NS Military Realism Mk. 7: NO

[Gallia-]

No. SOF based armies have an illusory idea of what war is about. Will say more later.

Just by how much are you outnumbered in terms of GDP?

Probably a lot. It's not a numbers game yet.

It's not an SF-"based" system, the idea is to integrate SF in regular combat operations and to use them as, admittedly very specialist, conventional units in support of operations. Which supposedly was a weird concept in 2003 that worked surprisingly well. I just want to add an airborne aspect to the concept and throw them more directly against tank divisions (obviously with more heavy arms) than SF groups working with Peshmerga were in Iraq.

Pretty sure Joffre would have owned the Iraki Army in 2003.

[Triplebaconation]

I think the relationship between velocity and ERA espoused in this thread is nonsense.

making a round slower to defeat ERA lol

[Korva]

I think the relationship between velocity and ERA espoused in this thread is nonsense.

making a round slower to defeat ERA lol

You have to make it fast enough to kill the tank before they can fit it with ERA.

[Rich and Corporations]

How does cryptography protect against viruses? If I send you a picture of Kim Kardashian's butt containing a cunning virus and encrypt it, the virus is effectively undetectable until the information is decrypted.

Anyway, it's beside the point.

There are three ways to conduct a "cyber-attack," or whatever it's called now, and "coded equipment" won't protect against any of them.

1) Hide exploits in hardware during manufacturing. This happens all the time.

2) Malicious software. This doesn't require connection to the internet or anything, just lax information security. Also happens all the time.

3) All radars are wireless hotspots! An aircraft can introduce various unpleasant algorithms into an air defense grid with suitably sophisticated jammers. This isn't a theoretical capability - it happens.

you're a spook that works for the NSA, aren't you?

besides, the sheer amount of money and economic resources means that quantum computers exist in NS, on a small scale, but a scale large enough to render 128-bit keys vulnerable.

All bugs are programming errors - programming errors that result in inputs causing incorrect outputs. The received pulse is an input.

All exploits are either bugs or cleverly disguised loopholes.

1. There are probably other ERA defeat mechanisms in the round.
2. We don't really know anything about the E4.

hmmm

ERA defeat... using... LASERS. Discuss.

[Dostanuot Loj]

I think the relationship between velocity and ERA espoused in this thread is nonsense.

making a round slower to defeat ERA lol

You're right, it is nonsense.
The reality is the LRP is stronger itself to reduce the effect of shearing forces. This simply means more mass. More mass at the same muzzle energy means slower.

This has been known for a long while. And I know you and at least a few regulars here know it too.

[Rich and Corporations]

I think the relationship between velocity and ERA espoused in this thread is nonsense.

making a round slower to defeat ERA lol

You're right, it is nonsense.
The reality is the LRP is stronger itself to reduce the effect of shearing forces. This simply means more mass. More mass at the same muzzle energy means slower.

This has been known for a long while. And I know you and at least a few regulars here know it too.

hmmm...
hollow core LRP to be strong and as bendable as a bamboo shoot?

[San-Silvacian]

I think the relationship between velocity and ERA espoused in this thread is nonsense.

making a round slower to defeat ERA lol

You're right, it is nonsense.
The reality is the LRP is stronger itself to reduce the effect of shearing forces. This simply means more mass. More mass at the same muzzle energy means slower.

This has been known for a long while. And I know you and at least a few regulars here know it too.

I didn't know this D:

[The Kievan People]

Sorry, but it isn't.

ERA modules are designed to be insensitive, they cannot be triggered by just anything which punctures them. Normally they are designed so they will not be detonated by low velocity impacts like shrapnel and autoncannon fire. Only the shock from a sufficiently high velocity impact will do. The US Army had a serious problem with this in Iraq - insurgent IEDs often impacted below the triggering velocity - and needed to design completely new ERA as a result. Kontakt-5 was designed specifically to be hard to detonate so it would not have the same issues as Kontakt. This was exploited in the design of the M829A3.

ERA can always be made more sensitive, so it isn't a magic bullet, but this comes at the cost of making it more likely to to be destroyed by accidental or sympathetic detonations. Lowering the velocity of the penetrator IS a viable anti-ERA strategy.

[Mitheldalond]

I think the relationship between velocity and ERA espoused in this thread is nonsense.

making a round slower to defeat ERA lol

You're right, it is nonsense.
The reality is the LRP is stronger itself to reduce the effect of shearing forces. This simply means more mass. More mass at the same muzzle energy means slower.

This has been known for a long while. And I know you and at least a few regulars here know it too.

So firing the M829A3 at a higher velocity wouldn't decrease its ability to defeat ERA?

[Triplebaconation]

It might decrease it's ability to defeat anything, depending on how it's designed.

The myth arises from the fact that the filling of Kontakt-5 is relatively insensitive and won't detonate reliably if struck at velocities somewhere around 1300 meters per second or so. M829A3 will trigger Kontakt-5 at any realistic engagement range. M829E4 was designed with Relikt in mind, which by all accounts is more sensitive - the round would have to traveling ludicrously slowly to avoid detonation.

[North Arkana]

And then, suddenly, coming out of the low cloud bank comes an [insert aircraft here]. It drops a [insert name of guided bomb here] next to you or on top of you and your [insert fancy armor name here] is a non issue...

Oh air-power... why must you troll the ground-pounders?

[San-Silvacian]

And then, suddenly, coming out of the low cloud bank comes an [insert aircraft here]. It drops a [insert name of guided bomb here] next to you or on top of you and your [insert fancy armor name here] is a non issue...

