Infantry Discussion Thread 6: True Korea Edition

[Crookfur]

god thats a stupidly heavily loaded squad and a total misunderstanding of what engineers are for...


With only 6 people i would go:

TL (proabably having a UGL)
MG
Grenadier
Rocketman/assaultman
2x rifleman


No earthly need for .338 lapua at squad/section level, carrying a rifle and a fancy pants grenade rifle must be a bitch and only the TL/SL needs smoke.

As for the rest just ditch it.

Engineers (or more accuractly pioneers if they are part of an infantry battalion) would just be your infantry squad with a bunch more tools, mines and explosives in the wagon

I didn't really know what to call the second squad so I just went with "engineers". I'll rename them pioneers or "anti-tank and demolitions" squad if you want.

The heavy load is to make up for the smaller squad size and is alleviated by the fact that the soldiers are fighting from IFVs and are not hiking 20+ miles with all their combat gear.

.338 lapua is to provide quasi-anti materiel capability as well as the capability to penetrate heavy cover and body armor at extended range. In a jungle it might not be useful but in urban environments or in mountainous terrain it seems it would be useful.

I would just get rid of that bit entirely as all the "loadouts" and roles in are ludicrously silly.

Modern armies already fight from ifvs and don't carry loads that over the top.
.338 Lapua brings nothing to an infantry section that only has to reach out to 600 - 800m at the very most. Anything worth a .338 shot is likely best left to the ifv.

A long range precision rifle is a tool for specialist snipers who aren't really going to make any kind of appearance below battalion level. Giving one of your riflemen version of the standard rifle with a nice barrel, match trigger and a slightly better precision scope will give your section as much precision rifle capability as it needs.

[Aqizithiuda]

Estovnia is just being a pain. Ignore her. RL weapons are fair game.

You never answered my 6.5 Grendel question

140gr Berger VLD. Read it and weep.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Curious.

[EsToVnIa]

You never answered my 6.5 Grendel question

140gr Berger VLD. Read it and weep.

Yeah, I know 6.5 Grendel is optimized for longer range

Edit: I was asking more about 6.8SPC since it's more for shorter range engagements than 6.5 grendel

[Aqizithiuda]

140gr Berger VLD. Read it and weep.

Yeah, I know 6.5 Grendel is optimized for longer range

Edit: I was asking more about 6.8SPC since it's more for shorter range engagements than 6.5 grendel

SSA. Blended powder. 58 000 PSI. 2400 ft/s. 2.3" OAL. 140gr Berger VLD.

[Yukonastan]

Yeah, I know 6.5 Grendel is optimized for longer range

Edit: I was asking more about 6.8SPC since it's more for shorter range engagements than 6.5 grendel

SSA. Blended powder. 58 000 PSI. 2400 ft/s. 2.3" OAL. 140gr Berger VLD.

Aqi, could you run a cartridge?

Lessay I had a 40mm Bofors cartridge, but I fired a saboted 24mm projectile out of it. By your best estimate, how much velocity will it retain compared to a full-bore projectile?

Thanks!

[Aqizithiuda]

SSA. Blended powder. 58 000 PSI. 2400 ft/s. 2.3" OAL. 140gr Berger VLD.

Aqi, could you run a cartridge?

Lessay I had a 40mm Bofors cartridge, but I fired a saboted 24mm projectile out of it. By your best estimate, how much velocity will it retain compared to a full-bore projectile?

Thanks!

Nothing I have will do that calculation, but you're probably looking at 1200-1300 m/s.

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

I would just get rid of that bit entirely as all the "loadouts" and roles in are ludicrously silly.

Modern armies already fight from ifvs and don't carry loads that over the top.
.338 Lapua brings nothing to an infantry section that only has to reach out to 600 - 800m at the very most. Anything worth a .338 shot is likely best left to the ifv.

A long range precision rifle is a tool for specialist snipers who aren't really going to make any kind of appearance below battalion level. Giving one of your riflemen version of the standard rifle with a nice barrel, match trigger and a slightly better precision scope will give your section as much precision rifle capability as it needs.

Then who should carry heavy antitank weapons and anti-materiel rifles? I'd like to issue those at the company or even platoon level to provide low-level infantry units with the capability to engage helicopters and MBTs at extended range.

