Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation [NO MECHS] Mark 8

[Imperializt Russia]

Russia uses a 125 mm gun. It gained reliance and power over its soviet predecessor but it is still underpowered in comparison with the 120 mm guns used by the west.
The Rhinemetal 120 mm L 55 is one of the best if not the best 120 mm gun. French tank lovers will hang me for this.
I personally put the 120 mm L 52 gun as maybe the second best gun with its caliber.
The GIAT one is used only by the Leclerc.
The Rhinemetal one is used on the: Leopard, Abrams and the K1 tanks. The K2 will use the 122 L 55

How are Russian 125mm guns underpowered compared to western 120mm guns? IIRC the only major difference between the two was ammunition.

Russian guns are rated to a higher pressure than the 120mm gun.

Because of other concerns, Russian KEP ammunition is highly limited in capability. HEAT ammunition is slightly limited.
The gun doesn't matter, it's just a couple tonnes of steel tubing. What it fires, and its fire control, are far more important.

[Radicchio]

what is the fastest AFV on the battlefield or in service today?

FV 107 Scorpion.

Faster on tracks than other vehicles on wheels?
hat isn't the correct answer.

[Imperializt Russia]

In theoretical terms, wheeled vehicles will always have the capability to be faster.
In military context, you'll almost never be at maximum speed. Either terrain or your manoeuvre will preclude this, or your unit will be forced to travel at reduced speed for reasons of convoy or something else.

[Anemos Major]

The gun doesn't matter, it's just a couple tonnes of steel tubing. What it fires, and its fire control, are far more important.

Agreed, though things like growth potential, accuracy on the move, overall system weight and maintenance requirements to sustain accuracy are all governed at least in part by the gun itself (the steel tubing and the big bit at the end that keeps the gun from bursting are both important). A good gun is always worth having - but once you have that, the actual capabilities don't come from the tube.



In other news, Anemos is redrawing his IFV. Came up with a new HMG (14-15mm CTA, sort of an updooted BRG equivalent?) and an RWS that looks suspiciously like BAE's Lemur.



He also finished a tank he drew on commission.

[Imperializt Russia]

The gun doesn't matter, it's just a couple tonnes of steel tubing. What it fires, and its fire control, are far more important.

Agreed, though things like growth potential, accuracy on the move, overall system weight and maintenance requirements to sustain accuracy are all governed at least in part by the gun itself (the steel tubing and the big bit at the end that keeps the gun from bursting are both important). A good gun is always worth having - but once you have that, the actual capabilities don't come from the tube.



In other news, Anemos is redrawing his IFV. Came up with a new HMG (14-15mm CTA, sort of an updooted BRG equivalent?) and an RWS that looks suspiciously like BAE's Lemur.



He also finished a tank he drew on commission.

Of course, I was more referring to the performance of "the gun" to engage and kill other vehicles, predominantly tanks.

[Anemos Major]

Of course, I was more referring to the performance of "the gun" to engage and kill other vehicles, predominantly tanks.

I suppose it's best characterised as a 'necessary but not sufficient condition' - without a decent breech, your gun won't be able to handle the higher pressures generated by the propellants that drive your ammunition, or without a decent barrel, your gun won't be particularly accurate, making the killing power of the ammunition or the electronic components of the FCS at least partly moot. But even if you have that capable gun, that doesn't necessarily mean that you have, say, a KEP that's capable of reliably penetrating contemporary armour (sucks to have two-piece ammunition and space constraints, Russia) or a HEAT round that can defeat applique armour.

I think we're in agreement, but I just wanted to point out that guns can't necessarily be ignored. They're also not quite as easy as 'steel tubing' - the Japanese, after all, with some forty years of tank development in the post-war period still found that they couldn't develop a capable enough homegrown 120mm gun for the Type 90 in time, where they'd designed more or less everything else on the tank themselves. And as the Type 10 shows, further developing the gun can and often is a prerequisite to further developing ammunition to then be used in the gun.

