NationStates

Korva wrote:

United Marxist Nations wrote:That reminds me, I've been meaning to ask you if you think the conflict in the Ukraine shows any new trends in tactics, strategy, etc. that are worth noting. You seem to be one of the more knowledgeable about things like that.

You see a lot of off the shelf gear like home surveillance kits and hobby kit UAV's being used but they aren't really trends that you would see adopted by any major/well funded military.

That and the troubling feudal aspect of the conflict are luckily things that won't really be replicated too much elsewhere. It is a weird war and I'm not sure too many (unique) lessons can be derived from it.

Probably the biggest thing that will pop up elsewhere is the scale/type of information warfare that has proliferated throughout Russian language social media.

As far as the feudal aspects, I myself am a bit concerned that the conflict has confirmed the return of the Atamans as local military powers to be reckoned with.

Atomic Utopia wrote:

Roski wrote:
No, he doesn't use unrealistically sized warships...

just everything else

Oh yea, he just uses outrageously OP ones.

So which person are you referring to?

Or the star destroyer with the 3km tall forward viewscreen.

The ideal way to deploy godrods is to simply have a spacecraft carry them to the desired orbital location and then deploy them directly. Again, of course, this presumes an active space industry (possibly to the point where you have armed spacecraft as well).

There was a time in NS when no serious power lacked a superdreadnought. Pretty much everyone had one.

Superdreadnaughts are for peasants. Everyone knows the real money is in super-planes.

The Corparation wrote:Superdreadnaughts are for peasants. Everyone knows the real money is in super-planes.

An-225 as primary jet trainer? Hell yes!

Did some doodle-rendering (doodering?) on my ongoing interest in Railgun assisted Scramjets, figured this was as good a place as any to post it. Probably need to figure out a better way to lock the sabot to the missile than a few pegs as it were, but progress is progress.

EDIT: Warning, absurdly large image (probably need to fix that too).

Imperializt Russia wrote:It's physically possible but has plenty of issues, primarily power supply and capacitance.
Multi-stage guns have the additional issue of timing between the stages. If the timing is off, it will impair the acceleration.

When my cousin was studying physics I'm pretty sure he kept telling me that multi-stage coils will actually directly interfere with one another, and limit the acceleration even in a well-timed design.

So there's a theoretical maximum due to coil interference, but as long as timing works the guns ought to be okay. Sounds high-end and might make for some fun events.

Yukonastan wrote:

The United Colonies of Earth wrote:Do you know if a handheld coilgun- specifically multistage, as part of a rifle that's 110 cm long- is usable? I've heard of hobbyists building single-stage ones, but I'm not sure about a multistage coilgun.

One guy built an automatic multistage coilgun powered by batteries (Not caps). He timed it with some small IR sensors and some large diodes or something. Apply just enough power to saturate the coil, then as soon as the projectile (as long as a coil) is no longer detected at the rear, the coil is shut off.

Cool design for that guy. I would like to see that coilgun.
Alright, now I know it's possible. Thanks for telling me all this.

Mostrov wrote:On that matter would a predominately women based military actually be that poorer in performance, I'm thinking of if the standards of fitness were lowered correspondingly due to demographic desperation; surely the majority of issues around it can be circumvented?

You can overcome just about anything. Your military won't explode or anything.

The most obvious way to mitigate it would be to use more manpower for any given task. Many hands make light work.

Rough plan for a Divisional MP Special Investigative Branch Troop:

• Command Section:
  • Sr. Investigative Officer: Capt/Maj
  • Sr. Enlisted Investigator: WOII/CSjt
  • Aide: Corporal
  • Senior Forensic Examiner: CSjt
  • Military Coroner's Aide: CSjt
  • Aide: Corporal
  • Aide: Corporal
• One Section:
  • Jr. Investigative Officer: Lieutenant/Capt
  • Sr. Investigator: Serjeant
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Sr. Investigator: Serjeant
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Investigator: Corporal
• Two Section
• Three Section

Working flexibly, this team is meant to conduct serious criminal investigations in the Division they're attached to, from stranger rape within Kouralia's military, to allegations of torture or extreme prisoner abuse against the enemy, and even investigation of war crimes by the hostile forces. They are a part of the Divisional Military Police Battalion, but the Commander of the SIB team answers directly to the Battalion's Lieutenant Colonel, rather than being a part of one of the Provost Companies.

