The NS Infantry Discussion Thread, Model 4

[Allanea]

This hardly relates, however, to the original point of the debate.

[EsToVnIa]

This hardly relates, however, to the original point of the debate.

It does, however, relate to the fact that the discussion is off-topic

[Arkandros]

Sorry, taking it to TG. I leave with an actual infantry idea: alt-history NotAxis NotAmerica Stg44 in .44 magnum; Y/N?

Why the fuck not?

Well, the obvious answer is because ".44 magnum SMG is stupid!" I assume I didn't get the edit up before your reply, so my question was more asking if the larger weight and size of a Stg44 relative to the average SMG could compensate for the greatly increased recoil and muzzle climb of the .44 magnum cartridge, when fired at 700-800 rounds/min.

[Spreewerke]

Why the fuck not?

Well, the obvious answer is because ".44 magnum SMG is stupid!" I assume I didn't get the edit up before your reply, so my question was more asking if the larger weight and size of a Stg44 relative to the average SMG could compensate for the greatly increased recoil and muzzle climb of the .44 magnum cartridge, when fired at 700-800 rounds/min.

It wouldn't end up being a .44 Magnum SMG. It would be a PDW.

[EsToVnIa]

Well, the obvious answer is because ".44 magnum SMG is stupid!" I assume I didn't get the edit up before your reply, so my question was more asking if the larger weight and size of a Stg44 relative to the average SMG could compensate for the greatly increased recoil and muzzle climb of the .44 magnum cartridge, when fired at 700-800 rounds/min.

It wouldn't end up being a .44 Magnum SMG. It would be a PDW.

The original MP44 was a PDW, after all.

[The Republic of Lanos]

It wouldn't end up being a .44 Magnum SMG. It would be a PDW.

The original MP44 was a PDW, after all.

Not this argument again.

[Arkandros]

The original MP44 was a PDW, after all.

Not this argument again.

would someone care to clarify the exact difference? If I understand the definition of a PDW correctly, I think a automatic .44 Magnum firearm would still be a SMG, as the .44 magnum is a standard pistol-caliber round, not a HV necked cartridge.

[Allanea]

The PDW is a myth invented by global militarist capitalism.

[New Tsavon]

The PDW is a myth invented by global militarist capitalism.

I thought it was to sell SMGs to mallninjas.

[Arkandros]

The PDW is a myth invented by global militarist capitalism.

I thought it was just because FN wanted to advertise their P90 as "SO MUTHERFOCKIN UNIQUE!"
According to wikipedia, it is the use of necked, HV rounds that determine what is and isn't a PDW.
For example:
PP-2000 in 9x19: SMG.
pp-2000 in 9x19 7N21 (a subcaliber 9x19): PDW.

[Puzikas]

Theres no real classification between PDW and SMG. The term PDW laps between SMG, Carbine, and somewhere inbetween

Its to fill the perceived gap between intermediates and pistols.


The PP-2000 however is always considered an SMG. Its bigger brother, The SR-2, might be better classified as a PDW

[EsToVnIa]

The PDW is a myth invented by global militarist capitalism.

I thought it was just because FN wanted to advertise their P90 as "SO MUTHERFOCKIN UNIQUE!"
According to wikipedia, it is the use of necked, HV rounds that determine what is and isn't a PDW.
For example:
PP-2000 in 9x19: SMG.
pp-2000 in 9x19 7N21 (a subcaliber 9x19): PDW.

The M1 Carbine is the first PDW

[Spreewerke]

Theres no real classification between PDW and SMG. The term PDW laps between SMG, Carbine, and somewhere inbetween

Its to fill the perceived gap between intermediates and pistols.


The PP-2000 however is always considered an SMG. Its bigger brother, The SR-2, might be better classified as a PDW

What would the PKM be? Isn't it a PDW? It defends your person while being a weapon, doesn't it?

[Allanea]

The PDW is a boojum, a chimera.

There's nothing a PDW does that cannot be accomplished better, and more cheaply by issuing M4A1s.

[Spreewerke]

The PDW is a boojum, a chimera.

There's nothing a PDW does that cannot be accomplished better, and more cheaply by issuing M4A1s.

You misspelled AKS-74U. Do you even slavperate?

[Allanea]

This is a valid point, I apologize.

