their weapons did not evolve to defeat armour or parry similar weapons, but to put enough mass behind the blade to make a good hit something a large predator would be scared of. The Dearst Jesyyr isn't a fencing sword, it's a 75%-sword/25%-shield weapon you can use to block claw swipes and behead monsters. Or staple them to the ground. It's not supposed to deflect sword thrusts or pikes because nobody was coming at it with swords or pikes.

To be honest, having an actual shield and then a separate sword makes more sense, and weaponising a shield makes more sense than turning a sword into a shield.

Did you see the picture? It's not actually a shield. It doesn't have any shield components. It's just wider than your average sword. It's a question of purpose more than actually being a shield in the technical sense.
Some Epechi do carry shields as well (or did, rather - this is an outdated weapon now as they've had firearms for a few centuries and are now spacegoing), but those are typically used by riders with lances rather than with Dearst Jesyyrs, the logic being that if you don't have the advantage of height, you'll need to use both hands to put enough force behind the sword (as well as having a hand free for mobility, which is essential when 1v1ing a creature similar to an enraged bear). Unless you're a total badass and can swing a two-handed greatsword like a regular one-hander.

The main advantage of a true shield is that it's solid, which is great for blocking sword thrusts and arrows, but just adds weight when you're blocking something that couldn't reach through the gaps anyway.

[Aqizithiuda]

To be honest, having an actual shield and then a separate sword makes more sense, and weaponising a shield makes more sense than turning a sword into a shield.

Did you see the picture? It's not actually a shield. It doesn't have any shield components. It's just wider than your average sword. It's a question of purpose more than actually being a shield in the technical sense.
Some Epechi do carry shields as well (or did, rather - this is an outdated weapon now as they've had firearms for a few centuries and are now spacegoing), but those are typically used by riders with lances rather than with Dearst Jesyyrs, the logic being that if you don't have the advantage of height, you'll need to use both hands to put enough force behind the sword (as well as having a hand free for mobility, which is essential when 1v1ing a creature similar to an enraged bear). Unless you're a total badass and can swing a two-handed greatsword like a regular one-hander.

The main advantage of a true shield is that it's solid, which is great for blocking sword thrusts and arrows, but just adds weight when you're blocking something that couldn't reach through the gaps anyway.

Those gaps are great for claws to get hooked in or limbs tangled in and the sword ripped from the user's grasp.

[Fordorsia]

Just for the record. The chopping spear I was talking about yesterday that you were all against is a real thing. It's called a glave. And it's a real historical weapon in Europe. The only difference is that with my blade shape I'd have a double edged one.

Glave, Glaive

Real glaives had long sockets and/or langets for good reason, so make sure yours does too. Making it double edged will just make it worse at thrusting and heavier, unless you simply sharpen the spine and don't double the width of the blade.

It's not that I'm too lazy to do it. It's that it's a bad sword design that doesn't interest me. I can't really draw it in my own style ifI don't know what to do with it.

It's a bad sword design if you look at it from the point of view of a human medieval soldier, but you should be looking at it from the point of view of an 8-foot heavyworlder who plans to use it to end large and aggressive animals.

The Epechi never did the "cohesive geographically-static nation-state" thing, so pitched warfare was never part of their culture. Their weapons did not evolve to defeat armour or parry similar weapons, but to put enough mass behind the blade to make a good hit something a large predator would be scared of. The Dearst Jesyyr isn't a fencing sword, it's a 75%-sword/25%-shield weapon you can use to block claw swipes and behead monsters. Or staple them to the ground. It's not supposed to deflect sword thrusts or pikes because nobody was coming at it with swords or pikes.

For killing a large animal, a sword, regardless of origin, would either be a rather narrow, rigid thruster used by a very accurate hand, or a no nonesense chopper. Your blade is too short and isn't the right shape for either.

Try take inspiration from asshole bullfighters. What they do doesn't cause a quick death, but the way they deliver their thrusts would be very useful for a large animal that doesn't pounce on you and eat your head.