Depending on the magnitude of the task/incident, any number of investigators can be deployed. For example, a case of a disliked member of training staff being attacked and beaten may incur the attention of one of the investigative teams, lead by a Provost Serjeant who will provide daily updates to his officer. On the other hand, if the division uncovers the massacre of 'disloyal' civilians, with mass graves and ditches and the usual stuff, then the entire Troop may be involved, taking elements from the rest of the Battalion, or even attachments from other independent SIB Companies and branches as the needs arise.

To join the SIB as an enlisted soldier, after two years from posting to a Provost unit, a Lance Corporal should request to transfer to the SIB. They will then be subject to, following their commander's approval/recommendation, a short training weekend of physical tests, practical and written examinations, interviews and briefings/presentations about the role of the SIB to ensure that a) it's what they want to do and b) they're up to the job. Completing that in a satisfactory manner will result in the soldier being transferred to a residential training course at the War College of Investigation and Policing to be trained to Level Two Investigator Status. Officers are, when they commission into the MPs, given the opportunity to take a 12 month further specialisation course before being assigned to a SIB unit, though this is naturally quite a stringent training regime, both physically and mentally. All SIB investigators are combat-ready soldiers, though they wear plain-clothes when in Kouralia unless parading. When deployed in foreign countries and on operations, SIB soldiers will wear battle dress, carry carbines and drive around in light utility vehicles.

Questers wrote:There was a time in NS when no serious power lacked a superdreadnought. Pretty much everyone had one.

You forgot the submersible SDN.

SSDCVBBGN

Is the current trend of making a given formation's recce element identical in size to its main maneouvre elements (e.g. a brigade having a battalion-sized reconnaissance unit) necessary? Is it possible to have the old cold war era ratio (perhaps reinforcing it on an ad hoc basis with tank or mech companies when necessary) and still remain competitive?

Arthurista wrote:Is the current trend of making a given formation's recce element identical in size to its main maneouvre elements (e.g. a brigade having a battalion-sized reconnaissance unit) necessary? Is it possible to have the old cold war era ratio (perhaps reinforcing it on an ad hoc basis with tank or mech companies when necessary) and still remain competitive?

Having a recce btn per brigade does not make it equal in size to the maneuver element. the maneuver elements are the other 3-5 battalions in the brigade. or i am not getting what you are trying to ask.

Nachmere wrote:

Arthurista wrote:Is the current trend of making a given formation's recce element identical in size to its main maneouvre elements (e.g. a brigade having a battalion-sized reconnaissance unit) necessary? Is it possible to have the old cold war era ratio (perhaps reinforcing it on an ad hoc basis with tank or mech companies when necessary) and still remain competitive?

Having a recce btn per brigade does not make it equal in size to the maneuver element. the maneuver elements are the other 3-5 battalions in the brigade. or i am not getting what you are trying to ask.

I think he means equal in size to one maneuver element rather than the whole maneuver complement ie a battalion in a brigade of battalions.

IIRC it's not that common well certainly not in British formations where a brigade would have a recce company plus the recce elements in each battalion. Of course with some chally company's being swapped for scimitar companies in British armoured battalions they can look very recce heavy anyway.

Crookfur wrote:

Nachmere wrote:
Having a recce btn per brigade does not make it equal in size to the maneuver element. the maneuver elements are the other 3-5 battalions in the brigade. or i am not getting what you are trying to ask.

