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Military Ground Vehicles of Your Nation [NO MECHS] Tranche 7

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:35 pm

Snjorlandio wrote:Right two piece ammunition how does it work?

Image
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Lydenburg
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Postby Lydenburg » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:36 pm

Rich and Corporations wrote:
Lydenburg wrote:
Plain HEAT is good for taking out bunkers, static fortifications, and anything lighter than a tank (such as an LAV), which SABOT wasn't designed to handle.

Are we talking about plain GLATGM or top-attack GLATGM.

In anycase, avoiding a rocket motor is probably simplest.


In general, although I didn't have any top-attack projectiles like LAHAT in mind.

Ek bly in Australie nou, maar Afrika sal altyd in my hart wees. Maak nie saak wat gebeur nie, ek is trots om te kan sê ek is 'n kind van hierdie ingewikkelde soms wrede kontinent. Mis jou altyd my Suid-Afrika, hier met n seer hart al die pad van Melbourne af!


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Yukonastan
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Postby Yukonastan » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:37 pm

Yukonastan wrote:(Image)

Vehicle-mount version of this, assuming I can do the "multiple-tube" trick, or is it only really worth it if you go with guided?


Retoast 'cause the discussion about two-piece ammunition got this ignored.

Concept is to take the rockets from this and launch them from a vehicle-mounted multiple launcher. Practical, why or why not?
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:39 pm

Snjorlandio wrote:Right two piece ammunition how does it work?

Well the Soviet Union and Russia have used/are using them so i think it is safe to say they work.

That said using two piece ammunition in tern limits the size of the penetrator you can use, which means that two piece ammunition can have problems with penetration. Please note I said can, there are ways that Russia has apparently gotten around this.
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Lydenburg
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Postby Lydenburg » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:46 pm

Yukonastan wrote:
Yukonastan wrote:(Image)

Vehicle-mount version of this, assuming I can do the "multiple-tube" trick, or is it only really worth it if you go with guided?


Retoast 'cause the discussion about two-piece ammunition got this ignored.

Concept is to take the rockets from this and launch them from a vehicle-mounted multiple launcher. Practical, why or why not?


Sure, why not? There are multirole launchers out there that can alternatively fire mortar rounds, ATGMs, or unguided rockets from an MLRS as long as they're of a similar calibre.

Ek bly in Australie nou, maar Afrika sal altyd in my hart wees. Maak nie saak wat gebeur nie, ek is trots om te kan sê ek is 'n kind van hierdie ingewikkelde soms wrede kontinent. Mis jou altyd my Suid-Afrika, hier met n seer hart al die pad van Melbourne af!


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Snjorlandio
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Postby Snjorlandio » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:54 pm

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Snjorlandio wrote:Right two piece ammunition how does it work?

Well the Soviet Union and Russia have used/are using them so i think it is safe to say they work.

That said using two piece ammunition in tern limits the size of the penetrator you can use, which means that two piece ammunition can have problems with penetration. Please note I said can, there are ways that Russia has apparently gotten around this.

so what's the benefit over single piece

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Purpelia
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:55 pm

Snjorlandio wrote:so what's the benefit over single piece

If you have a human loader, it's much easier for him to load two lighter pieces one at a time than one huge piece. If you have an autoloader, it lets you split the overall length in half so that the magazine fits under the crew.
Last edited by Purpelia on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Questers
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Postby Questers » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:56 pm

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Snjorlandio wrote:Right two piece ammunition how does it work?

Well the Soviet Union and Russia have used/are using them so i think it is safe to say they work.

That said using two piece ammunition in tern limits the size of the penetrator you can use, which means that two piece ammunition can have problems with penetration. Please note I said can, there are ways that Russia has apparently gotten around this.
Russian FS-APDS do not match Western single-piece FS-APDS, so no. (Or Western two-piece FS-APDS.)

In two piece ammunition the charge and penetrator are separate, whereas in single piece ammunition they're integral. Theyre mounted in a cassette and a mechanism is used to assemble them before entry into the breech.

Here's a 9M112 Kobra ATGM in a 125-mm T-64 cassette. The vertical thing is the charge; the horizontal is the missile warhead.

