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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:18 am
by Questers
Nationstates Military Realism Consultation Thread No. 6


What is this thread?

This is a thread where we discuss how to make militaries realistic. If you have questions, feel free to ask: in ninety-five% of cases you'll get an answer on the same page. Sometimes more than one. If you have something to contribute please do, although please don't spout garbage over the thread.

Just be aware that anything you do post is open to criticism. If you don't like that, don't post. This is a discussion thread. We discuss things.

What is realism?

Of course, nobody can expect to portray exactly what would happen in the scenarios we're envisaging. There are so many conditions that models are very hard to produce. So maybe realism is a bad word. What we can use instead is Authenticity. We want things to look as if they could be real, not necessarily be real itself. In other words, it has to look, sound, and be believable.

Why are some things not realistic?

(1) The first and obvious answer is they are just straight up departures from reality. Tanks that weight two-hundred tons, an Army with twenty-percent of the country's population, ships a kilometre long, etc etc. This thread can help with that, but broadly speaking – if it has been tried before and failed, or never tried before and clearly very different from anything in real life, it's probably not realistic/authentic.

(2) The second most common reason is that they are tropes. A trope is a frequently recurring literary/rhetorical/plot tool that appears many many times in the broad scope of media. We can call it a meme too. And I say media, because it is media only. Let me tell you this: anything you saw in a film, in an anime, or read in a fiction book at any one time should not be considered applicable for realism. If it is a historical fact or a historical trend, it is much more likely to be realistic. We want our posts and our imaginary militaries to feel as if they could really exist. That's why it's a realism thread.

(3) The third most common reason is doing things which are obviously a bad idea according to contemporary thinking. Building battleships in 1940 is not a bad idea according to the people who ran the show then. Building a wooden ship would have been. Generally speaking, any plot device that has an obvious and powerful flaw that has to stay for a contrived reason is diabola ex machina (or deus ex machina) and it makes seeing something as realistic virtually impossible.

Who hosts the thread?

The next thread host will be selected via nomination in the ordinary manner when the thread approaches closing.

Useful links
I'll try to make a compendium of useful links here. Feel free to post any; I will start with the ones on the previous thread. PLEASE contribute to this!

Naval
Naval weapons & technology page
Naval resources page
Air
Ground
Doctrine
TO&E
UK TOEs
very helpful TOE listings
Soviet MR Division structure
Soviet MR Regiment structure
Technology
Nuclear stuff
Effects of Nuclear Weapons (Federation of American Scientists)
EMP Effects of Nuclear Weapons (Federation of American Scientists)
Effects of Nuclear Weapons (Princeton University [pdf])
Other
Wargaming Combat Resolution Model

Thread #1
Thread #2
Thread #3
Thread #4
Thread #5

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:19 am
by Themiclesia
Still don't have the answer about the Hanfu in battle...

I'm rather anxious about it. It looks really aesthetically compelling but also has a great potential to be fatal.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:24 am
by Kouralia
Thank God someone made
Another one of these threads. They're
Good for procrastinating revision.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:37 am
by Oaledonia
Fourth :c

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:42 am
by Gallia-
1st after oale-chan :3

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:45 am
by Primordial Luxa
Good job Quester

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:46 am
by New Tsavon
Seventh

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:48 am
by Gallia-

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:49 am
by Triplebaconation


I thought you said to stop shitposting. :shock:

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:50 am
by New Tsavon

Never. Or should I say, "newer"?

Nice aircraft, by the way. However, I'm afraid I'm nowhere near knowledgeable enough to comment on the technical parts of that article. Or any of it, really.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:58 am
by Romic
Would it be out of the relm of possibility to have spies move into a county that runs itself much like North Korea by mini sub dispatched by regular sub?

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 6:59 am
by Gallia-
Triplebaconation wrote:


I thought you said to stop shitposting. :shock:


wow

truly hurtful ;~;

it might as well be a betrayal

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:05 am
by Crookfur
Romic wrote:Would it be out of the relm of possibility to have spies move into a county that runs itself much like North Korea by mini sub dispatched by regular sub?


If you mean a Swimmer Delivery Vehicle type thingy then it would in theory be possible.As to how succesful it be a lot would depend on how they wank thier eternally watched shorelines and riversides.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:08 am
by Gallia-
One Coastal Forces hut every 5 km.

Manned by two Navy SEAL tier Spetsnas murder machines each.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:11 am
by Crookfur
Gallia- wrote:One Coastal Forces hut every 5 km.

Manned by two Navy SEAL tier Spetsnas murder machines each.


So under prepared

not even a single roving trained death squid or mutated sea bass.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:12 am
by Gallia-
Crookfur wrote:
Gallia- wrote:One Coastal Forces hut every 5 km.

Manned by two Navy SEAL tier Spetsnas murder machines each.


So under prepared

not even a single roving trained death squid or mutated sea bass.


this is 200 meters before you hit turbo atlantikwall with RIM-161s for shooting down spy satellites i guess ):

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:13 am
by Imperializt Russia
Crookfur wrote:
Gallia- wrote:One Coastal Forces hut every 5 km.

Manned by two Navy SEAL tier Spetsnas murder machines each.


So under prepared

not even a single roving trained death squid or mutated sea bass.

Weak.
Not even escalating to Divisional Sharktopus.

Good day, I guess.