I think he means equal in size to one maneuver element rather than the whole maneuver complement ie a battalion in a brigade of battalions.

IIRC it's not that common well certainly not in British formations where a brigade would have a recce company plus the recce elements in each battalion. Of course with some chally company's being swapped for scimitar companies in British armoured battalions they can look very recce heavy anyway.

Well that depends on what is defined as "recce". In IDF infantry brigades, there is one battalion which consists of 3 companies- Recce, ATGM and Sapper. This battalion as a whole is considered a recce asset, although only one company of it is really a recce company. In armored brigades only one company of recce exists.

In the battalion level, infantry battalions have a similar organization, with one of the companies being a "point company" which includes snipers, sappers and recce (platoons). In armored battalions there was very little if any organic recce ability until recently, when the IDF decided to reduce these battalions by one tank company(often making that company a reserve unit mobilized at war time) and adding a company which can be described as a mech-recce formation.

In the late 70s the IDF also had very large armored battalions described as "Armored-Recce" formations, which were roughly 3-2 company ratio of tanks and mech-recce, with organic howitzer artillery.

So, hope these examples are useful when considering recce elements in brigade and battalion forces.

You do seem to be forcing the MP setup on a standard military template too much. It's almost painful. But, let me ask you a few points.

1 - This is divisional level, great. How does it fit in up the chain, in terms of what MP SIB assets are available at higher levels (i.e. Corps, Army, HQ Land Forces)?

2 - If you were to break down the roles within the SIB, what would they be? Are there roles you have missed, or that overlap with other parts of the Military Provost?

The roles you should really be looking at are:
- Overall Command - IC/2IC in charge of all the investigations going on, who report up and to the provost personnel in relation to what is occuring, and provide guidance on the more "sensitive" investigations.
- Personnel tasked to interview and take statements - who can just be regular MPs if I'm honest, attached to SIB.
- Personnel leading particular investigations - The investigator officer role, so a full Lieutenant who's done his special-to-arm training and got some experience.
- Crime Scene Personnel - This is what you're missing. For this, you'll want specialist investigators for the crime scene in their own forensic units, headed up by forensic experts.
- Laboratory Personnel - Where is the forensic evidence being examined? Who by? What level? Can you do some stuff at Div level, but have to refer other stuff to HQ Land Forces?
- Clerical Staff - Who is processing the reams and reams of legal information you require?
- Legal Counsel - Who is aiding you in collecting information towards prosecution?
- Medical - You will need doctors on board to provide the ability to take legal blood alcohol/drug samples, examine persons, and provide a medical opinon. On that, you will need someone on hand to legally pronounce death, conduct autopsies, and report to the military coroner. (Fun Fact - Every british combat death is subject to a full coroner's investigation, in order to investigate the circumstances and to improve casualty management and equipment).
- Bods. Always necessary to arrest people, provide scene control, and handle people.
- Media Operations - You need at least someone to handle media reports into the matter. Soldiers committing crime is serious shit. Same person can liaise with civilian police authorities as necessary.

So you see it's a bit more interesting that one might think. What would your solution be, this being your army?

Really you only need one guy to do MP duty:



MP duty and Fleet Defence in F-14 Tomcats/Su-29 Fulker.

Nachmere wrote:

Crookfur wrote:I think he means equal in size to one maneuver element rather than the whole maneuver complement ie a battalion in a brigade of battalions.

IIRC it's not that common well certainly not in British formations where a brigade would have a recce company plus the recce elements in each battalion. Of course with some chally company's being swapped for scimitar companies in British armoured battalions they can look very recce heavy anyway.

Well that depends on what is defined as "recce". In IDF infantry brigades, there is one battalion which consists of 3 companies- Recce, ATGM and Sapper. This battalion as a whole is considered a recce asset, although only one company of it is really a recce company. In armored brigades only one company of recce exists.

