NS Military Realism Mk. 7: NO

[Kouralia]

The cis privilege in this thread is disgusting.

I'm white, male, British, atheist, Grammar-School educated, a student, at university, relatively slim, Bi, and (allegedly) 'adorable'.

I'm so privileged it hurts.

[Vancon]

The cis privilege in this thread is disgusting.

I'm white, male, British, atheist, Grammar-School educated, a student, at university, relatively slim, Bi, and (allegedly) 'adorable'.

I'm so privileged it hurts.

I think you could've stopped at british.

We'd already know how privileged you are from that.

[The balkens]

I'm white, male, British, atheist, Grammar-School educated, a student, at university, relatively slim, Bi, and (allegedly) 'adorable'.

I'm so privileged it hurts.

I think you could've stopped at british.

We'd already know how privileged you are from that.

Ha.

[Imperializt Russia]

The cis privilege in this thread is disgusting.

ikr

The cis privilege in this thread is disgusting.

I'm white, male, British, atheist, Grammar-School educated, a student, at university, relatively slim, Bi, and (allegedly) 'adorable'.

I'm so privileged it hurts.

According to privilege bingo, I can tell you to sit dafeq down.
Neat.

Anyone else have opinions on semi-conductors?
I do feel it fell a little flat on its face as a topic, I was hoping that it might make people think "huh, I don't know much about that" and look into it themselves for a discussion.

I guess it is pretty dry unless you care about the minutiae of what it allows you to do.

[The Batorys]

So, yesterday I was looking all over the internet but couldn't find what I was searching for anywhere.

I need a cost breakdown of a space launch. How much of the cost is the engines (like how much money does it cost just to buy one unit? It's not like you can just go online and get an NK-33 or Merlin 2 on Amazon... wait... can you?), how much is the structure of the launch vehicle itself (all the shit on the rocket that's not part of the engine, so the fuel tanks, exterior hull, avionics, etc.), how much is launch facility maintenance, how much is the actual payload, and how much is the fuel.

More specifically on fuel, I've been looking for some sort of table comparing the costs of rocket fuels (specifically Liquid Oxygen, RP-1 Kerosene, Liquid Hydrogen, and Liquid Methane), but the only thing like that I could find was from 1982. While there are inflation calculators, such things are problematic, as it seems pretty chancy to assume that the costs of these things are the same relative to each other and to everything else now as they were thirty years ago.

For example, say I want to launch a Soyuz 2-1v, one of the simplest rockets (at least in terms of numbers of engines and stages) currently in use IRL. Two stages, just one engine on the first stage, and another engine on the second. How much of the total cost of the launch would be taken up just in maintenance costs of the launch facility? How much would the first stage engine cost, and how much for the second? How much money is the first stage besides the engine? How much would I spend on the fuel? What would the price difference be if instead of using kerosene, it was a rocket that used liquid hydrogen or liquid methane?

[Pharthan]

Women and men have the same physical capabilities. End of story.

Sexual Dichotomy. Its a thing.

[Yukonastan]

So, yesterday I was looking all over the internet but couldn't find what I was searching for anywhere.

I need a cost breakdown of a space launch. How much of the cost is the engines (like how much money does it cost just to buy one unit? It's not like you can just go online and get an NK-33 or Merlin 2 on Amazon... wait... can you?), how much is the structure of the launch vehicle itself (all the shit on the rocket that's not part of the engine, so the fuel tanks, exterior hull, avionics, etc.), how much is launch facility maintenance, how much is the actual payload, and how much is the fuel.

More specifically on fuel, I've been looking for some sort of table comparing the costs of rocket fuels (specifically Liquid Oxygen, RP-1 Kerosene, Liquid Hydrogen, and Liquid Methane), but the only thing like that I could find was from 1982. While there are inflation calculators, such things are problematic, as it seems pretty chancy to assume that the costs of these things are the same relative to each other and to everything else now as they were thirty years ago.

