NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

[Glorious ReBublic of Alevstan]

Ok. How many more passengers could a standard IFV/APC (let's take the M113 for example) fit if all weapons were removed and the seats were modified—say rows of 3 that fold into the floor when the soldiers get out? If the seat idea worked, it would add an additional 3 seats according to this picture, but would removing weapons affect anything?

[The Akasha Colony]

Possibly some kind of horrid rodent?

A rat, but somewhat (say, 20%) larger, very vicious and fast-breeding (think of the urban legends of rats, or of the role rats play in Orwell's 1984).

So, basically a Rodent of Unusual Size?

Different topic now:

I have this idea of making a type of ERA that works like the Trophy APS. Basically, it shotguns incoming projectiles to death before they can hit the tank. (Obviously, it would have a radar to track the projectiles)

How effective/useful would that be? How about if it was used in conjunction with normal ERA?

This is basically AMAP-ADS, but with shrapnel.

Ok. How many more passengers could a standard IFV/APC (let's take the M113 for example) fit if all weapons were removed and the seats were modified—say rows of 3 that fold into the floor when the soldiers get out? If the seat idea worked, it would add an additional 3 seats according to this picture, but would removing weapons affect anything?

That is the M113's default layout. It is designed for eleven passengers plus two crew, which is what it has in that image.

[Glorious ReBublic of Alevstan]

So, basically a Rodent of Unusual Size?

Different topic now:

I have this idea of making a type of ERA that works like the Trophy APS. Basically, it shotguns incoming projectiles to death before they can hit the tank. (Obviously, it would have a radar to track the projectiles)

How effective/useful would that be? How about if it was used in conjunction with normal ERA?

This is basically AMAP-ADS, but with shrapnel.

Ok. How many more passengers could a standard IFV/APC (let's take the M113 for example) fit if all weapons were removed and the seats were modified—say rows of 3 that fold into the floor when the soldiers get out? If the seat idea worked, it would add an additional 3 seats according to this picture, but would removing weapons affect anything?

That is the M113's default layout. It is designed for eleven passengers plus two crew, which is what it has in that image.

Yes, I can see that with my eyes. If the two jump seats were removed, and the seats were made to face the back, then my idea could possibly be implemented. But would removing the weapons change anything? I doubt it, but I was just wondering.

[Mitheldalond]

So, basically a Rodent of Unusual Size?

Different topic now:

I have this idea of making a type of ERA that works like the Trophy APS. Basically, it shotguns incoming projectiles to death before they can hit the tank. (Obviously, it would have a radar to track the projectiles)

How effective/useful would that be? How about if it was used in conjunction with normal ERA?

You mean an active protection system? It's basically a series of plates with lead shot or something comparable embedded into them over your normal ERA, that gets touched off whenever a rocket comes, I take it? I think there's already a system like that around.

inbefore purp with ymir nuclear shaped charge weapon

Exactly like that, yes. It would defeat tandem HEAT rounds by simply shooting them down, and allow you to survive two hits in the same spot or give you a second chance to stop a projectile that survived the shotgunning. And it should only be a modest weight increase too.

[The Akasha Colony]

Yes, I can see that with my eyes. If the two jump seats were removed, and the seats were made to face the back, then my idea could possibly be implemented. But would removing the weapons change anything? I doubt it, but I was just wondering.

No. Unlike in the Bradley or actual IFVs with turrets, the machine gun carried by the M113 doesn't take up space in the cabin, so there's no space to gain by eliminating a turret basket. The commander would still have to be there, or you could replace him with a regular soldier, but the capacity remains the same.

[New Vihenia]

So..for sake of commonality, i devised a scheme of only have two kinds of jet engines for my military aircraft. Subsonic and supersonic type.

The supersonic variant is a low bypass type with bypass ratio of 0.5 with total thrust of 41000-42000 Lbf in reheat with dry thrust of 25000-27000 Lbf in dry. The engine diameter is some 1-1.2 meter.

The subsonic variant is a high bypass turbofan with bypass ratio of 5 with thrust of some 50000-55000 Lbf.

I might consider however to adopt smaller subsonic type jet engine for lighter transport or trainer, the engine is also adoptable to power turboprop and even helicopters as turboshaft.

One thing i wonder is.. Could the commonality of the engine be increased further by use of common core. Well basically modern jet engine today consist of three basic parts, the fan, the gas generator (Core) and exhaust nozzle. In theory at least one can adopt the core part for a new variant of engine and combine it with new fan and nozzle.

One example i heard was the CFM-56 engine which have common core with B-1's F-101 engine. However i never heard fighter engine core adopted for such application (Granted we have D-30KP that power Il-76..Nonetheless it only has 15% commonality with D-30F which power MiG-31) For the smaller type..so far the best example i see is Russian TV-3 family which powers Russian helicopters and IL-38.