I'm not getting rid of the squad level 338. At 600-800 meters the .338 provides invaluable penetrative power in comparison to the 6.5mm grendel. An IFV with its 30mm cannons at ATGMs is complete overkill for targeting individual enemy combatants with heavy body armor or in heavy cover at long range, something the 338 is ideal for.

[Doppio Giudici]

.338 is overkill for anything that is human.

Seriously, 7.62x51 or 54 is more suitable for a platoon marksmen, or if you're crazy a squad marksmen.

[Black Hand]

I would just get rid of that bit entirely as all the "loadouts" and roles in are ludicrously silly.

Modern armies already fight from ifvs and don't carry loads that over the top.
.338 Lapua brings nothing to an infantry section that only has to reach out to 600 - 800m at the very most. Anything worth a .338 shot is likely best left to the ifv.

A long range precision rifle is a tool for specialist snipers who aren't really going to make any kind of appearance below battalion level. Giving one of your riflemen version of the standard rifle with a nice barrel, match trigger and a slightly better precision scope will give your section as much precision rifle capability as it needs.

Then who should carry heavy antitank weapons and anti-materiel rifles? I'd like to issue those at the company or even platoon level to provide low-level infantry units with the capability to engage helicopters and MBTs at extended range.

I'm not getting rid of the squad level 338. At 600-800 meters the .338 provides invaluable penetrative power in comparison to the 6.5mm grendel. An IFV with its 30mm cannons at ATGMs is complete overkill for targeting individual enemy combatants with heavy body armor or in heavy cover at long range, something the 338 is ideal for.

.338 is overkill. If an infantry unit is engaging at 600-800m that is the realm of a MMG and that's what you should be using go with 7.62x54R or if you must be spezial farces use something like 9.3x64 for a little more punch but for the sake of all that's holy get rid of the sniper grade weapons at squad level. They're useless you don't encounter "enemys with heavy body armor" IRL and with that a MMG will be superior in every aspect to a "sniper rifle" against a enemy infantry unit and provide excellent support at closer ranges as well.

I simply issue a 7.62x55 marksman to each squad and he shares his cartridge with the squad automatic gunners and the platoons MMg's

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

.338 is overkill. If an infantry unit is engaging at 600-800m that is the realm of a MMG and that's what you should be using go with 7.62x54R or if you must be spezial farces use something like 9.3x64 for a little more punch but for the sake of all that's holy get rid of the sniper grade weapons at squad level. They're useless you don't encounter "enemys with heavy body armor" IRL and with that a MMG will be superior in every aspect to a "sniper rifle" against a enemy infantry unit and provide excellent support at closer ranges as well.

I simply issue a 7.62x55 marksman to each squad and he shares his cartridge with the squad automatic gunners and the platoons MMg's

Here's my revision:

Basic Infantry Squad:

Command Fireteam:

Squad Leader:
SCAR 6.5 + Elcan Spectre+AN/PEQ-15+FLIR T70
16x 24 round 6.5mm magazines
USP 45 tactical
4x12 round .45 magazines
2x m67 frag grenade
2x m18 smoke grenade
L-3 GPNVG-18
FLIR Recon BN10 Thermal Binocular
Exelis SINCGARS RT-1523G


MG gunner
Mk. 48 (6.5mm) + Specter m145+AN/PEQ-15+FLIR T70
4x150 round 6.5mm belts
USP 45 tactical
4x12 round .45 magazines
4x m67 frag grenade
L-3 GPNVG-18


Grenadier
SCAR 6.5 + Elcan Spectre+AN/PEQ-15+FLIR T70
10x 24 round 6.5mm magazines
XM25 CTDE
6x 4 round 25mm magazines
4x m67 frag grenade
L-3 GPNVG-18

Support Fireteam

Rifleman (second in command)
SCAR 6.5 + Elcan Spectre+AN/PEQ-15+FLIR T70
16x 24 round 6.5mm magazines
2x m67 frag grenade
2x m18 smoke grenade
L-3 GPNVG-18