For example, say I want to launch a Soyuz 2-1v, one of the simplest rockets (at least in terms of numbers of engines and stages) currently in use IRL. Two stages, just one engine on the first stage, and another engine on the second. How much of the total cost of the launch would be taken up just in maintenance costs of the launch facility? How much would the first stage engine cost, and how much for the second? How much money is the first stage besides the engine? How much would I spend on the fuel? What would the price difference be if instead of using kerosene, it was a rocket that used liquid hydrogen or liquid methane?

Something around $100m for a spacex falcon 9/hvy launch iirc. Granted, they plan on turning profits.

[Imperializt Russia]

A FAQ on NASA's website claimed each space shuttle launch averaged $450mn. A Space.com article claimed each launch averaged $1.2bn, rising to $1.5bn including lifetime costs.
It suggested that since 1971, the programme had cost just shy of $200bn.

[Greater Soviet Ukraine]

A FAQ on NASA's website claimed each space shuttle launch averaged $450mn. A Space.com article claimed each launch averaged $1.2bn, rising to $1.5bn including lifetime costs.
It suggested that since 1971, the programme had cost just shy of $200bn.

That's about how much the military gets every third of an year. And people still whine that the ISS costed too much.

[The Corparation]

I don't know the exact break down, but most of the cost is labor (This is a big reason why India can send a mars mission for an 11th the cost of a US Mission) How the costs for labor break down further for the engine, fuel and structure for the launch vehicle I'm not sure but I think that Structure and fuel are the least expensive portions.

As for the the cost of the payload though, that price depends entirely on what the payload is. Payload costs are somewhat independent of launch vehicle, and are often listed separately. My advice is to get a price for your payload is to try and find a comparable RL mission and claim a similar price for the payload. You can also likely get by with the same tactic for the cost of the launch vehicles unless you went a more detailed breakdown. I'll try and find something better. EDIT: Looking through NASA's latest budget reports. It is 713 pages, the cost break downs it gives break down mission costs based on the spacecraft, launch vehicle, as well as the cost of other aspects of the program. As with other sources, it seems the price for the launcher is given as the whole unit, I didn't have any luck finding prices for individual launch vehicles components though. Not to say they might not be in there, but I didn't see them, and I wouldn't suggest it as reading material.

I'm actually unsure on whether or not Launch Facility maintenance is factored into the price of launch vehciles or not.

Ordinarily I'd link Atomic Rockets for a question like this, but the Author's costs focus more on price per kilogram than such breakdowns. As such I'll link Encyclopedia Astronautica Which has articles on various fuel combinations and iirc for some of them has the cost per kg.

[Pharthan]

Living in the so-called Bible Belt, I've noticed that many religious types trust the Bible. Very few have read it carefully.

Religious types =/= Religious Experts.
Your argument isn't valid. If you went to a University and talked with a theologian who hadn't read it carefully, that would be much more a valid argument. But being a "religious type" myself likewise from the aforementioned Bible Belt, who has talked to individuals with theological degrees (to include doctorates), they're far more reasonable and knowledgeable people than your standard "Bible Belt Religious Type." Some still are rather bullheaded, sure.

Just like if you were to talk to people from DARPA, you'd still get some crazy ideas, but that's their job. Think of crazy ideas then sit down and vet them to get some logical ones out of said crazy ideas.

In fact it's the exact opposite. Rods from God are another thing that everybody thinks they know about but haven't researched carefully or at all. For one thing they were never supposed to be in LEO lol.

If I thought it was a good idea for NS MT roleplays, I'd be selling them in my storefront. I already have the artwork done, but I stayed my hand when I realized 'Wait, this is stupid.'

I'm saying it's not as stupid as some people say it is.

[The Batorys]

Something around $100m for a spacex falcon 9/hvy launch iirc. Granted, they plan on turning profits.

So, a Falcon 9 can get 13,150kg of payload to Low Earth Orbit. For a Falcon 9 launch, according to their website, SpaceX charges $61.2 million.

