Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation [NO MECHS] Tranche 7

[Triplebaconation]

I think that someone's a little mad that Questers can't fly around in Wipeouts without being accused of copying a fictional video game.

[San-Silvacian]

This is NS it couldn't matter less.

Incestuous nazi dinosaurs.

[Purpelia]

This is NS it couldn't matter less.

Incestuous nazi dinosaurs.

Now you make me want to google that.

[Stasnov]

http://iiwiki.com/wiki/SBR-98_Raider

Opinions?

[Dostanuot Loj]

I've been trying to get people to do that here for years.
"Immune from XXXSpecificRound 30 degrees across the frontal arc from 1km" is an applicable, realistic protection value. Provided all other things match, which is why it's good for people to review things like weight, internal layout, etc.

Protection is the hardest part of a tank to come up with realistically for a game like NS, because it is the most complex.

protection.... isn't binary.

even the best protected tanks aim for protection probabilities of 75% or 90% or something. it's a bit classified

Thank you for reminding me to point out that "immune" in the real world related to tanks really means "greater then 75% chance of success".

For reference:
If your tank has a protection probability of less then 50%, it's unable to protect against that round effectively.
If it has greater then 50% but less then 75%, it's protected from that round, or somewhat, or all kinds of buzzwords.
If over 75%, it's immune.

If an T-72M1 is not protected well against an M829A3, that doesn't mean you will never see a T-72M1 shrug off a hit from an M829A3 like its nothing.
Likewise, if the M1A2 is immune against say 3BM-42, that doesn't mean the T-72M1 that just shrugged off the M829A3 will never penetrate the M1A2's front turret and knock it out first round.
Highly unlikely, but not impossible.

[Registug]

This is NS it couldn't matter less.

Incestuous nazi dinosaurs.

where did that guy go :(



Anyway, maybe not NS related but certainly ground vehicle related: I am writing a quest (kinda like a live-written choose your own adventure) in which post apocalyptic Eastern Europe where a lot of people are mercenaries in very old fixed up tanks and shit. My players have currently picked a Leo 1A3 as their tank.

Of course I'm going to be handwaving a lot of stuff in the interests of keeping things simple, but at the same time I'd like to have things as 'authentic' as possible (not realistic, but close enough to get by). This is my current 'upgrade tree' for the Leopard 1, and it's still a WIP; I'm wondering if I can get by with something like this. Note I'm taking into account stuff like ammo and repairs, but I am ignoring fuel costs.

I'd like to know what I should consider when writing out this kind of situation, especially an explanation in the various types of FCS for the Leopard 1 and how that would work out in the context of my little 'upgrade tree'.
Also, ammo; jerry rigged steel AP is the most common type of ammo, with standard HE as the second most common and cheap steel based APFSDS as the third. Then there's HEAT which is uncommon, and then 'premium' APFSDS which will be made of stuff like tungsten or DU and be sort of a 'super round' in-universe. How much should I go into the different penetration stuff of these different ammunitions, if at all? And what about ballistics and such? So far I haven't really thought about it, but the previous conversation about Leopard 1 FCS and the ammunition ballistics limitation has made me think.


And as a minor side note, how willing would some of you guys be to have your vehicles feature as cameos?

[Novorden]

snip

What other tanks could they have got if they chose differently?

And as a minor side note, how willing would some of you guys be to have your vehicles feature as cameos?

I'm not sure my designs fit the time frame, (I have designs from the 50s and the 90s but only a couple in between) but i am happy for them to be featured if you want them.

[Caribica]

Screw this, if I'm going to be harassed by realism nazis then I'm out.

[Imperializt Russia]

Screw this, if I'm going to be harassed by realism nazis then I'm out.

I'm going to victim-blame you.

TWO (2). Post something, anything - whether it's an idea, a vehicle, some vehicles or just a photo - and whatever you post can be criticised, discussed, examined and cross-examined by the other posters on this thread. So make the most of it - there're plenty of learned fellows here, and they're all happy to make sure you get the feedback you want. If you don't want people talking about something you've posted, don't put it here, put it in your factbook.