Oh air-power... why must you troll the ground-pounders?

However as this happens regimental air defense has already engaged the aircraft and shot it down.

Really this game of hurr one up u is fucking dumb.

[Triplebaconation]

Nothing provides reliable protection against non sequiturs.

[New Vihenia]

So firing the M829A3 at a higher velocity wouldn't decrease its ability to defeat ERA?

No. Because Kontakt work by exerting immense shearing forces to incoming penetrator, one should actually build penetrator that can withstand the shearing force to prevent yawing or breaking during penetration process.

To do that perhaps.. longer and heavier penetrator must be sought and that's how M829A2 and A3 were built.

Slow down of the penetrator is just consequence that additional mass.

[Inyourfaceistan]

I feel the real point behind this all is that 120mm tank guns are still extremely effective, casting a gloomy doubt on certain people and their 150mm+ tank gun MBT's...

[The United Remnants of America]

I feel the real point behind this all is that 120mm tank guns are still extremely effective, casting a gloomy doubt on certain people and their 150mm+ tank gun MBT's...

If your tank gun can penetrate the other tank and disable it, then the size of your gun really doesn't matter compared to your enemy's tank gun, does it?

[Korva]

casting a gloomy doubt on certain people and their 150mm+ tank gun MBT's...

You make me sad.

I feel the real point behind this all is that 120mm tank guns are still extremely effective, casting a gloomy doubt on certain people and their 150mm+ tank gun MBT's...

If your tank gun can penetrate the other tank and disable it, then the size of your gun really doesn't matter compared to your enemy's tank gun, does it?

It is very important as it determines whose tanks will be deemed better by the you(futur?)tube commenters of the future.

[New Vihenia]

I feel the real point behind this all is that 120mm tank guns are still extremely effective, casting a gloomy doubt on certain people and their 150mm+ tank gun MBT's...

150++ caliber with long barrel will tear anything for some more decades ahead..given that physics to penetrate armor still work the same way.

Problem i noticed from ppl having tank with such gun is they unaware of the tradeoff.

[The Kievan People]

It might decrease it's ability to defeat anything, depending on how it's designed.

The myth arises from the fact that the filling of Kontakt-5 is relatively insensitive and won't detonate reliably if struck at velocities somewhere around 1300 meters per second or so. M829A3 will trigger Kontakt-5 at any realistic engagement range. M829E4 was designed with Relikt in mind, which by all accounts is more sensitive - the round would have to traveling ludicrously slowly to avoid detonation.

Don't make me say it!

It isn't binary. As the velocity of penetrator approaches the minimum velocity for detonation, the probability of detonation decreases.

According to the information on Andrei's site, the high explosive material in Kotakt-5 detonates reliably at impact velocities of 1650-1700m/s but the probability of detonation falls to 50% at 1500m/s. And I shouldn't have to tell you what the muzzle velocity of the M829A3 is.

[New Vihenia]

Don't make me say it!

It isn't binary. As the velocity of penetrator approaches the minimum velocity for detonation, the probability of detonation decreases.

According to the information on Andrei's site, the high explosive material in Kotakt-5 detonates reliably at impact velocities of 1650-1700m/s but the probability of detonation falls to 50% at 1500m/s. And I shouldn't have to tell you what the muzzle velocity of the M829A3 is.

So it avoid detonation at all. interesting.

[EsToVnIa]

It might decrease it's ability to defeat anything, depending on how it's designed.

The myth arises from the fact that the filling of Kontakt-5 is relatively insensitive and won't detonate reliably if struck at velocities somewhere around 1300 meters per second or so. M829A3 will trigger Kontakt-5 at any realistic engagement range. M829E4 was designed with Relikt in mind, which by all accounts is more sensitive - the round would have to traveling ludicrously slowly to avoid detonation.

Don't make me say it!

It isn't binary. As the velocity of penetrator approaches the minimum velocity for detonation, the probability of detonation decreases.

According to the information on Andrei's site, the high explosive material in Kotakt-5 detonates reliably at impact velocities of 1650-1700m/s but the probability of detonation falls to 50% at 1500m/s. And I shouldn't have to tell you what the muzzle velocity of the M829A3 is.

You and sansilv

goddammit

[Padnak]

So in conclusion we need a modern ISU-152 to bust lolzy NS tanks?

[Inyourfaceistan]

I feel the real point behind this all is that 120mm tank guns are still extremely effective, casting a gloomy doubt on certain people and their 150mm+ tank gun MBT's...

If your tank gun can penetrate the other tank and disable it, then the size of your gun really doesn't matter compared to your enemy's tank gun, does it?

Actually, my 120mm gun can carry more ammo, has a lot less recoil and potentially less costly.
Suddenly I'm less afraid of the enemy's lol:huge gun size, and a lot more confident with my M1A2's 120mm L/44 cannon...

[The Kievan People]

So it avoid detonation at all. interesting.

I will just ahead and link the entire article, because it discusses a few different ways APFSDS can defeat ERA:

1. Reducing velocity.
2. Reducing the cross section of the tip. NII Stali tests showed that when a pin was affixed to the front of a 3BM22 APFSDS it would penetrate the modules without triggering them.
3. Breakaway segments.

It also links some scientific articles about ERA which IIRC you asked for. In Russian

And he doesn't mention it, because it is not terribly relevant for tank guns, but increasing velocity well above ordnance velocities is supposed to be another viable strategy for defeating ERA.

[Northwest Slobovia]

So in conclusion we need a modern ISU-152 to bust lolzy NS tanks?

Clearly. And that's not just because I like assault guns. /nods