[Purpelia]

Real glaives had long sockets and/or langets for good reason, so make sure yours does too. Making it double edged will just make it worse at thrusting and heavier, unless you simply sharpen the spine and don't double the width of the blade.

Basically my plan now is to make what you'd call a sword bladed spear. As in a spear with a sword like blade. Those did exist historically and were akin to glaves. Thrusting with them is still an option but with their shorter handles and chopping blades they are a cutting weapon primarily, much like a large axe.

Here is an image. Pictures 1 and 2 are random off a google search and scaling is based on shaft diameter.

I am not too happy with the blade shape. It's meant to be a bit thinner and more leaf shaped. Right now it's way too massive. But I could not be bothered to go into such detail for a quick preview like this.

[New Visegrad]

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not trying to claim this is the best sword ever. It's a sword, used by Epechi from one area of an entire planet. It worked to a great enough degree that it became a "signature" weapon of that region, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Perhaps it worked well for that area because the locals had exceptional upper body strength, or because the local species of giant angry alien bear/cat had shorter claws than elsewhere.
Other areas chose spears as their defense. Some used fucking massive longbows. Those in forested areas developed their weapons from heavy axes.
The point is this is a unique weapon created by a species completely lacking the intense focus on warfare that characterized most of human history. There was no arms race. Weapons development was limited to "can this kill large predators? yes? ok cool" for all but the last few hundred years of their history, and that only changed because someone finally got around to landing a spaceship on their planet. It's not the only weapon they ever made, or even the best. It's not something every Epechi had, or even most of them. It's recognizable, and it did what it was supposed to, and that was enough for the designer. If there had been greater pressure to make a perfect weapon, as there was for humans, perhaps it would have ended up with a thinner, solid blade. Perhaps it would never have been designed in the first place. It just worked out differently for the Epechi.
It became popular offworld because of its unique shape, but popular in the sense that it was generally purchased by people with lots of money but no intention of actually using the sword. Nobody bought it for their armies or licensed the design. It's an artefact of an alien culture, a product of a prolonged technological stagnation that just never happened for us.

It's also a great way of scaring the shit out of people, because when you put a heavyworlder in a lower-gravity environment they can absolutely use a Dearst Jesyyr like a rapier.

[Fordorsia]

Real glaives had long sockets and/or langets for good reason, so make sure yours does too. Making it double edged will just make it worse at thrusting and heavier, unless you simply sharpen the spine and don't double the width of the blade.

Basically my plan now is to make what you'd call a sword bladed spear. As in a spear with a sword like blade. Those did exist historically and were akin to glaves. Thrusting with them is still an option but with their shorter handles and chopping blades they are a cutting weapon primarily, much like a large axe.

Here is an image. Pictures 1 and 2 are random off a google search and scaling is based on shaft diameter.

I am not too happy with the blade shape. It's meant to be a bit thinner and more leaf shaped. Right now it's way too massive. But I could not be bothered to go into such detail for a quick preview like this.

I'm not convinced the double edge in that manner would be much of a good thing, but hey, it's good to have some drawbacks so it wuld be fine to use it.

You could have something like this. That way you'd have a proper chopping blade rather than having the weight at the rear of the blade where you're least likely to hit with, but still have good thrusting ability.


Also a neato pdf on a composite Gladius hilt

[Purpelia]

I'm not convinced the double edge in that manner would be much of a good thing, but hey, it's good to have some drawbacks so it wuld be fine to use it.

I am a fan of double edged weapons for a number of reasons. They give you more flexibility and that is something you want. Especially with a weapon that is long enough that you can't just swing it round 360 when you need to make a swipe.

You could have something like this. That way you'd have a proper chopping blade rather than having the weight at the rear of the blade where you're least likely to hit with, but still have good thrusting ability.

That's about it, yes. I want something a bit more leaf shaped to focus the mass at the chopping part but that's the general idea. Basically google "leaf bladed sword".

