NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

[Triplebaconation]

DU was common in aircraft until it became un-PC. It's dumb as armor, though.

As ammunition, of course, but that's not what I was getting at.
DU ammunition is fun and easily worth the weight.

Nah. A 747 could use a ton and a half.

[Anemos Major]

DU was common in aircraft until it became un-PC. It's dumb as armor, though.

As ammunition, of course, but that's not what I was getting at.
DU ammunition is fun and easily worth the weight.

Its role on aircraft was a limited one that essentially necessitated the use of a dense material like DU, though (weights on trim tabs). It's not quite the same as employing it wholesale in the construction of an aircraft.

And it is dumb as armour, but it tends to be alloyed precisely because of that in that capacity.

[The Corparation]

I doubt an Orion would generate much EMP since the explosions are relatively tiny and it's hard to see one operating at LEO, really.

As our friend "ARC-chan" has noted, it was a serious project - except for the space battleship, maybe.

Actually I think an Orion operating in LEO would be very visible. At least when it was maneuvering with the main drive. One of the reports I've read has a portion on the possibility of eye damage to people observing the craft. (It goes on to say that eye protection isn't needed when its above the 90km mark, which is a ways short of LEO), but the fact they considered indicates that they believed the detonations would be very visible. In addition the long distances at which space based nuclear tests were visible also lend credence to the drive being visible, although the much lower yield of the pulse units wouldn't be visible as far away as those tests were.

When the drive isn't operating an Orion vessel would also likely still be visible to the naked eye at night as it passed overhead, at least during parts of its orbit. You could pick out the Shuttle with your naked eye with little difficulty, and an Orion would be much bigger than a shuttle.

[Velkanika]

Bullshit, the MGS works perfectly fine.

It's a piece of rubbish. Too heavy for its job (nearly 19t without applique - the Army's ended up issuing a RFI for an 'Ultra Light Combat Vehicle' that ostensibly fills the niche the Stryker family was probably meant to fill), questionable autoloader reliability and complexity, failure-prone computer systems, persistent vehicle cooling problems, suspension problems associated with the turret, recoil issues as mentioned above that can't be resolved for fear of infringing upon its infantry support role and a fair bit more.

The impression I get is that the crew like the idea and its paper-functionality, but that all of that's been implemented so poorly they'd rather go back to their old vehicles.

I stand corrected, the MGS could have really used a more realistic testing phase.

[Prekonate]

Ok, I wish to acquire some help for creating the military of a completely new nation I've made for this world which I plan to use for a long while. Ultimately I also plan make this nation a stratocracy which is not a Burma/NK esque hell hole. The nation in question is the State Khanate of Zataria (note: Khan is seen more as a military rank than anything else; in other words a product of Zatarian westernisation). It is ultimately a quasi fascist version of the USSR which far more land and is in a three way Cold War between the Free state of America and a huge communist bloc. It is a ecomincally developed country, relying on a state dirigisme of subsides and taxes to avoid the country investing in unstable fads. However it lost much of the resources it needs to fund this industry when the country was forced to secede my worlds equal to Central Asia. Zataria wishes to regain control over the region's it lost and also spread its sphere of influence far beyond that by expanding its economic grasp as well. In other words it is seeking a stable hegemony to rule over. I wish to have some long term help with the flowing: equipment, tactics, weaponry, logistics, grand strategy, technology and realism. Some other factors to consider, Zataria is currently in the year 1958 (technology can leak into the 60s), is surrounded by neighbours who hate it but must comply with Zataria's demands as they simply wouldn't survive without them and it also lost the second Great War relatively strong as well.

A map of Zataria

You're asking for help with "equipment, tactics, weaponry, logistics, grand strategy, technology, and realism", which seems to indicate that you're starting from square one. Maybe contribute some ideas of your own, to get the ball rolling? I don't think anyone will be willing to research and construct your whole military for you.

[Padnak]

Thanks a whole ton everyone who answered!

Padnak is a major oil and petrochemical producer so setting up production would be fairly strait forward and could be conducted without a large amount of suspicion. I'd like to use chemical weapons both offensively against Vancon's population (its my friends nation and neighboring country that Padnak has a NK/SK type relation with, with a little more random warfare), and defensively as a last ditch weapon.

ATM I'm primarily going to concentrate on the fallowing agents:

-Sulfur mustard gas for use against the Vanconian population
-Cyclosarin for battlefield use
-VX for battlefield and against the Vanconian population
-Sarin for battlefield use
-VR
-Soman

Possibilities

-Phosgene oxime (haven't found any info on how its deployed)
-VM

Few more questions:
How difficult is it to develop new agents from existing ones or adapt existing ones to work better in the local environment?
How effective is PPE (personal protective equipment, gas masks and suits etc) when dealing with chemical agents, specifically nerve agents?

