NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

[Zeinbrad]

Okay, won't try to overstay my welcome here.

May I ask what are the disadvantages of wearing a Gas Mask 24/7. The Wolfe (Besides High-Breeds) have to always wear gas mask like devices or they die, which is due to the toxicity of their homeworld. They are also wolf like in appearance, but that doesn't matter.

So yeah, besides lack of comfortableness what are the disadvantages?

You can't eat.

So, you die.

I'm still figuring that out, either they can take the gas mask for a limited amount of time, or they use a feeding tube.

[The Soodean Imperium]

Okay, won't try to overstay my welcome here.

May I ask what are the disadvantages of wearing a Gas Mask 24/7. The Wolfe (Besides High-Breeds) have to always wear gas mask like devices or they die, which is due to the toxicity of their homeworld. They are also wolf like in appearance, but that doesn't matter.

So yeah, besides lack of comfortableness what are the disadvantages?

Off the top of my head:
1) Trouble breathing. A gas mask restricts airflow, so if you have to run or perform other strenuous work, you'll tire out very quickly.
2) Visibility. Limiting your entire field of vision to two small circles, or even a visor, will make it harder to see, especially on the peripherals.
3) Neck strain. If you're dealing with a large, heavy mask, especially the full-face-helmet PMTers love, every turn of the head will wear you down.


Also, not eating, but that's already been covered.

[Crookfur]

Okay, won't try to overstay my welcome here.

May I ask what are the disadvantages of wearing a Gas Mask 24/7. The Wolfe (Besides High-Breeds) have to always wear gas mask like devices or they die, which is due to the toxicity of their homeworld. They are also wolf like in appearance, but that doesn't matter.

So yeah, besides lack of comfortableness what are the disadvantages?

unless the Wolfe have very recently buggered thier atmosphere they should be adapted to it. it would be more likely they have adapted to thier midly toxic atmosphere and thus find normal earth like air mixtures dangerous.

The issue with long term gas mask usage should be more or less self evident:

they are hot, sticky and generally uncomfortable (I image for a hairy race some sort of gas hood would work better than a skin sealing mask), they restrict your vision and ability to communicate and make everyday things like drinking very very difficult.

I would imagine for a scifi universe where an atmosphere migth be fairly close but not entire comaptible some sort of implant or breather device that is inserted directly into the orifice would be better for long term use.

[Purpelia]

You can't eat.

So, you die.

I'm still figuring that out, either they can take the gas mask for a limited amount of time, or they use a feeding tube.

Or they could just be intelligent and build sealed homes and underground cities where air is filtered so they don't need the masks. That way they would only need them when they go out to do something.

[The Akasha Colony]

In addition to the above, skin sores and skin irritation will likely also crop up with extended wear. Depending on the design of equipment, it may be harder to wear proper protective gear like a helmet, and harder to use the optics or even iron sights on conventional weapons.

[Zeinbrad]

Okay, won't try to overstay my welcome here.

May I ask what are the disadvantages of wearing a Gas Mask 24/7. The Wolfe (Besides High-Breeds) have to always wear gas mask like devices or they die, which is due to the toxicity of their homeworld. They are also wolf like in appearance, but that doesn't matter.

So yeah, besides lack of comfortableness what are the disadvantages?

unless the Wolfe have very recently buggered thier atmosphere they should be adapted to it. it would be more likely they have adapted to thier midly toxic atmosphere and thus find normal earth like air mixtures dangerous.

The issue with long term gas mask usage should be more or less self evident:

they are hot, sticky and generally uncomfortable (I image for a hairy race some sort of gas hood would work better than a skin sealing mask), they restrict your vision and ability to communicate and make everyday things like drinking very very difficult.

I would imagine for a scifi universe where an atmosphere migth be fairly close but not entire comaptible some sort of implant or breather device that is inserted directly into the orifice would be better for long term use.

Well I am currently for a gas mask for it to be based on, I'm thinking the PH helmet.

But thanks for the answers!

[The Soodean Imperium]

Actually, come to think of it, food might be beside the point in this scenario.

If the atmosphere is toxic enough that everyone must wear a gas mask to live, it's probably toxic enough that most plant or animal life has already died out. And any species which can survive likely contain a lot of toxins which they took in through the soil, the plants, or other animals (think of the high mercury content in fish from certain rivers). Which would either kill the wolf-people, or gradually acclimate them to their new environment.

Given that it's borderline FT, it might be easier to either have the wolf-people evolved to survive in their own atmosphere, or move them into underground cities as Purp suggested.

[Zeinbrad]

Actually, come to think of it, food might be beside the point in this scenario.