[Padnak]

Screw this, if I'm going to be harassed by realism nazis then I'm out.

Always a pleasure

[Registug]

snip

What other tanks could they have got if they chose differently?

And as a minor side note, how willing would some of you guys be to have your vehicles feature as cameos?

I'm not sure my designs fit the time frame, (I have designs from the 50s and the 90s but only a couple in between) but i am happy for them to be featured if you want them.

Some light tanks that I forgot about
M103, Conquerer or IS-10 if they went for heavier stuff
and out of the mediums it was M60, Leopard 1, T-62, Centurion (the one with the 105mm), and a Panzer 61 (this was a joke choice and everyone was equally horrified that it was a choice and relieved when they missed it)
They were only voting for vague things like "an american star", "an iron cross", "a dull, russian green", and stuff. In the end it was a tie between the iron cross and the russian green, but the iron cross won out in the end.

As far as time period, there is none! Early 80s era tanks are the most common, and later era tanks like the M1A2 abrams are mythical "super tanks", and the Republic of Warsaw even has three PL-01s which are also treated like super tanks, so.

[Novorden]

As far as time period, there is none! Early 80s era tanks are the most common, and later era tanks like the M1A2 abrams are mythical "super tanks", and the Republic of Warsaw even has three PL-01s which are also treated like super tanks, so.

Mythical you say? Good thing my tank already has a wyvern on it

[Purpelia]

How did you draw that dragon thing? Also, would you be interested in suggesting some ideas for a roundel/marking for my air force? I am out of ideas.

[Orussia]

Screw this, if I'm going to be harassed by realism nazis then I'm out.

Funny.

TWO (2). Post something, anything - whether it's an idea, a vehicle, some vehicles or just a photo - and whatever you post can be criticised, discussed, examined and cross-examined by the other posters on this thread. So make the most of it - there're plenty of learned fellows here, and they're all happy to make sure you get the feedback you want. If you don't want people talking about something you've posted, don't put it here, put it in your factbook.

And as a minor side note, how willing would some of you guys be to have your vehicles feature as cameos?

Not sure any of mine would fit in that era, they're both post 2000 designs.

[Dostanuot Loj]

Incestuous nazi dinosaurs.

where did that guy go



Anyway, maybe not NS related but certainly ground vehicle related: I am writing a quest (kinda like a live-written choose your own adventure) in which post apocalyptic Eastern Europe where a lot of people are mercenaries in very old fixed up tanks and shit. My players have currently picked a Leo 1A3 as their tank.

Of course I'm going to be handwaving a lot of stuff in the interests of keeping things simple, but at the same time I'd like to have things as 'authentic' as possible (not realistic, but close enough to get by). This is my current 'upgrade tree' for the Leopard 1, and it's still a WIP; I'm wondering if I can get by with something like this. Note I'm taking into account stuff like ammo and repairs, but I am ignoring fuel costs.

I'd like to know what I should consider when writing out this kind of situation, especially an explanation in the various types of FCS for the Leopard 1 and how that would work out in the context of my little 'upgrade tree'.
Also, ammo; jerry rigged steel AP is the most common type of ammo, with standard HE as the second most common and cheap steel based APFSDS as the third. Then there's HEAT which is uncommon, and then 'premium' APFSDS which will be made of stuff like tungsten or DU and be sort of a 'super round' in-universe. How much should I go into the different penetration stuff of these different ammunitions, if at all? And what about ballistics and such? So far I haven't really thought about it, but the previous conversation about Leopard 1 FCS and the ammunition ballistics limitation has made me think.


And as a minor side note, how willing would some of you guys be to have your vehicles feature as cameos?

I'm going to go down your upgrade tree for you with details. I am literally throwing out anything and everything you can do based on space/needs/reality though.