[Arkandros]

I'm headed off to bed, but I figured I'd give you guys a link to the "professional" comparison of the recoil of a .44 Magnum against .50 AE done by Guns & Ammo. (I was trying to get an idea of how IMI does its .44 Magnum clips, for potential reference on the Stg44 .44 Magnum)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTwsk1eA2es

[EsToVnIa]

OAL: 800 mm (stock extended); 600 mm (stock folded)
Cartridge: Some PDW round with a really high pressure. (Might just elongate standard issued pistol round)
Fed by quadstack-60 round mags

Realized that something like this, doctrinally, would be the ideal standard issued rifle for the Estovnian military given the close combat ranges that would be expected in a defensive war.

[Padnak]

The PDW is a myth invented by global militarist capitalism.

Stonk truthful nations like the soviet union russian federation don't have PDWs, they have carbines and sub machine guns

[San-Silvacian]

(Image)

OAL: 800 mm (stock extended); 600 mm (stock folded)
Cartridge: Some PDW round with a really high pressure. (Might just elongate standard issued pistol round)
Fed by quadstack-60 round mags

Realized that something like this, doctrinally, would be the ideal standard issued rifle for the Estovnian military given the close combat ranges that would be expected in a defensive war.

Worst gun.

[Allanea]

What is the purpose of issuing a firearm like this?

You've got the size, and practically the weight, of a rifle with only the firepower of a PDW.

Also, why are close ranges expected in a defensive war? It doesn't seem to follow.

[EsToVnIa]

What is the purpose of issuing a firearm like this?

What isn't the purpose?

You've got the size, and practically the weight, of a rifle with only the firepower of a PDW.

No, I have a carbine, and practically the weight of an MP5A2, with the firepower equivalent to/possibly exceeding an AK-74.

Also, why are close ranges expected in a defensive war? It doesn't seem to follow.

Taiga is rather close knit.

[The Archangel Conglomerate]

The PP-2000 however is always considered an SMG. Its bigger brother, The SR-2, might be better classified as a PDW

Odd. I'd have figured it to be the other way around.

---

(Image)

OAL: 800 mm (stock extended); 600 mm (stock folded)
Cartridge: Some PDW round with a really high pressure. (Might just elongate standard issued pistol round)
Fed by quadstack-60 round mags

Realized that something like this, doctrinally, would be the ideal standard issued rifle for the Estovnian military given the close combat ranges that would be expected in a defensive war.

Top notch art as always. Perhaps a MARS-esque shortening of your intermediate cartridge? It'd likely perform better than the stretched pistol round, and allow for the same barrels to be used. Just a thought.

[Aqizithiuda]

The first reference to a PDW that I can find was a study for a weapon to replace the M1911 used by U.S. Army helicopter pilots, as data collected in Vietnam suggested the pilots did not like the weight or magazine capacity. The prefered candidate was a 9mm M1911 clone, IIRC. It, may, however, have been attached to the earlier IMP-221 program run by the Air Force, though I have no proof for or against that position other than the weapon was considered by the army and rejected on size, bulk and weight grounds.

The term seems to have been subsequently reused in other contexts, becoming much more nebulous and hard to define.

[Imperializt Russia]

Clearly we should buy Padnak a machete.


A machete blade is fairly dull and not very stabby.

Take a note from this cautionary tale.

This site needs more milthreadball.

No, I wouldn't of been. Vietnam lasted 20 years and cost millions of lives. By war's standards, both World Wars were over really quickly, but the consequences of both were massive.
I used those wars as examples as they all lasted a long ass time, cost a shit load of lives and caused massive suffering to pretty much everyone involved, contrary to what Sherman's quote claimed would happen if you try your very best to fuck the enemy as much as possible.

There was no plan for victory in Vietnam.

There was a plan for victory for the US, it was just hopelessly vague.
"Bail out the French, crush communism".

Ho Chi Minh had a slightly less vague and easily-played goal - reject invaders. He found it quite easy to play this with the civil population. Communism is quite alluring to peasant farmers.

And again. What possible strategy could the Allies have adopted in 1939 or 1941 to finish the war sooner, which was within their technological reach in the time period, (i.e. not guided weapons or nukes), and at a meaningfully smaller amount of casualties?