The talk about doctrine the other day made me realise I've never had a doctrine.
I also quite liked the phrase "strategic depth", and actually having one, that could be used.
Image
Registug is a very close ally. The south-east border is known as the "Samozniy Plateau". I admit, I was never certain what its terrain was actually like. It's relatively high above sea level, and in any case, forces are unlikely to come over it. Deis Land and the UIR are a close ally and an inactive (ambivalent) puppet, respectively, no further threat.
To the south lies "The Seven States". Not hostile, but it's as close as I come to a border threat. I have no reason to invade the Seven States (I'd likely get roflstomped), but because the northern part of the country (north of the Strait) is mountainous and forested and largely allied, the south is where the bulk of my army would be stationed.
http://i.imgur.com/Tf7KTOQ.png
I also own the "New Samoz(niy) Republic", where the bulk of my strategic nuclear arsenal is stationed, and the coastline is home to my shipyards and the balance of the People's Fighting Navy's naval bases.

A future war with the United Socialist States of Velkanika will escalate against my close political ally, Registug (it's escalated from a political "war", which itself escalated from a war of spies). On account of both being Soviet successor states, my position is that I don't want to fight Velk. But I don't want him to fight Regi.
For simplicity's sake, I'm going to deny use of the Canal to the Velkaniky Navy, as well as airspace use. This would force him to take an enormous route out of the inland sea, seriously delaying his naval forces, and also limiting his ability to deploy air power. The Seven States are pretty neutral to all of us, so I don't believe they'd offer airspace use to the Velkaniky Air Force. However, Velkanika operates a very large airbase out of Anastasiy Island that could probably take strategic aircraft. Again, the issue is getting there, and sending aircraft through my own air defences to reach Regi.

This would put political pressure upon him, and logistical strain, giving Regi time to mobilise. But it also directly risks thrusting me into the war myself (an intended consequence - I gravitate towards the conflict at some point anyway).

I have no idea how Velk intends to fight an expeditionary war, or how I might myself. Neither of my territories share a land border with Velk, so either I play the whole war on the defensive or I throw several additional megatons of munition into D-Day. I have the naval and air capability to assault his shore, certainly.
Nirvash is, I think, an allied state. Shangsu is allied to Regi, I think Mongol Steppes is an alt of Regi's, and Germania is probably a neutral power that would tend towards Velk.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:13 am
by Oaledonia
Crookfur wrote:
Gallia- wrote:One Coastal Forces hut every 5 km.

Manned by two Navy SEAL tier Spetsnas murder machines each.


So under prepared

not even a single roving trained death squid or mutated sea bass.

Giant Atlantic walls on all sides.

FakeEdit: Being ninja'd makes me sad.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:15 am
by Gallia-
Oaledonia wrote:
Crookfur wrote:
So under prepared

not even a single roving trained death squid or mutated sea bass.

Giant Atlantic walls on all sides.

FakeEdit: Being ninja'd makes me sad.


what is "fakeedit"

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:17 am
by Oaledonia
Gallia- wrote:
Oaledonia wrote:Giant Atlantic walls on all sides.

FakeEdit: Being ninja'd makes me sad.


what is "fakeedit"

I was going to post but saw you had already made the joke, so I just wrote that in there.
On a side note, I'll post my doctrine inspired by Samoz :3

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:29 am
by Imperializt Russia
I didn't post a doctrine, I posted my broad situation and how I didn't have a doctrine :P

Broadly speaking, I don't expect to be invaded in the north of the country or along the canal itself, but on the southern land border or that spit-like formation to the west.
Or through Regi's border, in the event that my supporting him fails and Registug is defeated. But that's variously unlikely. Hopefully.

I have a very large naval force. At the time of the war, it will be beginning a total overhaul. At present, it is almost entirely comprised of Soviet-era vessels, plus the Ulyanovsk-class carriers. Controlling the east and western extents of the inland sea probably gives me an edge over Velkanika's newer vessels, and allows the operation of maritime patrol and ASW aircraft over almost the entire sea.
Reflecting the blue-water navy requirement that my situation requires, carriers are now a key component of the navy and operate offensively as American-style carrier groups.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:29 am
by Questers
Image

an easier to read TOE of my spreadsheet whoring

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:32 am
by Oaledonia
Imperializt Russia wrote:I didn't post a doctrine, I posted my broad situation and how I didn't have a doctrine :P

Broadly speaking, I don't expect to be invaded in the north of the country or along the canal itself, but on the southern land border or that spit-like formation to the west.
Or through Regi's border, in the event that my supporting him fails and Registug is defeated. But that's variously unlikely. Hopefully.

I have a very large naval force. At the time of the war, it will be beginning a total overhaul. At present, it is almost entirely comprised of Soviet-era vessels, plus the Ulyanovsk-class carriers. Controlling the east and western extents of the inland sea probably gives me an edge over Velkanika's newer vessels, and allows the operation of maritime patrol and ASW aircraft over almost the entire sea.
Reflecting the blue-water navy requirement that my situation requires, carriers are now a key component of the navy and operate offensively as American-style carrier groups.


It's hard to describe my situation without a map, but it's similar to America or Japan. Instead, I don't have the money to counter both naval threats on both sides with carrier groups or fleets. So instead, I have the more violant Western seas guarded by my carrier groups while the East is guarded by cheap AShMs and costal defense.

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:38 am
by Registug
I have a massive backlog on military things, namely the new IFV I was supposed to design

Mongolia is my alt, but I play it separately. It's aligned to Velk

PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:39 am
by Imperializt Russia
Registug wrote:I have a massive backlog on military things, namely the new IFV I was supposed to design

Regi, did I get anything wrong in my summary of things for Icebox above?