Image
Last edited by Questers on Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Purpelia
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Postby Purpelia » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:58 pm

Overall it's just one of those things that are more trouble than they are worth. Yes, if you jump on the bandwagon early enough you can get some incredible results with low profile vehicles using bustle autoloaders. But as time advances the length restrictions start making more and more trouble for any upgrade program until eventually you just have to give it up.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Questers
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Postby Questers » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:59 pm

Pretty much.
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:00 pm

Rich and Corporations wrote:
Questers wrote: FS-APDS development.
I thought the Soviets were developing two-piece rounds before bankruptcy.
You're doing the cryptic thing again. Stop it. It does not make you smart and neither does it make whatever point you're trying to prove more (or less) valid.
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Rich and Corporations
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Postby Rich and Corporations » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:07 pm

Spirit of Hope wrote:
Snjorlandio wrote:Right two piece ammunition how does it work?

Well the Soviet Union and Russia have used/are using them so i think it is safe to say they work.

That said using two piece ammunition in tern limits the size of the penetrator you can use, which means that two piece ammunition can have problems with penetration. Please note I said can, there are ways that Russia has apparently gotten around this.

It's probably as complex as a Macabees extending rod though.
Questers wrote:You're doing the cryptic thing again. Stop it. It does not make you smart and neither does it make whatever point you're trying to prove more (or less) valid.
Spirit mentioned it.
Purpelia wrote:Overall it's just one of those things that are more trouble than they are worth. Yes, if you jump on the bandwagon early enough you can get some incredible results with low profile vehicles using bustle autoloaders. But as time advances the length restrictions start making more and more trouble for any upgrade program until eventually you just have to give it up.
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San-Silvacian
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Postby San-Silvacian » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:13 pm

Purpelia wrote:
Snjorlandio wrote:so what's the benefit over single piece

If you have a human loader, it's much easier for him to load two lighter pieces one at a time than one huge piece. If you have an autoloader, it lets you split the overall length in half so that the magazine fits under the crew.


No it isn't easier. Its harder.

Two-piece was great for the autoloader they used.
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:25 pm

The Russians still make some capable HEAT munitions. The problem is their superlow velocity.
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Krazakistan
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Postby Krazakistan » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:26 pm

Questers wrote:
Krazakistan wrote:Well shit. :T
The best the Soviets got out of the 2-piece carousel autoloaders was probably the 3BM42, which had an upgrade for the T-90 (3BM42M) that apparently can't fit in T-72 carousels. They also had the 3BM46 which is DU (BM42 is WHA.) Confusingly the 42 is 'Mang'o, 46 'Svinets', but 42M 'Svinets-1.' All these rounds have a mv of about 1700ms and a perforation of about 600mm RHA (give or take 10%.) This represents the peak of Soviet - and Russian - FS-APDS development.

Alright, so I guess I'm going to have to rely on GLATGMs for taking out anything the FS-APDS rounds can't, then.

But apparently, the Black Eagle's autoloader does not put limitations on the dimensions of the rounds (it's still two piece) due to it being a bustle mounted autoloader and magazine. With that in mind, would there be anything preventing high penetration 2-piece KEPs with that autoloader in mind?
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The Kievan People
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Postby The Kievan People » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:37 pm

Or you could use a better autoloader.

Lengths limits have nothing to do with two-piece ammunition, really. Two piece ammunition is often used when the maximum available length is limited but how long the pieces will be is determined by the space available, not be the ammunition itself. There is nothing to say each piece of a two-piece round can't be a meter long.
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San-Silvacian
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Postby San-Silvacian » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:48 pm

or just use T-72-120
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Krazakistan
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Postby Krazakistan » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:52 pm

The Kievan People wrote:Or you could use a better autoloader.

Lengths limits have nothing to do with two-piece ammunition, really. Two piece ammunition is often used when the maximum available length is limited but how long the pieces will be is determined by the space available, not be the ammunition itself. There is nothing to say each piece of a two-piece round can't be a meter long.

Is there a problem with the Black Eagle's autoloader?

San-Silvacian wrote:or just use T-72-120


Can't. IC reasons.
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Postby Vancon » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:56 pm

Can someone make a list of the tank acronyms for those of us who want to learn yet don't?
Such as but not limited to:
HEAT
ERA
L (ie L50 120mm cannon)
ATGM
Sabot
FS-APD
etc...

I know some of these, but not all of them.
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Postby Tarsas » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:02 pm

Krazakistan wrote:
The Kievan People wrote:Or you could use a better autoloader.

Lengths limits have nothing to do with two-piece ammunition, really. Two piece ammunition is often used when the maximum available length is limited but how long the pieces will be is determined by the space available, not be the ammunition itself. There is nothing to say each piece of a two-piece round can't be a meter long.

Is there a problem with the Black Eagle's autoloader?

San-Silvacian wrote:or just use T-72-120


Can't. IC reasons.


Elaborate on your "IC reasons" that you can't use the T-72-120.