AT Rifleman
SCAR 6.5 + Elcan Spectre+AN/PEQ-15+FLIR T70
10x 24 round 6.5mm magazines
Panzerfaust 3
3 tandem-charge HEAT warheads
2 bunker buster warheads
4x m67 frag grenade
L-3 GPNVG-18

MG gunner
Mk. 48 (6.5mm) + Specter m145+AN/PEQ-15+FLIR T70
4x150 round 6.5mm belts
USP 45 tactical
4x12 round .45 magazines
4x m67 frag grenade
L-3 GPNVG-18

[EsToVnIa]

All you need is just this:

SL: rifle
Gunner: GPMG
Grenadier: XM25
SiC: rifle
AT: Rifle w/ PzF 3
Gunner: GPMG

the rest is really unnecessary and a waste to write out.

Edit: two gimpies wat

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

All you need is just this:

SL: rifle
Gunner: GPMG
Grenadier: XM25
SiC: rifle
AT: Rifle w/ PzF 3
Gunner: GPMG

the rest is really unnecessary and a waste to write out.

Edit: two gimpies wat

I'd say the rest of the equipment like NVGs , gun mounted FLIR, and grenades are all pretty important,

Right now I'm debating whether or not I want to replace the m67 with a thermobaric hand grenade that would offer greater explosive power at the cost of fragmentation ability.

[EsToVnIa]

You'd think so, but ultimately the loadout of a single infantryman is irrelevant in RPing :/

[Black Hand]

All you need is just this:

SL: rifle
Gunner: GPMG
Grenadier: XM25
SiC: rifle
AT: Rifle w/ PzF 3
Gunner: GPMG

the rest is really unnecessary and a waste to write out.

Edit: two gimpies wat

Not terrible if you don't have any automatic riflemen. IIRC it wasn't uncommon for their to be two M249 gunners before they introduced the M27 (not that it really affected the issuing of said M249's)

[Imperializt Russia]

Seems like they were German military police.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feldgendarmerie

I guess an armband with the abbreviations isn't classy enough?

They only have two arms, one's already taken up by a swastika.

I would just get rid of that bit entirely as all the "loadouts" and roles in are ludicrously silly.

Modern armies already fight from ifvs and don't carry loads that over the top.
.338 Lapua brings nothing to an infantry section that only has to reach out to 600 - 800m at the very most. Anything worth a .338 shot is likely best left to the ifv.

A long range precision rifle is a tool for specialist snipers who aren't really going to make any kind of appearance below battalion level. Giving one of your riflemen version of the standard rifle with a nice barrel, match trigger and a slightly better precision scope will give your section as much precision rifle capability as it needs.

Then who should carry heavy antitank weapons and anti-materiel rifles? I'd like to issue those at the company or even platoon level to provide low-level infantry units with the capability to engage helicopters and MBTs at extended range.

I'm not getting rid of the squad level 338. At 600-800 meters the .338 provides invaluable penetrative power in comparison to the 6.5mm grendel. An IFV with its 30mm cannons at ATGMs is complete overkill for targeting individual enemy combatants with heavy body armor or in heavy cover at long range, something the 338 is ideal for.

Heavy anti-tank weapons are the preserve of the anti-tank platoon of the Battalion, or a higher-level (and larger) anti-tank formation. Anti-materiel rifles are the preserve of specialists such as EOD who will be attached at a high level of command, such as possibly Regiment, Brigade or Division.

The 30mm gun will be significantly more effective at engaging enemy infantry than a .338 rifle at the squad level. This 30mm gun should be used to harass enemy light and medium armoured vehicles, kill enemy thin-skin (truck, jeep) vehicles and suppress enemy infantry units. The 30mm gun will be capable of using HEI-T ammunition which will outrange enemy infantry by a kilometre or two and destroy prepared positions. Fortified positions will be dealt with by IFV ATGM.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

All you need is just this:

SL: rifle
Gunner: GPMG
Grenadier: XM25
SiC: rifle
AT: Rifle w/ PzF 3
Gunner: GPMG

the rest is really unnecessary and a waste to write out.

Edit: two gimpies wat

Not terrible if you don't have any automatic riflemen. IIRC it wasn't uncommon for their to be two M249 gunners before they introduced the M27 (not that it really affected the issuing of said M249's)

See what you really do is ditch the M16, and give everyone M240Gs and M27s.