In the battalion level, infantry battalions have a similar organization, with one of the companies being a "point company" which includes snipers, sappers and recce (platoons). In armored battalions there was very little if any organic recce ability until recently, when the IDF decided to reduce these battalions by one tank company(often making that company a reserve unit mobilized at war time) and adding a company which can be described as a mech-recce formation.

In the late 70s the IDF also had very large armored battalions described as "Armored-Recce" formations, which were roughly 3-2 company ratio of tanks and mech-recce, with organic howitzer artillery.

So, hope these examples are useful when considering recce elements in brigade and battalion forces.

As a further example, I believe it was once common Soviet practice to designate one maneuver unit (usually the 2nd?) within a given formation as a secondary recon unit; when necessary, they could act as a makeshift forward probing force and free up the Regiment's recon company or the Division's recon battalion for dedicated, long-distance operations further ahead. Equipment and organization was the same as any of the other maneuver units, but the soldiers would be given more training in reconnaissance and scouting.

That's according to Victor Suvorov/Vladimir Rezun, anyway. His accounts have been called into question more than a few times here, so if Kyiv or anyone else well-versed in Soviet doctrine has a correction for this I'd be very pleased to hear it.

Actually, let me rephrase that. Does anyone know whether it's true that the Soviet Army designated the 2nd maneuver unit in a given formation as a secondary reconnaissance element? Or whether this would be preferable to simply making a larger reconnaissance unit? I'm going to go back to changing organization this January and I would like some input from anyone who knows better about things.

You should see if Glantz as anything on tactical formations in one of his textbooks.

Suvorov's books are sort of axe-grindy.

Alfegos wrote:

Kouralia wrote:Rough plan for a Divisional MP Special Investigative Branch Troop:

• Command Section:
  • Sr. Investigative Officer: Capt/Maj
  • Sr. Enlisted Investigator: WOII/CSjt
  • Aide: Corporal
  • Senior Forensic Examiner: CSjt
  • Military Coroner's Aide: CSjt
  • Aide: Corporal
  • Aide: Corporal
• One Section:
  • Jr. Investigative Officer: Lieutenant/Capt
  • Sr. Investigator: Serjeant
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Sr. Investigator: Serjeant
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Investigator: Corporal
  • Investigator: Corporal
• Two Section
• Three Section

Working flexibly, this team is meant to conduct serious criminal investigations in the Division they're attached to, from stranger rape within Kouralia's military, to allegations of torture or extreme prisoner abuse against the enemy, and even investigation of war crimes by the hostile forces. They are a part of the Divisional Military Police Battalion, but the Commander of the SIB team answers directly to the Battalion's Lieutenant Colonel, rather than being a part of one of the Provost Companies.

Depending on the magnitude of the task/incident, any number of investigators can be deployed. For example, a case of a disliked member of training staff being attacked and beaten may incur the attention of one of the investigative teams, lead by a Provost Serjeant who will provide daily updates to his officer. On the other hand, if the division uncovers the massacre of 'disloyal' civilians, with mass graves and ditches and the usual stuff, then the entire Troop may be involved, taking elements from the rest of the Battalion, or even attachments from other independent SIB Companies and branches as the needs arise.

To join the SIB as an enlisted soldier, after two years from posting to a Provost unit, a Lance Corporal should request to transfer to the SIB. They will then be subject to, following their commander's approval/recommendation, a short training weekend of physical tests, practical and written examinations, interviews and briefings/presentations about the role of the SIB to ensure that a) it's what they want to do and b) they're up to the job. Completing that in a satisfactory manner will result in the soldier being transferred to a residential training course at the War College of Investigation and Policing to be trained to Level Two Investigator Status. Officers are, when they commission into the MPs, given the opportunity to take a 12 month further specialisation course before being assigned to a SIB unit, though this is naturally quite a stringent training regime, both physically and mentally. All SIB investigators are combat-ready soldiers, though they wear plain-clothes when in Kouralia unless parading. When deployed in foreign countries and on operations, SIB soldiers will wear battle dress, carry carbines and drive around in light utility vehicles.