[Fordorsia]

I'm not convinced the double edge in that manner would be much of a good thing, but hey, it's good to have some drawbacks so it wuld be fine to use it.

I am a fan of double edged weapons for a number of reasons. They give you more flexibility and that is something you want. Especially with a weapon that is long enough that you can't just swing it round 360 when you need to make a swipe.

You could have something like this. That way you'd have a proper chopping blade rather than having the weight at the rear of the blade where you're least likely to hit with, but still have good thrusting ability.

That's about it, yes. I want something a bit more leaf shaped to focus the mass at the chopping part but that's the general idea.

Oh double edged weapons are great. It just wouldn't be too good having it that broad.

[Purpelia]

I am a fan of double edged weapons for a number of reasons. They give you more flexibility and that is something you want. Especially with a weapon that is long enough that you can't just swing it round 360 when you need to make a swipe.


That's about it, yes. I want something a bit more leaf shaped to focus the mass at the chopping part but that's the general idea.

Oh double edged weapons are great. It just wouldn't be too good having it that broad.

Yea, the broadness is just an artifact of the fact that it's not a drawing but a quick 5 minute edit of the glave image. I literally took more time arranging the three than I did making the Purpelian Glave.

[Fordorsia]

Oh double edged weapons are great. It just wouldn't be too good having it that broad.

Yea, the broadness is just an artifact of the fact that it's not a drawing but a quick 5 minute edit of the glave image. I literally took more time arranging the three than I did making the Purpelian Glave.

You could have the belly in the centre of the blade. Then you'd have an even better balance between chop and thrust without it being too large or heavy. Northern Europe used blades like that for centuries. Like this, and you could even double the size to get it to the size of a glaive's blade.

Also it wouldn't be a gaive once you make it double edged. It would be a cut and thrust spear.

[Purpelia]

You could have the belly in the centre of the blade. Then you'd have an even better balance between chop and thrust without it being too large or heavy. Northern Europe used blades like that for centuries. Like this, and you could even double the size to get it to the size of a glaive's blade.

I'll figure the blade shape out eventually (or not, depending on if I want to draw this or just describe it in text).

Also it wouldn't be a gaive once you make it double edged. It would be a cut and thrust spear.

Honestly I think the nomenclature is related to use more than blade shape. A glave is a cutting and chopping weapon with a secondary thrust function like a dane axe where as a cut and thrust spear is a primarily thrusting weapon with situational cutting ability. So there are a number of difference that will come of that such as socket length and indeed shaft length which I feel are more important than how many edges it has. So this is definitively a glave or at least glave-like weapon as opposed to a spear.

In fact, you'd probably end up dead if you tried to use it as a spear as it has a relatively short reach by comparison and really takes two hands to use.

[Fordorsia]

You could have the belly in the centre of the blade. Then you'd have an even better balance between chop and thrust without it being too large or heavy. Northern Europe used blades like that for centuries. Like this, and you could even double the size to get it to the size of a glaive's blade.

I'll figure the blade shape out eventually (or not, depending on if I want to draw this or just describe it in text).

Also it wouldn't be a gaive once you make it double edged. It would be a cut and thrust spear.

Honestly I think the nomenclature is related to use more than blade shape. A glave is a cutting and chopping weapon with a secondary thrust function like a dane axe where as a cut and thrust spear is a primarily thrusting weapon with situational cutting ability. So there are a number of difference that will come of that such as socket length and indeed shaft length which I feel are more important than how many edges it has. So this is definitively a glave or at least glave-like weapon as opposed to a spear.

In fact, you'd probably end up dead if you tried to use it as a spear as it has a relatively short reach by comparison and really takes two hands to use.

Short spears can be very deadly up close because of how easy they are to move. It's the same half-swording just with having an actual grip near the point. Depending on how short it is and the time period, you could even put a guard on it like so, or if you want a real wild time, like so.