Just a comment:

The strategic bombing campaign in Europe was probably not cost effective, when you consider that German industrial output continued to expand throughout the war, that the political power and authority of the Nazi regime was never seriously threatened as a result of any supposed "demoralizing effect" that the bombing had on the German population, and when you take into account the huge material cost of the strategic bombing program.

As much as 40 to 50 percent of the British war effort went into the RAF, and the USAAF consumed as much as 25-35 percent of US industrial output, large amounts of those resources went to the strategic bombing offensive (RAF Bomber Command accounted for less than a quarter of the RAF, yet used the most factory space and labor). RAF Bomber Command lost 8,325 bombers and 64,000 aircrew, and the USAAF lost 8,237 bombers and 73,000 crew (which exceeds the total USN and USMC casualties in the Pacific).

Now, I'm not saying it had no effect. Forcing Germany to divert resources into air and civil defense deprived the Heer of men and material, and the attacks on oil and nitrate production were quite effective. All in all though, I don't think it was worth the huge cost. A more limited bombing campaign focusing on key sectors like oil production would have freed up resources for fighter production and tactical bombing.

In any event, the results of the strategic bombing campaign definitely did not line up with the predictions of Bomber Mafia theorists of the '20s and '30s.

Consider that if industry is expanding during intense bombing campaign, imagine its progress if unmolested. It was relatively early in the war that war-effort-only bombing was abandoned because "well, they'll just build a new factory", and they started mass-firebombing civilians instead.

You haven't taken into account that there really was no such thing as precision bombing during the majority of WWII. The earliest guided bombs were used by the Germans against allied warships around 1943 with the Fritz X, and the Allies did not get similar technology until mid 1944 with the Azon (which was much less controllable than the Fritz X). Because of this, the only way to hit a small target (like a railway to disrupt supplies, or a small forward AA position) during the majority of the European Theater operations was through sheer saturation. Because of this, massive amounts of resources had to be devoted to bombers, simply due to the sheer size of the planes themselves and the amount of ordinance required.

On the other hand, sending those bombers to bomb targets that actually mattered like factories, oil refineries etc. would have been a step in the right direction.

They were. They were just bombing civilians by the million, so they couldn't go and fight, or work in the factories.

On the other hand, sending those bombers to bomb targets that actually mattered like factories, oil refineries etc. would have been a step in the right direction.

We did. What do you mean, we didn't bomb factories? Those were some of the major targets of allied bombing raids, along with supply depots. What you're thinking of (bombing of population centers) was done either because that's where the factories/refineries/supplies were, or because they were major population centers and the bombings were psychological attacks.

"If you bomb all their factories, they just build a new one. If you let me bomb all their workers, it'll take them twenty-one years to get new ones".
~words of some Bomber Command bigwig, advocating mass bombing of civilians.

So you're saying the psychological effect of ~50% of your city disappearing in a fireball wouldn't make you rethink your support of a war? One that your country is quite blatantly losing? Damn, you're one resilient patriot. (or fucking insane, take your pick)

Historically, targeting of civilians does little but steel a country's resolve.
Just look at the "spirit of the Blitz".

I'm going to use 7.92mm rounds even up to this day.

What?

And? 7.62x54 and x39 bullets are 7.92mm in diameter.

The PDW is a myth invented by global militarist capitalism.

PDW is a role that overlaps many designs and types and other roles.

The PDW is a myth invented by global militarist capitalism.

I thought it was just because FN wanted to advertise their P90 as "SO MUTHERFOCKIN UNIQUE!"
According to wikipedia, it is the use of necked, HV rounds that determine what is and isn't a PDW.
For example:
PP-2000 in 9x19: SMG.
pp-2000 in 9x19 7N21 (a subcaliber 9x19): PDW.

Do not, that is DO NOT pay attention to what Wikipedia believes to be the difference between firearm classifications.

The community their go so long as to proclaim the former Czech Republic "wrong" for calling the Vz.58 a "submachine gun" (one possible translation of its official title, samopal).

(Image)

OAL: 800 mm (stock extended); 600 mm (stock folded)
Cartridge: Some PDW round with a really high pressure. (Might just elongate standard issued pistol round)
Fed by quadstack-60 round mags

Realized that something like this, doctrinally, would be the ideal standard issued rifle for the Estovnian military given the close combat ranges that would be expected in a defensive war.

Aesthetically, the casket flaring could be higher up the magazine and near the magazine well. It typically was on AK-platform casket magazines.