You do seem to be forcing the MP setup on a standard military template too much. It's almost painful. But, let me ask you a few points.

1 - This is divisional level, great. How does it fit in up the chain, in terms of what MP SIB assets are available at higher levels (i.e. Corps, Army, HQ Land Forces)?

Beyond this there are the independent SIB Battalions and the Provost Brigades... and that's about it. There's no further prescriptive 'there must be 'x' number of SIB people for 'Y' number of battalions or anything.

2 - If you were to break down the roles within the SIB, what would they be? Are there roles you have missed, or that overlap with other parts of the Military Provost?

A whole number of them, like Disclosure Officers. At the moment I'm not too concerned in going into the nitty-gritty of things, but...

- Overall Command - IC/2IC in charge of all the investigations going on, who report up and to the provost personnel in relation to what is occuring, and provide guidance on the more "sensitive" investigations.

SIO would normally be the Major of the Troop, or another senior Officer from an Ind. SIB Bn.

- Personnel tasked to interview and take statements - who can just be regular MPs if I'm honest, attached to SIB.

Normally any SIB soldier. More typically the junior members, like Corporals, but there's no qualms about a Sjt or even an Officer taking a statement. If there is a major major incident then the regular MPs (or Ministry of War Constabulary Officers, if it takes place in Kouralia/not on operations) may be requisitioned temporarily to help with the work-load.

- Personnel leading particular investigations - The investigator officer role, so a full Lieutenant who's done his special-to-arm training and got some experience.

Varies. Same as small investigations IRL can be conducted solely by uniformed branches, or just by DCs, or led by a DSgt, with more major ones requiring DIs, DCIs, DS and even DCS (though DCS might just be supervising force-wide CID, I can't recall otoh).

- Crime Scene Personnel - This is what you're missing. For this, you'll want specialist investigators for the crime scene in their own forensic units, headed up by forensic experts.

The Military Forensic Service (MFS) provides military CSIs who are reservists. This is quite a difficult one, since a) crimes in Kouralia will just result in regular police forensics people dealing with them, and b) it's not really a major role that people will clamour to be a Reservist for. In most cases abroad, a detachment of the Ministry of War Constabulary's forensics service will arrive.

- Laboratory Personnel - Where is the forensic evidence being examined? Who by? What level? Can you do some stuff at Div level, but have to refer other stuff to HQ Land Forces?

Invariably it will be shipped back to the Ministry of War Forensics Laboratory, which is fitted to deal with pretty much any type of evidence from any of the three services. There's not much provision in the CID team to examine evidence, since they're not forensic examiners.

- Clerical Staff - Who is processing the reams and reams of legal information you require?

Either the SIB soldiers, or clerks.

- Legal Counsel - Who is aiding you in collecting information towards prosecution?

Well... Information is being collected by the MPs, SIB, MFS etc. The Army Legal Service provides defence and prosecution lawyers, and is the ultimate arbiter for whether or not to prosecute someone.

- Medical - You will need doctors on board to provide the ability to take legal blood alcohol/drug samples, examine persons, and provide a medical opinon. On that, you will need someone on hand to legally pronounce death, conduct autopsies, and report to the military coroner. (Fun Fact - Every british combat death is subject to a full coroner's investigation, in order to investigate the circumstances and to improve casualty management and equipment).

Depending on the situation, either the relevant civilian ones (i.e. if in Kouralia), or likely using Army Doctors if on Operations.

- Bods. Always necessary to arrest people, provide scene control, and handle people.

MPs/MOWC

- Media Operations - You need at least someone to handle media reports into the matter. Soldiers committing crime is serious shit. Same person can liaise with civilian police authorities as necessary.