Gun:
L7A3 is default of course. Most other L7, including M68 won't fit though.
IWS fits, of course, it was trialed.
Later marks of 20 pounder will fit, as will US 90mm.
120mm L/44 will fit, but requires new gun cradle. It will fit all marks of Leopard 1 turret. However it was only ever fitted operationally to A1 turrets. A2 turrets never had the modification, and A3 turrets were trialed with it. A3 and A4 turrets were not upgraded because of the increased electronics inside them, especially A4. Leo 1A4 has more electronics inside its turret then any other Leopard 1, including the A5, and is easily on par with late batches of the Leopard 2A4. But they will all take the new gun with a new cradle.
165mm L9 will also fit in all turrets, funnily enough.

Turret:
A1 is most common.
A2 has more armour, but internally same as the A2.
A3 has better armour and more internal volume.
A4 is digital.
A5 is A1 with new systems.
A1/A5 need applique armour to protect against 30mm autocannon. A2-A4 are all protected against it by default.

FCS:
A1-A3 have the same range finding and fire control systems. They are all identical and analogue. PZB 200 image intensifier can be added to increase capability though. Commanders independent sight is literally a conventional periscope tube he can rotate around.
A4 has a digital bespoke system, only vehicle to have it. Although as the A3 and A4 turrets are identical, you could upgrade an A3 easily. Commander has proper independent thermal viewer, as does gunner. PZB 200 is a downgrade here. Ammo reduction in A4 tanks was due to increased electronics space needed, especially for cooling.
A5 is an A1 turret with EMES 18 FCS derived from Leopard 2A4. PZB 200 is not needed here, but the conventional commanders independent periscope remains. Inferior in many ways to A4, but cheaper.
There is also the SABCA FCS which has been trialed on A1/A2 and A3 turrets. Pretty equal to the EMES 18.

Engine:
There is the default of course. Best bet. Europower pack will fit though. Not worth it I think.

Radio:
A1-A3 you have two sets of radio. The older analogue radios, or the SEM80/90 digital radios. The latter being an upgrade. A4 has the digital radios stock, A5 has them as part of their rebuild. Those are your two German options.

Armour:
ERA is iffy on the Leopard. I don't believe any was ever seriously trialed, but any old brick system (Blazer, Brenus, etc.) should fit.
Slats and ghetto-fabulous sheet steel are always applicable.
MEXAS medium and MEXAS heavy have been developed for both turret groups too.
The A1/A5's perforated, laminated steel applique can be added to the A2 turret too. Germans never felt the need as they only ever wanted 30mm autocannon protection.

What kind of purchase system does this work on? What and where are your resources? What enemies? Targets? Are available munitions based on old stockpiles? If so APDS and HESH should be so plentiful you can afford to throw them away. And if that's the case never leave the L7A3, because having enough shots that can work is better then having no shots that will work.

[Orussia]

L7A3 is default of course. Most other L7, including M68 won't fit though.

Interesting. I've never really researched the L7/M68 all that thoroughly, what are the differences that prevent the M68 from fitting?

[Novorden]

How did you draw that dragon thing?

That one i based off/copied a design for a tattoo.

Also, would you be interested in suggesting some ideas for a roundel/marking for my air force? I am out of ideas.

Are these the sort of things you were thinking?

[Purpelia]

Are these the sort of things you were thinking?

Not really. I just basically have to think up a good insignia for my air force. But when ever I try I end up with stuff that's ugly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_aircraft_insignia

[Dostanuot Loj]

L7A3 is default of course. Most other L7, including M68 won't fit though.

Interesting. I've never really researched the L7/M68 all that thoroughly, what are the differences that prevent the M68 from fitting?

L7A3 has a specifically designed breach to fit the Leopard 1's turret roof. And the cradle mount is different. Other L7s won't fit because of this, including M68. Mostly for M68 because of the breach design.
IWS will fit, and will fit most other L7 and M68 mounts because it is designed to.

[Registug]

The money stuff I'm still throwing through the wringer to get all the kinks worked out. Also it's full of holes still. At its basics it's "pay currency for upgrades off a list" and "go to store to buy stuff". Prices for things are arbitrarily decided based on how much work I my players to have to do before they can buy it, much like a game in that regard.