[Crookfur]

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not trying to claim this is the best sword ever. It's a sword, used by Epechi from one area of an entire planet. It worked to a great enough degree that it became a "signature" weapon of that region, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Perhaps it worked well for that area because the locals had exceptional upper body strength, or because the local species of giant angry alien bear/cat had shorter claws than elsewhere.
Other areas chose spears as their defense. Some used fucking massive longbows. Those in forested areas developed their weapons from heavy axes.
The point is this is a unique weapon created by a species completely lacking the intense focus on warfare that characterized most of human history. There was no arms race. Weapons development was limited to "can this kill large predators? yes? ok cool" for all but the last few hundred years of their history, and that only changed because someone finally got around to landing a spaceship on their planet. It's not the only weapon they ever made, or even the best. It's not something every Epechi had, or even most of them. It's recognizable, and it did what it was supposed to, and that was enough for the designer. If there had been greater pressure to make a perfect weapon, as there was for humans, perhaps it would have ended up with a thinner, solid blade. Perhaps it would never have been designed in the first place. It just worked out differently for the Epechi.
It became popular offworld because of its unique shape, but popular in the sense that it was generally purchased by people with lots of money but no intention of actually using the sword. Nobody bought it for their armies or licensed the design. It's an artefact of an alien culture, a product of a prolonged technological stagnation that just never happened for us.

It's also a great way of scaring the shit out of people, because when you put a heavyworlder in a lower-gravity environment they can absolutely use a Dearst Jesyyr like a rapier.

The thing is it's so fancy, complicated and exceptionally difficult to make (to the point of almost being almost impossible for a pre industrial setting without stuff like plasma cutters) that it makes a mockery of most the above justifications.

If it's simply a big blade to hunt big ass beasts then smiths are going to put out very simple solid blades possibly leaf shaped.

The only way such an blade style would make even the slightest sense is if it has really deep and strong religious or cultural reasons behind it that out weight all practicality and even such a sword is only going to affordable to the most powerful/richest familys/individuals.

Honestly it would almost make the most sense for such a blade to have been inspired by a prehistoric off world visitor ancient aliens style.

[Fordorsia]

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not trying to claim this is the best sword ever. It's a sword, used by Epechi from one area of an entire planet. It worked to a great enough degree that it became a "signature" weapon of that region, but that doesn't mean it's perfect. Perhaps it worked well for that area because the locals had exceptional upper body strength, or because the local species of giant angry alien bear/cat had shorter claws than elsewhere.
Other areas chose spears as their defense. Some used fucking massive longbows. Those in forested areas developed their weapons from heavy axes.
The point is this is a unique weapon created by a species completely lacking the intense focus on warfare that characterized most of human history. There was no arms race. Weapons development was limited to "can this kill large predators? yes? ok cool" for all but the last few hundred years of their history, and that only changed because someone finally got around to landing a spaceship on their planet. It's not the only weapon they ever made, or even the best. It's not something every Epechi had, or even most of them. It's recognizable, and it did what it was supposed to, and that was enough for the designer. If there had been greater pressure to make a perfect weapon, as there was for humans, perhaps it would have ended up with a thinner, solid blade. Perhaps it would never have been designed in the first place. It just worked out differently for the Epechi.
It became popular offworld because of its unique shape, but popular in the sense that it was generally purchased by people with lots of money but no intention of actually using the sword. Nobody bought it for their armies or licensed the design. It's an artefact of an alien culture, a product of a prolonged technological stagnation that just never happened for us.

It's also a great way of scaring the shit out of people, because when you put a heavyworlder in a lower-gravity environment they can absolutely use a Dearst Jesyyr like a rapier.

The thing is it's so fancy, complicated and exceptionally difficult to make (to the point of almost being almost impossible for a pre industrial setting without stuff like plasma cutters) that it makes a mockery of most the above justifications.

If it's simply a big blade to hunt big ass beasts then smiths are going to put out very simple solid blades possibly leaf shaped.

The only way such an blade style would make even the slightest sense is if it has really deep and strong religious or cultural reasons behind it that out weight all practicality and even such a sword is only going to affordable to the most powerful/richest familys/individuals.