If the atmosphere is toxic enough that everyone must wear a gas mask to live, it's probably toxic enough that most plant or animal life has already died out. And any species which can survive likely contain a lot of toxins which they took in through the soil, the plants, or other animals (think of the high mercury content in fish from certain rivers). Which would either kill the wolf-people, or gradually acclimate them to their new environment.

Given that it's borderline FT, it might be easier to either have the wolf-people evolved to survive in their own atmosphere, or move them into underground cities as Purp suggested.

The gas mask is more for off world stuff, on different planets.

I have to talk with my helper if they wear gas masks on their homeworld or the gas masks are more for other planets so the settlers and soldiers don't die as soon as they take a breath.

The Wolfe are still a WIP.

[Krazeria]

Does anyone know how many ships the soviet navy had during the 70's-80's? I've spent quite a while looking but haven't found anything

its probably super easy to find and I'm just a dumbass

[Lubyak]

Wasn't that like the cornerstone of Soviet doctrine? The average grunt (and even junior officers) were not expected to exercise individual thought or initiative and proficiency was measured by their ability to accurately perform 'textbook' actions and maneuvers as prescribed by, again, the 'textbook'.

Compare Soviet doctrine to American doctrine. Consider it a game of chess.

The American player is an above average chess player, but with a set of pieces whose capabilities vary depending on the move required.
The Soviet player is a grand master, playing with a normal chess set. All pieces do exactly what they're supposed to do and nothing else.

The American player, while having more versatile pieces, can't use any of them as effectively and co-ordinated as the Soviet player. The Soviet player manages to position all his pieces in the best posture for the overall objective, and knows how to play off the strengths of all his pieces combined. Whereas the American player is reacting to events and not often pushing the offensive, he has some of the best and brightest chess pieces around, that do what is asked of them. If they need to be castles they are castles. If they need to be pawns they are pawns. Etc etc etc.

Also, if the Russian player expends his first set of chess pieces, he often can go and get another one, whereas it will take much longer for the Americans to do the same.

[The Soodean Imperium]

Does anyone know how many ships the soviet navy had during the 70's-80's? I've spent quite a while looking but haven't found anything

its probably super easy to find and I'm just a dumbass

According to the 1991 edition of The Naval Institute Guide to the Soviet Navy, Soviet naval strength in 1975 totaled approximately:
60 nuclear ballistic missile subs
40 nuclear guided missile subs
40 nuclear attack subs
23 conventional ballistic missile subs
25 conventional guided missile subs
143 conventional attack subs
1 carrier (Kiev-class)
2 helicopter carriers (Moskva-class)
19 guided missile cruisers
35 guided missile destroyers
36 gun-armed destroyers
10 ASW frigates (Krivak-class) and
106 frigates/light guard ships.

[Rich and Corporations]

Also, if the Russian player expends his first set of chess pieces, he often can go and get another one, whereas it will take much longer for the Americans to do the same.

but the chess players will often have trouble communicating with their pieces and must often give them ten future orders that they may not be able to change.
the American pieces are supposed to be trained in improvising in the interval of time while the Russian pieces are trained to follow orders

furthermore, the chess players cannot see the entire chess board

[Padnak]

Does anyone know how many ships the soviet navy had during the 70's-80's? I've spent quite a while looking but haven't found anything

its probably super easy to find and I'm just a dumbass

According to the 1991 edition of The Naval Institute Guide to the Soviet Navy, Soviet naval strength in 1975 totaled approximately:
60 nuclear ballistic missile subs
40 nuclear guided missile subs
40 nuclear attack subs
23 conventional ballistic missile subs
25 conventional guided missile subs
143 conventional attack subs
1 carrier (Kiev-class)
2 helicopter carriers (Moskva-class)
19 guided missile cruisers
35 guided missile destroyers
36 gun-armed destroyers
10 ASW frigates (Krivak-class) and
106 frigates/light guard ships.

damn

thats allot of subs

[Velkanika]

According to the 1991 edition of The Naval Institute Guide to the Soviet Navy, Soviet naval strength in 1975 totaled approximately:
60 nuclear ballistic missile subs
40 nuclear guided missile subs
40 nuclear attack subs
23 conventional ballistic missile subs
25 conventional guided missile subs
143 conventional attack subs
1 carrier (Kiev-class)
2 helicopter carriers (Moskva-class)
19 guided missile cruisers
35 guided missile destroyers
36 gun-armed destroyers
10 ASW frigates (Krivak-class) and
106 frigates/light guard ships.

damn

thats allot of subs

Now you know why NATO invested so much time and effort into developing excellent ASW systems.