[Imperializt Russia]

No, it's definitely an important point that should have been stated.
In what I perceived the context of the previous discussion to be, I figured the gun itself to be less important to what was under discussion.

[Dostanuot Loj]

The French use their own ammunition, the Germans use their own ammunition.

In theory, there's intercompatibility. In practice, I have yet to find records that indicate French 120mm ammunition being tested in Rheinmetall guns. Cross-compatibility isn't really quite that simple - even within Japan, after all, the Type 10 can fire 120mm ammunition that can't be fired from the Type 90's license produced L/44.

They certainly use their own ammunition, but they are interoperable.

I've had a few interesting conversations about the problems with the Leclerc's FCC when firing DM33 from crews who have done it.

The same applies to the Type 10 and Type 90 I would suspect, that the FCC is the main driver in differences. Although I have no first or second-hand experience there.

[Anemos Major]

They certainly use their own ammunition, but they are interoperable.

I've had a few interesting conversations about the problems with the Leclerc's FCC when firing DM33 from crews who have done it.

The same applies to the Type 10 and Type 90 I would suspect, that the FCC is the main driver in differences. Although I have no first or second-hand experience there.

Type 10's ammunition isn't rated for the Type 90's gun - afaik they're not interoperable, because the Type 10's JSW designed gun is manufactured to specifications that exceed those of the Type 90's license produced Rheinmetall and the new ammunition is designed accordingly.

(out of interest, when did you have this conversation? Because it's certainly true that they were prioritising inteoperability back during the early days, but I'm not entirely sure the newer ammunition for both guns is necessarily designed with that in mind)



Tried adding the RWS to the tank.

[Imperializt Russia]

my tonku is more fite than urs :<

-hides shame-

[Dostanuot Loj]

They certainly use their own ammunition, but they are interoperable.

I've had a few interesting conversations about the problems with the Leclerc's FCC when firing DM33 from crews who have done it.

The same applies to the Type 10 and Type 90 I would suspect, that the FCC is the main driver in differences. Although I have no first or second-hand experience there.

Type 10's ammunition isn't rated for the Type 90's gun - afaik they're not interoperable, because the Type 10's JSW designed gun is manufactured to specifications that exceed those of the Type 90's license produced Rheinmetall and the new ammunition is designed accordingly.

(out of interest, when did you have this conversation? Because it's certainly true that they were prioritising inteoperability back during the early days, but I'm not entirely sure the newer ammunition for both guns is necessarily designed with that in mind)

Metallurgy issues are all fun. You get the same with individual variants of the M68, or the L30 to L11 move.

The conversation took place in 2013, however I regularly skype with some of these people and can re-confirm their dates for their testing. The conversation was regarding the digital FCC on the Leclerc, and input/output features two separate gunners mentioned issues with firing DM33 on exercises with the Germans in 2010-2012. They were talking two different events, but both mentioned the same round.

My understanding is that national ammunition is perfected for their national guns, but apart from slight performance loss or FCC issues, there is no issue in cross-use.

[The Greater Luthorian Empire]

The Rhinemetal 120 mm L 55 is one of the best if not the best 120 mm gun. French tank lovers will hang me for this.
I personally put the 120 mm L 52 gun as maybe the second best gun with its caliber.
The GIAT one is used only by the Leclerc.

The GIAT gun and Rheinmetall guns are pretty much the same gun, the former is a bit shorter and has a barrel shroud, that is the biggest difference. The two can use the same exact ammunition as well.

[Questers]

FV 107 Scorpion.

Faster on tracks than other vehicles on wheels?
hat isn't the correct answer.

Haha. So you think. It's faster than both AMX-10RC and Stryker. There are not many wheeled AFV anyway. And it's almost definitely fasted tracked AFV in the world. On a road, its main competitir would be AMX-10RC, but off-road, I doubt there's any AFV faster.

[Doppio Giudici]

ACV-19 DFS105 would make a good light tank or is it just as bad as the BMP-3?

[The Kievan People]

ACV-19 DFS105 would make a good light tank or is it just as bad as the BMP-3?

Well it wouldn't carry any troops.