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Yukonastan
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Postby Yukonastan » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:04 pm

Vancon wrote:Can someone make a list of the tank acronyms for those of us who want to learn yet don't?
Such as but not limited to:
HEAT
ERA
L (ie L50 120mm cannon)
ATGM
Sabot
FS-APD
etc...

I know some of these, but not all of them.

High Explosive Anti Tank
Explosive Reactive Armor
Length of the gun in calibres ie a 120mm L/55 gun is 55 calibres long.
Anti-tank Guided Missile
Sabot sits around a subcalibre munition to allow it to ride a standard bore.
Fin-Stabilized Armor-Piercing Discarding Sabot, (FS-APDS) Armor Piercng Fin Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS)
Last edited by Yukonastan on Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spirit of Hope
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Postby Spirit of Hope » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:06 pm

Vancon wrote:Can someone make a list of the tank acronyms for those of us who want to learn yet don't?
Such as but not limited to:
HEAT
ERA
L (ie L50 120mm cannon)
ATGM
Sabot
FS-APD
etc...

I know some of these, but not all of them.

I can take a stab at it. Note my definitions are not the best and may be confusing, for more information click the links and read on wikipedia.

APS: Active Protective Systems, broken down into Hard Kill and Soft Kill. Hard Kill physically destroys or deflects the incoming projectile, Soft Kill jams sensors or stops projectiles form locking on.
RWS: Remote Weapon Station, a weapon system on the outside of the vehicle controlled from the inside.
HEAT: High Explosive Anti Tank, essentially creates a "jet" of plasma to penetrate enemy armor.
HESH: High Explosive Squash Head, Anti tank weapon that coats outside armor with high explosives, when the explosives detonate they create a shock wave breaking off internal pieces of the tank and killing/injuring crew.
ERA: Explosive Reactive Armor, armor that explodes when it with enough energy. Increases protection
NERA: Non Explosive Reactive Armor, rumor like armor that expands when hit energetically enough, increasing protection levels.
L (as in L50) is a measure of the length of a tank gun. The number following behind the L is a multiplayer of the guns diameter to get the length. Thus a 120mm L55 gun is 6,600mm (6.6 meters) long.
ATGM: Anti Tank Guided Missile, a missile for killing tanks that is guided in some way. There are a lot of ways to guide a missile. Generally HEAT though there are some KE variants.
GLATGM: Gun Launched Anti Tank Guided Missile, a anti tank guided missile launched from a tanks main gun.
Sabot: A case for holding the actual bullet when it is smaller than the barrel.
FS-APD, or APFSDS: Armor Piercing, Fin Stabilized Discarded Sabot. A specific type of tank round, essentially a long thin projectile is fired because the projectile is smaller than the barrel it must be contained in a sabot to get the required speeds, the sabot falls off after firing.
KE: Kinetic Energy, usually used to describe one method of killing tanks
CE: Chemical Energy, usually used to describe the other method for killing tanks.

AFV: Armored Fighting Vehicle, all armored vehicles.
APC: Armored Personnel Carrier, usually a lightly armored lightly gunned vehicle for transporting infantry
IFV: Infantry Fighting Vehicle, usually more heavily armored and gunned than an APC for transporting and supporting infantry
MBT: Main Battle Tank, the main tank of a nation
MRAP: Mine Resistant Ambush Protected, a combat vehicle desgined to be resistant to mines and IEDs.
SPG: Self Propelled Gun, artillery that moves itself without the need of another vehicle to tow it.
SPAA: Self Propelled Anti Air, a mobile vehicle with dedicated to anti air use. Sometimes called SPAAG (Self Propelled Anti Air Gun) or SPAD (Self Propelled Air Defense)

I'll edit in more if people ask me, and links to Wikipedia and other places as I find/think of them.
Last edited by Spirit of Hope on Sun Aug 31, 2014 9:28 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Vancon
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Postby Vancon » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:09 pm

It'd be great if this was on the OP so new people, or the tank illiterate, can quickly learn or at least understand what people are saying.
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Krazakistan
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Postby Krazakistan » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:20 pm

Tarsas wrote:
Krazakistan wrote:Is there a problem with the Black Eagle's autoloader?



Can't. IC reasons.


Elaborate on your "IC reasons" that you can't use the T-72-120.


Not on the best terms with NATO/Western countries, and already have trade and arms deals with Russia.

This was brought up before, actually.
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Postby The Kievan People » Wed Aug 20, 2014 8:24 pm

That hardly compels you to use a carousel autoloader.
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