[The IASM]

Ok, I wish to acquire some help for creating the military of a completely new nation I've made for this world which I plan to use for a long while. Ultimately I also plan make this nation a stratocracy which is not a Burma/NK esque hell hole. The nation in question is the State Khanate of Zataria (note: Khan is seen more as a military rank than anything else; in other words a product of Zatarian westernisation). It is ultimately a quasi fascist version of the USSR which far more land and is in a three way Cold War between the Free state of America and a huge communist bloc. It is a ecomincally developed country, relying on a state dirigisme of subsides and taxes to avoid the country investing in unstable fads. However it lost much of the resources it needs to fund this industry when the country was forced to secede my worlds equal to Central Asia. Zataria wishes to regain control over the region's it lost and also spread its sphere of influence far beyond that by expanding its economic grasp as well. In other words it is seeking a stable hegemony to rule over. I wish to have some long term help with the flowing: equipment, tactics, weaponry, logistics, grand strategy, technology and realism. Some other factors to consider, Zataria is currently in the year 1958 (technology can leak into the 60s), is surrounded by neighbours who hate it but must comply with Zataria's demands as they simply wouldn't survive without them and it also lost the second Great War relatively strong as well.

A map of Zataria

You're asking for help with "equipment, tactics, weaponry, logistics, grand strategy, technology, and realism", which seems to indicate that you're starting from square one. Maybe contribute some ideas of your own, to get the ball rolling? I don't think anyone will be willing to research and construct your whole military for you.

Ok, I'll start and return eventually, any pointers?

[The Soodean Imperium]

Well, the absolute first place to start is to think about your military's "doctrine." Questers (who knows a good deal more about this than I do) describes it in the following terms:


Once you've answered these questions, start building a military that will match those answers. This involves a lot of work, but fortunately the internet has a surprising amount of good information on how real-life militaries work (provided you can sift out the unreliable sources). There are a few useful resources in the introductory post on this thread, and a lot more out on the web (or in print, if you want to go the extra mile) which you can have a look at.

One last thing to remember - when regulars on the realism-related threads give you advice, even if it's presented in a hostile tone, follow that advice. Trying to argue that it works because it looks cool, or claiming that everyone else is wrong and you're the only one who understands the subject, can dig you into a deep hole and give you a poor reputation.

Thank you for the help.

Where should I start looking? US military for information?

Again, it depends on your doctrine. If you're looking to do the same things the US military does/did under the same conditions, sure. If you're in a situation more similar to that of the USSR, then start looking at the Soviet military.

Judging by what you've described so far (a region-leading judicial power that needs expeditionary enforcement capabilities) I suspect you may want to look at West European militaries, particularly Britain or France. But there are other people on this thread who know a lot more about modern West European militaries than I do, so I suggest you get a little more input from them.

[Prekonate]

How difficult is it to develop new agents from existing ones or adapt existing ones to work better in the local environment?

This is going to depend on the specific structure; in many cases, making small chemical changes to a molecule will completely alter its properties, so it's tough to make changes to get chemical agents exactly the way you want them. In some cases you can use a "stabilizer", which is a complementary compound that prevents unwanted changes in the original compound -- for example, degradation in humid conditions. That will increase effectiveness in a given environment. Unfortunately I'm not sure if stabilizers exist for most/any weaponized chemicals, but that's something you could look into for the specific chemicals you're interested in.

As for developing new agents from existing ones, you might've noticed in your research that chemical agents are separated into multiple categories (nerve agents, blister agents, etc.). Once you understand how a certain chemical structure affects the body, you can target future synthesis efforts to include that structure; so, for nerve agents, there will generally be a phosphoryl, a good leaving group, and lipophilic groups. Once you know that, you can develop other agents with P=O + leaving group, and have a reasonable idea that they'll work in the same way. Studying existing agents can help you understand the effects of various structural groups on the body, but there's no guarantee that mixing and matching groups will give you the desired effect.

How effective is PPE (personal protective equipment, gas masks and suits etc) when dealing with chemical agents, specifically nerve agents?

Nerve agents work through the skin, so only a fully isolated suit and mask will be effective. Some less advanced chem agents (CS), enter the bloodstream (or act) through respiration, meaning that you only need a gas mask.

[Rich and Corporations]

As ammunition, of course, but that's not what I was getting at.
DU ammunition is fun and easily worth the weight.

Nah. A 747 could use a ton and a half.

would an RTG be better then useless DU?

[New Vihenia]

quick question.. How one measure "readiness" of an armed forces ?

[Purpelia]

quick question.. How one measure "readiness" of an armed forces ?

Fire a RPG-7 vaguely in their direction.

[Velkanika]

quick question.. How one measure "readiness" of an armed forces ?

How badly would they perform if a war started in 5 minutes?

[Rich and Corporations]

quick question.. How one measure "readiness" of an armed forces ?