...you aren't trying to put troops in it are you?

[San-Silvacian]

Questers is right tbh.

I'm pretty sure Scorpion would be able to go faster than its 'light tank' counterparts.

but

muh

muh m41 walker bulldoge

[Yukonastan]

Air defense systems, and how they are fitted to ground vehicles.
Also known as: How big of a radar can one put on a tracked vehicle, both in terms of size and in terms of radiated power?

[Purpelia]

Here is a question. We have all seen the images of modern tanks and how their engines are designed to be easily detached and removed as a whole unit. For those that have not here is one. My question is as follows. How long does it take to get from a combat ready state to the point where you can start lifting or back again? How many hours or minutes of preparation are we talking about?

[Imperializt Russia]

The critical limit in radiated power will be the power source. Ie, the engine.
As a trawl through APA's identification page of Russian air defence vehicles will show, what actually constitutes a ground radar set mounted to a vehicle is quite variable.

The radar on an offensive asset - such as a missile or gun system, or combination system - will be limited by a variety of factors. It only needs to be able to target, not search, so lots of more modern SPAAGs and SAM tanks have AESA units mounted on the turret fore, because that's useful. Sometimes they do also fit small search radars. They'd expect to be fed targeting information from a dedicated search radar in the air defence group, then acquire and engage the target themselves.

[Anemos Major]

Here is a question. We have all seen the images of modern tanks and how their engines are designed to be easily detached and removed as a whole unit. For those that have not here is one. My question is as follows. How long does it take to get from a combat ready state to the point where you can start lifting or back again? How many hours or minutes of preparation are we talking about?

Depends on the tank in question and the support infrastructure. With the help of an engineering vehicle, you can replace the powerpack on a Leclerc in thirty minutes or less.

[Purpelia]

Depends on the tank in question and the support infrastructure. With the help of an engineering vehicle, you can replace the powerpack on a Leclerc in thirty minutes or less.

The reason why I am asking is, if you wish to know a vehicle design (or rather a few) I am working on. The vehicles in question all basically have the same layout. The crew is in the front, the engine behind them and a large cargo bay behind the engine still. And I was thinking that with a quick detach engine and a set of rails on the floor I could rapidly remove the engine without any cranes. You just uncouple it and slide it out. And the space inside the cargo area should be more than enough to perform any maintenance you wish to do short of swapping the whole unit out. Something which again is a slide in - slide out affair. And I wanted to know how quick and practical this would be. Obviously, light maintenance like changing the oil and stuff would just be done in place without removing the engine.

[The Great Nation of Dan]

Bicycle Corps?

[Immoren]

Bicycle Corps?

Just train everyone to use bicyckles as (secondary[?]) means of mechanical transportation.
Have bikes in every company sized unit's inventory, for each company member.
Have 1-2 bicycle mechanics in each company.

[Krazakistan]

The gun doesn't matter, it's just a couple tonnes of steel tubing. What it fires, and its fire control, are far more important.

Agreed, though things like growth potential, accuracy on the move, overall system weight and maintenance requirements to sustain accuracy are all governed at least in part by the gun itself (the steel tubing and the big bit at the end that keeps the gun from bursting are both important). A good gun is always worth having - but once you have that, the actual capabilities don't come from the tube.



In other news, Anemos is redrawing his IFV. Came up with a new HMG (14-15mm CTA, sort of an updooted BRG equivalent?) and an RWS that looks suspiciously like BAE's Lemur.



He also finished a tank he drew on commission.

That's the MA11 IFV, right? What changes have been made from the old version?

Also, that's a very nice tanku. Got a statblock I can take a look at?

[Anemos Major]

That's the MA11 IFV, right? What changes have been made from the old version?

Also, that's a very nice tanku. Got a statblock I can take a look at?

No statblock yet. I've handed the tank off to somebody else, so I'll be camo'ing it and giving it proper stats duly. 120mm L/55 gun, though - if you're interested.

And yeah, that's the MA11 IFV - I'm redoing the turret. See for yourself!