That $61.2 million has to pay (including work hours) for
1. Engines
2. The rest of the launch vehicle structure, including fuel tanks, avionics, the hull surface, etc.
3. Launch facility maintenance.
4. Liquid oxygen.
5. Rocket-grade kerosene (RP-1).

And has to result in
6. Profit

The question I have is how much of that $61.2 million goes to each thing.

A FAQ on NASA's website claimed each space shuttle launch averaged $450mn. A Space.com article claimed each launch averaged $1.2bn, rising to $1.5bn including lifetime costs.
It suggested that since 1971, the programme had cost just shy of $200bn.

Yes, there's lots and lots of quotes about the total costs.

But there isn't a whole lot of info on the specifics of a launch.

Also I'd prefer using SpaceX's launch systems and the Russian Soyuz as examples, because the space shuttle is a very different kind of vehicle than what I'm thinking of.

I don't know the exact break down, but most of the cost is labor (This is a big reason why India can send a mars mission for an 11th the cost of a US Mission) How the costs for labor break down further for the engine, fuel and structure for the launch vehicle I'm not sure but I think that Structure and fuel are the least expensive portions.

As for the the cost of the payload though, that price depends entirely on what the payload is. Payload costs are somewhat independent of launch vehicle, and are often listed separately. My advice is to get a price for your payload is to try and find a comparable RL mission and claim a similar price for the payload. You can also likely get by with the same tactic for the cost of the launch vehicles unless you went a more detailed breakdown. I'll try and find something better.

I'm actually unsure on whether or not Launch Facility maintenance is factored into the price of launch vehciles or not.

Ordinarily I'd link Atomic Rockets for a question like this, but the Author's costs focus more on price per kilogram than such breakdowns. As such I'll linkEncyclopedia Astronautica Which has articles on various fuel combinations and iirc for some of them has the cost per kg.

Oh, I've looked on both Atomic Rockets and Astronautix, and used them extensively to make sure, you know, the stuff I was thinking on could possibly work.

Ignore the cost of the payload, though. That's a separate thing and as you mention, depends entirely on what the payload is. Pretend the payload is a tightly packed box of bricks massing ~12,000kg, that once in Low Earth Orbit will do absolutely nothing. Why is this box of bricks being put into orbit? Who knows. Some rich crazy person decided it should be, so it is. Basically, pretend the payload is irrelevant for the moment, other than being 10,000-12,000kg that costs next to nothing.

The costs of the launch vehicle, on the other hand, do not vary nearly as much (I assume... and SpaceX's pricing bears out).

A Falcon 9, or a Soyuz (rocket, not the spacecraft) still costs what it costs, because you have to buy/build the engines, put together the fuel tanks and outer hull structure, put in the avionics, keep the launch pad in a state where it can support operations (if you own it... if you don't own it, then you have to pay whoever does own it so that they can maintain it), and buy the fuel you need to fill up the tank (the costs of which depend on what your launch vehicle uses... though how much is also something I've been trying, futilely, to find out).

Whether the payload is some insanely complex, expensive satellite, or a 10,000kg box of bricks, the launch vehicle costs would be roughly similar at least. I'm trying to figure out what those are, because that's a lot more useful than "it costs this much for this whole mission."

Whereas if I know that of the cost of launching rocket A, X% is just the engine, Y% is the propellant, and Z% is all the other structural stuff of the vehicle, then I have a much better ballpark figure for estimating the cost of rocket B, which uses two, or four, or whatever of the same engine, and presumably more of the propellant.

[United Marxist Nations]

Артиллерия порно входящие:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LEUjiIMDmM

Best played with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXaCOQINrNA

[Questers]

Women and men have the same physical capabilities. End of story.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

[Padnak]

Women and men have the same physical capabilities. End of story.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

hahah aha ahha ahahaha ahah ah

---

For supply convoys moving through area's there they are potentionally at risk of being attacked by insurgents, would metal blast shields (folded in the picture) for the windows be sensible or would they lower situation awareness too much?