How badly would they perform if a war started in 5 minutes?

pretty sure 5 minutes isn't even sufficient warning for a platoon in a war-ready state.

[Yukonastan]

It's a piece of rubbish. Too heavy for its job (nearly 19t without applique - the Army's ended up issuing a RFI for an 'Ultra Light Combat Vehicle' that ostensibly fills the niche the Stryker family was probably meant to fill), questionable autoloader reliability and complexity, failure-prone computer systems, persistent vehicle cooling problems, suspension problems associated with the turret, recoil issues as mentioned above that can't be resolved for fear of infringing upon its infantry support role and a fair bit more.

The impression I get is that the crew like the idea and its paper-functionality, but that all of that's been implemented so poorly they'd rather go back to their old vehicles.

I stand corrected, the MGS could have really used a more realistic testing phase.

Yeah. Good idea, piss-poor execution.

[The Akasha Colony]

Nah. A 747 could use a ton and a half.

would an RTG be better then useless DU?

You can't distribute an RTG to solve wing flutter in the engine nacelles.

[Velkanika]

How badly would they perform if a war started in 5 minutes?

pretty sure 5 minutes isn't even sufficient warning for a platoon in a war-ready state.

That's why you increase readiness as the threat level increases. Only the attacker knows precisely when combat will begin, so you have to be ready for it if war is imminent.

[Yukonastan]

would an RTG be better then useless DU?

You can't distribute an RTG to solve wing flutter in the engine nacelles.

Why not five tons of lead shielding around a nuclear reactor, to power electric motors that tension bracing wires?

[Padnak]

nuclear bombers...






yes

[Triplebaconation]

I doubt an Orion would generate much EMP since the explosions are relatively tiny and it's hard to see one operating at LEO, really.

As our friend "ARC-chan" has noted, it was a serious project - except for the space battleship, maybe.

Actually I think an Orion operating in LEO would be very visible. At least when it was maneuvering with the main drive. One of the reports I've read has a portion on the possibility of eye damage to people observing the craft. (It goes on to say that eye protection isn't needed when its above the 90km mark, which is a ways short of LEO), but the fact they considered indicates that they believed the detonations would be very visible. In addition the long distances at which space based nuclear tests were visible also lend credence to the drive being visible, although the much lower yield of the pulse units wouldn't be visible as far away as those tests were.

When the drive isn't operating an Orion vessel would also likely still be visible to the naked eye at night as it passed overhead, at least during parts of its orbit. You could pick out the Shuttle with your naked eye with little difficulty, and an Orion would be much bigger than a shuttle.

Actually the "see" was idiomatic.

[Gallia-]

Stryker is a terrible vehicle for other reasons. MGS is just icing on the cake.

Indeed.

Should have mounted a 75mm howitzer on top of the Gavin.

An even more shit vehicle.

[Grand Britannia]

Sexy people of NS Military realism, may I have your opinion on whether I'm doin' it right, or wrong you know.

[Spirit of Hope]

quick question.. How one measure "readiness" of an armed forces ?

It is essentially by levels of activity.
Lowest level your troops are carrying out every day activities, training, going on leave, regular stuff.

Next level might be recalling people from leave and not carrying out large or complicated exercises, instead doing stuff that can quickly be packed up.

Higher would be canceling all training, instead having troops prepping equipment and getting ready to move.

Last would be having troops sitting in transport waiting to go or moving to jump of points to actively engage hostiles.

Obviously as you get more "ready" for combat you have a fall off in training and cost goes up as equipment gets pulled out and ready for use. Generally forces stay at the lower level unless their is some indication that an enemy might attack.

[Rich and Corporations]

pretty sure 5 minutes isn't even sufficient warning for a platoon in a war-ready state.

That's why you increase readiness as the threat level increases. Only the attacker knows precisely when combat will begin, so you have to be ready for it if war is imminent.

Proper recon assets should give proper warning half an hour before hand, anything less is an ambush.

Even if you're attacking or defending.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCON

[Velkanika]

That's why you increase readiness as the threat level increases. Only the attacker knows precisely when combat will begin, so you have to be ready for it if war is imminent.

Proper recon assets should give proper warning half an hour before hand, anything less is an ambush.

Even if you're attacking or defending.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REDCON

This has nothing to do with recon, one minute you're weapons tight and technically at peace and the next you're at war. Think the Fulda Gap if WWIII happened during the Cold War; you can literally see the enemy for weeks at a time before hostilities commence but you don't know if they're going to come at you or not. They probably won't without a long period of preparation that will allow you to increase your readiness as well as i appears more likely that they will attack or that you will have to attack them. They could also suddenly attack with little preparation in order to throw you off. In this situation, which is similar to how it works at the Theater level (which I was talking about to begin with), higher levels of readiness will make a unit perform better if they go to war in 5 minutes. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about this concept or metaphor.