The Land Transport Corps has a specialist Operational Media Brigade, which is responsible for (among other things) being a go-between for the Press and the Military. If it's not so wide-scale as setting up a whole press conference, and is just a case of 'this news company wants to interview the senior detective outside the Court Martial once the sentencing is over', then they can contact the MPs directly. There is usually someone in the Troop who is designated Disclosure and Media Non-Commissioned Officer (typically falls on one of the Serjeants) who can assist whichever dude is appointed disclosure officer for an individual case.

Liaison with civilian police, while in Kouralia, is done exactly as if Lancs Constabulary needed to liaise with GMP.

So you see it's a bit more interesting that one might think. What would your solution be, this being your army?

A bit like that. I'll be honest, Lab, Forensics, Legal Counsel, Medical and Bods are all 'not really detective roles', and neither is Media that much.

Gallan Systems wrote:You should see if Glantz as anything on tactical formations in one of his textbooks.

Suvorov's books are sort of axe-grindy.

I think Kyiv mentioned Glantz earlier; seems like the bulk of his work is centered on WWII, though.

Organization-and-doctrine-wise, I've been skipping through TRADOC 350-14, TRADOC 350-16, and FM-100-60, but mostly I need a "this is how the Soviet army worked from the inside out in the Cold War" kind of source which won't involve sifting through Suvorov and liberally applying grains of salt.

David Glantz was largely responsible for most of TRADOC's publications regarding the USSR.

His "work" consists of the Soviet military. It's not just WW2, a large bulk of his more esoteric (i.e. expensive) books are on the finer points of Soviet tactical and operational doctrine up to the 1980s.

Gallan Systems wrote:David Glantz was largely responsible for most of TRADOC's publications regarding the USSR.

His "work" consists of the Soviet military. It's not just WW2, a large bulk of his more esoteric (i.e. expensive) books are on the finer points of Soviet tactical and operational doctrine up to the 1980s.

Good to know. I'll have to go look into that now.

Pharthan wrote:

Triplebaconation wrote:
Living in the so-called Bible Belt, I've noticed that many religious types trust the Bible. Very few have read it carefully.

Religious types =/= Religious Experts.
Your argument isn't valid. If you went to a University and talked with a theologian who hadn't read it carefully, that would be much more a valid argument. But being a "religious type" myself likewise from the aforementioned Bible Belt, who has talked to individuals with theological degrees (to include doctorates), they're far more reasonable and knowledgeable people than your standard "Bible Belt Religious Type." Some still are rather bullheaded, sure.

Just like if you were to talk to people from DARPA, you'd still get some crazy ideas, but that's their job. Think of crazy ideas then sit down and vet them to get some logical ones out of said crazy ideas.

Have you read the RFI?

Kouralia wrote:Snip

Fair. A couple pointers:

1 - Always include atts and dets, or potentially note them. They are useful.

2 - Dedicated pathologists would be the ones you'd be looking for in doctors. Not just any bod. Especially if you have any with experience in dealing with war crimes, looking for traces of torture/foul play, etc.

But most importantly...

Remember that Military Law is VERY DIFFERENT to Criminal Law. In the UK at least, the following are true:
- You can be tried under Military Law AND Criminal Law, AND be punished under both.
- You are tried by an appointed officer, and sometimes a jury of officers (in serious crimes), NOT by a jury of your peers.
- Guilt is determined by the Service Test, NOT by the principle of "Guilt beyond all reasonable doubt".

The service test is essentially:
“Have the actions or behaviour of an individual adversely impacted
or are they likely to impact on the efficiency or operational
effectiveness of the Army (unit)?"

Similarly, whilst the MoD/MoW Police have jurisdiction over base areas when it comes to crimes committed under CRIMINAL LAW, the MPs and thus the SIB have jurisdiction in investigations BOTH under Military and Criminal Law.

I'm not sure how Kouralian Military/Criminal law is structured, but those things are food for thought for you. In the mean time, crack on - you've got a (Relatively) good idea of what's going on, particularly since this is kinda your study area of interest.