Honestly it would almost make the most sense for such a blade to have been inspired by a prehistoric off world visitor ancient aliens style.

Even if it was ceremonial or religious etc, it would still need practical roots. Weapons like that evolved from actual tools or weapons. I'm pretty certain no civilization would develop and use such a design at all let alone long enough for it to be a part of culture.


Also I think this thing is done

[Purpelia]

Short spears can be very deadly up close because of how easy they are to move. It's the same half-swording just with having an actual grip near the point. Depending on how short it is and the time period, you could even put a guard on it like so, or if you want a real wild time, like so.

They'd still suck if you tried to use them as a period spear though. As in, in a shield wall poking at another shield wall.

The way I envision using these is actually interesting though. Basically it's back to the mercenary formations I mentioned. Due to the relatively low manpower of battles in those days what you'd see is a phalanx 4-6 rows deep and 8-10 men wide. The body of the formation would use pikes. The front row would also have shields strapped to their arms to deflect javelins and the like. Now, standing on the sides of these formations would be a row of shield equipped glave users. Again using strapped shields they'd serve to protect the flanks of the formation from assault. So they would be fighting against people trying to hit the formation close up with swords and axes and stuff.

The use of strapped shields is what would set these soldiers apart from the rest of my armies, in particular the various levees who would use regular center grip shields. The primary reason of course is to allow them to use both hands to hold the weapon.

[Radicchio]

what are the most :80s: firearms I can possibly use

putting together a team of greased up men and leotarded women to hunt down an ex-nazi in the jungles of padnak

Only proper '80s shotgun right here.

Totally not true...

SPAS-12 won the 80s.

[New Visegrad]

The thing is it's so fancy, complicated and exceptionally difficult to make (to the point of almost being almost impossible for a pre industrial setting without stuff like plasma cutters) that it makes a mockery of most the above justifications.

If it's simply a big blade to hunt big ass beasts then smiths are going to put out very simple solid blades possibly leaf shaped.

The only way such an blade style would make even the slightest sense is if it has really deep and strong religious or cultural reasons behind it that out weight all practicality and even such a sword is only going to affordable to the most powerful/richest familys/individuals.

Honestly it would almost make the most sense for such a blade to have been inspired by a prehistoric off world visitor ancient aliens style.

It's still a one-piece blade that can be made using a mould. It's more complex than a simple sword, yes, but those do also exist. The idea of this sword from the start has been that it's a "masterwork" weapon that was only ever produced by master smiths in one particular area, until high-tech nanofacturing was introduced, which wasn't long before the planet the area was located on became a casualty of war and the point became moot.
Its design is partially ceremonial. There is significance attached to a sword that might be passed down through generations. It's not like a military sword where you just want something that is clean and simple and disposable. This is something you'd send out a search party to recover if the guy carrying it was too slow on the parry. The technology at the heart of it may have been simple but ornate and complicated decoration was common.

The Epechi never had a warrior culture, but protection against predators was still an important role (though it was seen differently to human culture - a skilled fighter wouldn't be praised in terms of creatures slain but in terms of times they'd saved the caravan). A family would have a deep attachment to a weapon like this. Great care would be put into its making and maintenance, and it would be expected to last a long time.
The expense of the weapon also worked a bit differently. A caravan would have a smith whose job was to produce tools and such, and in exchange the warriors would protect them and the foragers and farmers would feed them. A family that made a great contribution to the caravan would be given gifts in return, and in the case of a martial contribution the gifts might include a Dearst Jesyyr for their best fighter.

It is certainly possible the design was inspired by offworld influences, since the Epechi were too loosely scattered at the time to have any useful permanent record-keeping. It's more likely it was modelled after the appearance of a starship or drone than a sword, though - the only people landing on Epechi Prime would have been scavengers and explorers, carrying firearms rather than swords.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

You know what else heavy worlders could use like a rapier?