[Imperializt Russia]

16 magazines each is also hilarious overkill. Mostly for space. Where are you going to put them? Somewhere you can't exactly reach them I bet, like deep within your March pack. In which case, it's just weight you can't use. The ten magazines your grenadier is issued is also really a lot. 240 rounds of ammunition itself isn't exactly problematic, but carrying them all in loaded magazines is. Completely unnecessary.

Carry 6 loaded magazines tops, and then the remainder of the ammunition in stripper clips to recharge those. Riflemen also need to carry ammunition for the machine gun.

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

16 magazines each is also hilarious overkill. Mostly for space. Where are you going to put them? Somewhere you can't exactly reach them I bet, like deep within your March pack. In which case, it's just weight you can't use. The ten magazines your grenadier is issued is also really a lot. 240 rounds of ammunition itself isn't exactly problematic, but carrying them all in loaded magazines is. Completely unnecessary.

Carry 6 loaded magazines tops, and then the remainder of the ammunition in stripper clips to recharge those. Riflemen also need to carry ammunition for the machine gun.

6 loaded magazines and you'd run out pretty quickly in any heavy firefight. 16 is perfectly reasonable. That's 8 magazine pouches each with 2 magazines. You could have 6 pouches on your plate carrier and 2 pouches on a drop leg rig.

[Vancon]

What's the difference between the M27 and an M4A1?

[Imperializt Russia]

16 magazines each is also hilarious overkill. Mostly for space. Where are you going to put them? Somewhere you can't exactly reach them I bet, like deep within your March pack. In which case, it's just weight you can't use. The ten magazines your grenadier is issued is also really a lot. 240 rounds of ammunition itself isn't exactly problematic, but carrying them all in loaded magazines is. Completely unnecessary.

Carry 6 loaded magazines tops, and then the remainder of the ammunition in stripper clips to recharge those. Riflemen also need to carry ammunition for the machine gun.

6 loaded magazines and you'd run out pretty quickly in any heavy firefight. 16 is perfectly reasonable. That's 8 magazine pouches each with 2 magazines. You could have 6 pouches on your plate carrier and 2 pouches on a drop leg rig.

What part of "the remainder of the ammunition in stripper clips to recharge those [six magazines]" are you not getting exactly?
16 loaded magazines is ludicrous. Sixteen magazine's worth of ammunition carried, less so.
10 magazines worth of ammunition carried is perfectly reasonable.

[EsToVnIa]

What's the difference between the M27 and an M4A1?

M27 is a M416

M4A1 is a M16

[Imperializt Russia]

What's the difference between the M27 and an M4A1?

Quite a bit, tbh.
Different action, different manufacturer, different role (allegedly).

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

6 loaded magazines and you'd run out pretty quickly in any heavy firefight. 16 is perfectly reasonable. That's 8 magazine pouches each with 2 magazines. You could have 6 pouches on your plate carrier and 2 pouches on a drop leg rig.

What part of "the remainder of the ammunition in stripper clips to recharge those [six magazines]" are you not getting exactly?
16 loaded magazines is ludicrous. Sixteen magazine's worth of ammunition carried, less so.
10 magazines worth of ammunition carried is perfectly reasonable.

That requires the soldier to stop what he's doing, unload his backpack, remove the stripper clips from his backpack, load the stripper clips into his empty magazines, put his pack back on, then continue firing.

As for weight a magpul E-mag weights around 0.30 pounds. 10 times that is 3 pounds. Is 3 pounds really a deal changer?

[Vancon]

What part of "the remainder of the ammunition in stripper clips to recharge those [six magazines]" are you not getting exactly?
16 loaded magazines is ludicrous. Sixteen magazine's worth of ammunition carried, less so.
10 magazines worth of ammunition carried is perfectly reasonable.

That requires the soldier to stop what he's doing, unload his backpack, remove the stripper clips from his backpack, load the stripper clips into his empty magazines, put his pack back on, then continue firing.

As for weight a magpul E-mag weights around 0.30 pounds. 10 times that is 3 pounds. Is 3 pounds really a deal changer?

On top of everything else? Yes. Any pound lost is appreciated, and it also puts less strain on the body.