[Zeinbrad]

So I've been thinking on how the Wolfe military distributes food rations, here's what I got so far. I'm stumped on which one too choose.

1)They just give them a couple of pills.

2) They use feeding tubes. Which are in the soldiers kit and plug into their gas mask like devices.

3)They just build (safe for Wolfe to live in, not regular humans though) field kitchens and let the soldiers get their nutrition from there.

Which one should I go with?

[The New Lowlands]

So I've been thinking on how the Wolfe military distributes food rations, here's what I got so far. I'm stumped on which one too choose.

1)They just give them a couple of pills.

2) They use feeding tubes. Which are in the soldiers kit and plug into their gas mask like devices.

3)They just build (safe for Wolfe to live in, not regular humans though) field kitchens and let the soldiers get their nutrition from there.

Which one should I go with?

pills are teh dum

2 works for emergencies

3 makes the most sense in general

[Purpelia]

So I've been thinking on how the Wolfe military distributes food rations, here's what I got so far. I'm stumped on which one too choose.

1)They just give them a couple of pills.

2) They use feeding tubes. Which are in the soldiers kit and plug into their gas mask like devices.

3)They just build (safe for Wolfe to live in, not regular humans though) field kitchens and let the soldiers get their nutrition from there.

Which one should I go with?

Given that these troops need respirators to survive long term exposure to the environment will be toxic anyway. Even with gas masks your skin will absorb the contaminants and it will eventually give them health problems. These people should be fully motorized within safe, pressurized vehicles when at all possible.

[Zeinbrad]

So I've been thinking on how the Wolfe military distributes food rations, here's what I got so far. I'm stumped on which one too choose.

1)They just give them a couple of pills.

2) They use feeding tubes. Which are in the soldiers kit and plug into their gas mask like devices.

3)They just build (safe for Wolfe to live in, not regular humans though) field kitchens and let the soldiers get their nutrition from there.

Which one should I go with?

Given that these troops need respirators to survive long term exposure to the environment will be toxic anyway. Even with gas masks your skin will absorb the contaminants and it will eventually give them health problems. These people should be fully motorized within safe, pressurized vehicles when at all possible.

*adds to notes*

The Wolfe are known to be very motorized.

So I assume they will have short troop rotations? Like a soldier is only on the field for a few weeks?

[Triplebaconation]

Wasn't that like the cornerstone of Soviet doctrine? The average grunt (and even junior officers) were not expected to exercise individual thought or initiative and proficiency was measured by their ability to accurately perform 'textbook' actions and maneuvers as prescribed by, again, the 'textbook'.

Bullshit.

[Rich and Corporations]

Wasn't that like the cornerstone of Soviet doctrine? The average grunt (and even junior officers) were not expected to exercise individual thought or initiative and proficiency was measured by their ability to accurately perform 'textbook' actions and maneuvers as prescribed by, again, the 'textbook'.

Bullshit.

http://reflectionsofarationalrepublican ... rticle.pdf

“When soldiers expect the commander
to make every decision or initiate every
action, they may become reluctant to
act. To counter this tendency, the com-
mander must plan and direct operations
in a manner that requires a minimum of
intervention. He operates on the princi-
ple that some loss of precision is better
than inactivity.”
4
In theory, this doctrine operates upon
the implicit assumption that the unit in
contact with the enemy is in the best
position to make a timely and aggres-
sive decision. It requires units at the
lowest level (platoons) to make and ex-
ecute these decisions. Ideally, a com-
mander should ensure that all his sub-
ordinates understand his intent and are
prepared to execute it in his absence.
Although a focus on local initiative
and independent decision-making is
part and parcel of American mecha-
nized doctrine, small units rarely exer-
cise this flexibility at the National
Training Center. The failure of Ameri-
can mechanized doc-
trine at the NTC can-
not be blamed on its
theory, as it is based
on an extremely suc-
cessful style of lead-
ership. Rather, its
failure lies in what
many would describe
as a “zero defect”
culture within many
units in the Ameri-
can military. Leaders
do not make inde-
pendent decisions beca
use they fear the
consequences of making a mistake.
More often than not, a BLUFOR pla-
toon will come to an abrupt halt once
they report contact and await further
instructions from higher units. Instead
of seeking cover and beginning to de-
velop the situation on their own, they
sit and wait for instructions from higher
echelons to engage the enemy. In the
inevitable delay that follows, their OP-
FOR counterparts engage them and
pound their stationary vehicles with
artillery. It seems that the tendency of
many commanders to insist upon “pre-
cision” rather than local initiative re-
sults in the frequent stagnation of some
BLUFOR units on the NTC battlefield.