Most of the old stockpile has either been used up or gone bad by this time. Ammunition prices are based around complexity/usefulness/value of the round, and the fact that they're usually bought in bulk. Due to reduced population and most of Europe being turned into wasteland, the munitions factories are extremely valuable and always heavily guarded by whoever controls them. A country may have one or two ammunition factories, and a few scattered independent ones in the parts of the wasteland controlled by mercs. Actually with how valuable ammunition is I might have to bump up its price, especially in the fancier ammuntion types.

Thanks for the info regarding everything else. I'm going to take it into account but there's some other things I'd like to do with the upgrades. Rather than X > Y, I like the idea of having compromises that give more significance to the choices made. Example, if the players get to the point where they can afford a 120mm, I like that they would have to tradeoff to an older turret to do so. Less protection for more firepower. Better FCS, but less ready ammo. I'll have to consider it all.

And of course, eventually they're going to hire enough crew to put in a second tank, and THAT tank is going to have all sorts of upgrades. Thankfully that's an 'eventually' and not anytime soon, I've got my work cut out for me.

I probably won't make so many things completely realistic, but it's good to know how it ACTUALLY works, then adapt it to fit my needs. A better understanding of everything will help me in my writing, too.

[Mizrad]

At the risk of sounding stupid, where is the most ideal place to store ammunition safely in an MBT while also being capable of using something like the M1A2's blowout panel [I think that's what it's called] where it also will be fairly easy for the loader to handle.

[Registug]

Exactly like the Abrams does it: in the back of the turret. It's called a "bustle".

[Rennen-Slovette]

T is for taggies,.

And this topic seems off-topic.

[Mizrad]

Exactly like the Abrams does it: in the back of the turret. It's called a "bustle".

Much obliged kind sir.

[Dostanuot Loj]

The money stuff I'm still throwing through the wringer to get all the kinks worked out. Also it's full of holes still. At its basics it's "pay currency for upgrades off a list" and "go to store to buy stuff". Prices for things are arbitrarily decided based on how much work I my players to have to do before they can buy it, much like a game in that regard.

Most of the old stockpile has either been used up or gone bad by this time. Ammunition prices are based around complexity/usefulness/value of the round, and the fact that they're usually bought in bulk. Due to reduced population and most of Europe being turned into wasteland, the munitions factories are extremely valuable and always heavily guarded by whoever controls them. A country may have one or two ammunition factories, and a few scattered independent ones in the parts of the wasteland controlled by mercs. Actually with how valuable ammunition is I might have to bump up its price, especially in the fancier ammuntion types.

Thanks for the info regarding everything else. I'm going to take it into account but there's some other things I'd like to do with the upgrades. Rather than X > Y, I like the idea of having compromises that give more significance to the choices made. Example, if the players get to the point where they can afford a 120mm, I like that they would have to tradeoff to an older turret to do so. Less protection for more firepower. Better FCS, but less ready ammo. I'll have to consider it all.

And of course, eventually they're going to hire enough crew to put in a second tank, and THAT tank is going to have all sorts of upgrades. Thankfully that's an 'eventually' and not anytime soon, I've got my work cut out for me.

I probably won't make so many things completely realistic, but it's good to know how it ACTUALLY works, then adapt it to fit my needs. A better understanding of everything will help me in my writing, too.

APDS and HESH rounds for the L7 are immortal.
Canada still uses stockpiles of these rounds for training/combat. They're still pulling out rounds with UK production dates of the early 1960s.
Remember, these rounds were made in the UK, stored poorly in Germany, shipped to Canada, and stored poorly again, over the course of 50+ years. And HESH was still working in A'Stan just fine.

At the risk of sounding stupid, where is the most ideal place to store ammunition safely in an MBT while also being capable of using something like the M1A2's blowout panel [I think that's what it's called] where it also will be fairly easy for the loader to handle.

The turret bustle?