[Korva]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

hahah aha ahha ahahaha ahah ah

---

For supply convoys moving through area's there they are potentionally at risk of being attacked by insurgents, would metal blast shields (folded in the picture) for the windows be sensible or would they lower situation awareness too much?

People fighting in Ukraine and Syria seem to fine with the trade off. Obviously bulletproof windows would be preferable though.

[Pharthan]

Question: Apart from the Trimverate (Belfras) Perun-class, the Lyran Arms [REDACTED]-class, and my Shogun-class, are there any other large Megaships on NS anymore? I'm thinking of making a Comparison Chart... with a Nimitz in the corner to laugh at the lack of realism.

[Mostrov]

On that matter would a predominately women based military actually be that poorer in performance, I'm thinking of if the standards of fitness were lowered correspondingly due to demographic desperation; surely the majority of issues around it can be circumvented?
After reading some of what has been written in the forums I've been curious in trying to create a gynecocracy (merely out of novelty) and the only way I could forsee something like that is after a devastating war that removes a huge amount of the male populace, similar to either the French or Paraguay with a subsequent revolution afterwards that allows puts such a radical society in power.

[Roski]

Question: Apart from the Trimverate (Belfras) Perun-class, the Lyran Arms [REDACTED]-class, and my Shogun-class, are there any other large Megaships on NS anymore? I'm thinking of making a Comparison Chart... with a Nimitz in the corner to laugh at the lack of realism.

A certain nation on here used to have super-Dreadnauts that made the USS Nimitz look like a row boat.

[United Marxist Nations]

hahah aha ahha ahahaha ahah ah

---

For supply convoys moving through area's there they are potentionally at risk of being attacked by insurgents, would metal blast shields (folded in the picture) for the windows be sensible or would they lower situation awareness too much?

People fighting in Ukraine and Syria seem to fine with the trade off. Obviously bulletproof windows would be preferable though.

That reminds me, I've been meaning to ask you if you think the conflict in the Ukraine shows any new trends in tactics, strategy, etc. that are worth noting. You seem to be one of the more knowledgeable about things like that.

[Roski]

People fighting in Ukraine and Syria seem to fine with the trade off. Obviously bulletproof windows would be preferable though.

That reminds me, I've been meaning to ask you if you think the conflict in the Ukraine shows any new trends in tactics, strategy, etc. that are worth noting. You seem to be one of the more knowledgeable about things like that.

It seems to me from the very, very TINY bit I have read about the actual fighting its following a somewhat normal anti-insurgency tactics seen by Russia.

[Atomic Utopia]

Question: Apart from the Trimverate (Belfras) Perun-class, the Lyran Arms [REDACTED]-class, and my Shogun-class, are there any other large Megaships on NS anymore? I'm thinking of making a Comparison Chart... with a Nimitz in the corner to laugh at the lack of realism.

A certain nation on here used to have super-Dreadnauts that made the USS Nimitz look like a row boat.

Are you referring to [REDACTED]?

[Korva]

People fighting in Ukraine and Syria seem to fine with the trade off. Obviously bulletproof windows would be preferable though.

That reminds me, I've been meaning to ask you if you think the conflict in the Ukraine shows any new trends in tactics, strategy, etc. that are worth noting. You seem to be one of the more knowledgeable about things like that.

You see a lot of off the shelf gear like home surveillance kits and hobby kit UAV's being used but they aren't really trends that you would see adopted by any major/well funded military.

That and the troubling feudal aspect of the conflict are luckily things that won't really be replicated too much elsewhere. It is a weird war and I'm not sure too many (unique) lessons can be derived from it.

Probably the biggest thing that will pop up elsewhere is the scale/type of information warfare that has proliferated throughout Russian language social media.

[Roski]

A certain nation on here used to have super-Dreadnauts that made the USS Nimitz look like a row boat.

Are you referring to [REDACTED]?

No, he doesn't use unrealistically sized warships...

just everything else

[Atomic Utopia]

Are you referring to [REDACTED]?

No, he doesn't use unrealistically sized warships...

just everything else

Oh yea, he just uses outrageously OP ones.

So which person are you referring to?