[Velkanika]

Wasn't that like the cornerstone of Soviet doctrine? The average grunt (and even junior officers) were not expected to exercise individual thought or initiative and proficiency was measured by their ability to accurately perform 'textbook' actions and maneuvers as prescribed by, again, the 'textbook'.

Bullshit.

^
Soviet infantrymen and junior officers were expected to use whatever methods they wished in order to achieve their objectives, but were limited by specialized assets being attached further up the chain of command. NATO junior officers had faster access to special assets such as artillery, close air support, etc. due to there being fewer layers their requests would have to go through before reaching those assets. The delay on the Soviet side was exacerbated by less efficient communications equipment. On average US and Soviet Captains commanding the same type of formation were just as innovative and capable of pretty much exactly the same things tactically, but the US Captain would usually have a better strategic picture of what was happening across the battlefield. He could also directly talk to the Brigade's artillery without going through the Battalion CO if he needed fire support, whereas a Soviet Captain would need to go through his Battalion HQ first. On the flip side, the Soviet Colonel would be able to focus on the larger picture and allocate artillery to areas that need it the most based on what his subordinate commanders tell him, but this can add more time before shells start landing once the request for fire starts being passed up the chain of command.

And RnC's post is a great example of what happens when subordinate commanders become too risk-adverse.

Edit: That stereotype of no initiative being shown is blatantly false, and I think it started with Red Alert as part of the comedy of the game. Other than it taking a slightly higher level of the chain of command to make some decisions regarding specialized assets, there's no real differences between the two command styles in the field so long as subordinate commanders actually show some initiative.

[Rich and Corporations]

Actually in a war, it's being proven that there may be no communication.
The Darpa Spectrum Challenge had a pretty low data rate.

[Velkanika]

Actually in a war, it's being proven that there may be no communication.
The Darpa Spectrum Challenge had a pretty low data rate.

I have faith in someone innovating a communications system or protocol that will work in a heavy EW scenario.

[Triplebaconation]

quote="Velkanika";p="20297181"]

Wasn't that like the cornerstone of Soviet doctrine? The average grunt (and even junior officers) were not expected to exercise individual thought or initiative and proficiency was measured by their ability to accurately perform 'textbook' actions and maneuvers as prescribed by, again, the 'textbook'.

Bullshit.

^
Soviet infantrymen and junior officers were expected to use whatever methods they wished in order to achieve their objectives, but were limited by specialized assets being attached further up the chain of command. NATO junior officers had faster access to special assets such as artillery, close air support, etc. due to there being fewer layers their requests would have to go through before reaching those assets. The delay on the Soviet side was exacerbated by less efficient communications equipment. On average US and Soviet Captains commanding the same type of formation were just as innovative and capable of pretty much exactly the same things tactically, but the US Captain would usually have a better strategic picture of what was happening across the battlefield. He could also directly talk to the Brigade's artillery without going through the Battalion CO if he needed fire support, whereas a Soviet Captain would need to go through his Battalion HQ first. On the flip side, the Soviet Colonel would be able to focus on the larger picture and allocate artillery to areas that need it the most based on what his subordinate commanders tell him, but this can add more time before shells start landing once the request for fire starts being passed up the chain of command.

And RnC's post is a great example of what happens when subordinate commanders become too risk-adverse.

[/quote]

That's untrue as well, or at least a vast simplification. Soviet doctrine was about advancing as rapidly as possible. Initiative at the junior level wasn't discouraged, but it wasn't relied on either. The "textbook," in the form of battle drills, existed, but junior officers were expected to modify it according to the situation. Following it blindly would have been as bad as deviating from it in the case of failure. The most important thing was success. The junior officers who were successful, whether by their own initiative or blind luck, would be the ones reinforced. If necessary echelons would be skipped to support them.

The major advantage of the Soviet system was that it allowed speedy decision-making. There was always at least the framework of a plan.

The disadvantage was that the junior officer corps was quite bad - and even the good ones had to spend most of their time doing NCO work.

Edit: That stereotype of no initiative being shown is blatantly false, and I think it started with Red Alert as part of the comedy of the game. Other than it taking a slightly higher level of the chain of command to make some decisions regarding specialized assets, there's no real differences between the two command styles in the field so long as subordinate commanders actually show some initiative.

It's at least as old as the Cold War, and partially the result of applying Western thought processes to an alien culture. The two "command styles" were radically different.

[Zeinbrad]

Actually in a war, it's being proven that there may be no communication.
The Darpa Spectrum Challenge had a pretty low data rate.

Speaking of communications I have a thought.

When Wolfe commutations went down, they just had designated couriers carry letters and such by motorcycle. Horse or of bicycle if needed.

Good or bad idea?