[Imperializt Russia]

That would be more likely to end an RP in acrimony, than anything else, Roski.

I forgot NS rpers don't know how to have a tactical nuclear war.

You're included in this.

Can people like, not shitpost?

Is this shitposting?

A series of one-line responses in a discussion thread may constitute shitposting.

[San-Silvacian]

Can people like, not shitpost?

Is this shitposting?

Yes and it is also considered to be any off-topic posting with the intentions of creating off topic discussion.

[New Vihenia]

I have this idea of making a type of ERA that works like the Trophy APS. Basically, it shotguns incoming projectiles to death before they can hit the tank. (Obviously, it would have a radar to track the projectiles)

How effective/useful would that be? How about if it was used in conjunction with normal ERA?

Likely to be ineffective against KE penetrator, as it's small and fast. The KEP will still hit your tank.

You'd better stick with HE like Iron Fist or AMAP-ADS so you can induce yaw if your intercept distance is only 15 m like beforementioned APS. If you wish to deflect the KEP, longer standoff range is mandatory.

[Inyourfaceistan]

I have this idea of making a type of ERA that works like the Trophy APS. Basically, it shotguns incoming projectiles to death before they can hit the tank. (Obviously, it would have a radar to track the projectiles)

How effective/useful would that be? How about if it was used in conjunction with normal ERA?

Likely to be ineffective against KE penetrator, as it's small and fast. The KEP will still hit your tank.

You'd better stick with HE like Iron Fist or AMAP-ADS so you can induce yaw if your intercept distance is only 15 m like beforementioned APS. If you wish to deflect the KEP, longer standoff range is mandatory.

Will AMAP-ADS stop KE penetrators? I know Iron Fist can, I don't know if AMAP-ADS could.

Also, is the term KE Penetrator synonymous with APFSDS, or is there some technical difference?

[Spirit of Hope]

Likely to be ineffective against KE penetrator, as it's small and fast. The KEP will still hit your tank.

You'd better stick with HE like Iron Fist or AMAP-ADS so you can induce yaw if your intercept distance is only 15 m like beforementioned APS. If you wish to deflect the KEP, longer standoff range is mandatory.

Will AMAP-ADS stop KE penetrators? I know Iron Fist can, I don't know if AMAP-ADS could.

Also, is the term KE Penetrator synonymous with APFSDS, or is there some technical difference?

A APFSDS is a KE penetrator, but not all KE penetrators are APFSDS.

I imagine the AMAP-ADS could potentially engage a APFSDS, but neither system is necessarily going to succeed in engaging APFSDS.

[New Vihenia]

Will AMAP-ADS stop KE penetrators? I know Iron Fist can, I don't know if AMAP-ADS could.

Also, is the term KE Penetrator synonymous with APFSDS, or is there some technical difference?

Well usually KE penetrator is synonymous with APFSDS. Though i believe this term can also applies to basically any penetrating projectile that use kinetic energy to penetrate armor.

Anyway as far as i heard however AMAP ADS is able to handle KEP BUT, as Iron fist it works by inducing yaw to the penetrator, greatly reduce its penetration. Nonetheless it will still hit the tank and there would be residual penetration (Cratering). So the capability exist but may only applicable for tanks or any vehicle with sufficient armor to deal with the cratering.

[Mitheldalond]

I have this idea of making a type of ERA that works like the Trophy APS. Basically, it shotguns incoming projectiles to death before they can hit the tank. (Obviously, it would have a radar to track the projectiles)

How effective/useful would that be? How about if it was used in conjunction with normal ERA?

Likely to be ineffective against KE penetrator, as it's small and fast. The KEP will still hit your tank.

You'd better stick with HE like Iron Fist or AMAP-ADS so you can induce yaw if your intercept distance is only 15 m like beforementioned APS. If you wish to deflect the KEP, longer standoff range is mandatory.

That was one of my concerns, yes. There is a version of Trophy in development that is supposed to be able to stop APFSDS, but I have no idea how effective it will be. That's part of the reason I planned to use it as an additional layer over the normal ERA, rather than as a replacement for normal ERA.

I'm thinking that my reworked armor scheme is going to rely on APS and ERA instead of lots of normal armor. The idea is to have multi-layer protection, like an air defense grid should. The first layer is a soft-kill APS followed by the hard-kill Quick Kill APS. Then there's the Trophy ERA, the normal ERA, and finally a minimal amount of normal composite armor.

The idea is that the tank doesn't need heavy armor to survive being hit, because it won't be hit in the first place. Also, it's easier to replace spent ERA tiles than damaged chunks of Chobham.

Likely to be ineffective against KE penetrator, as it's small and fast. The KEP will still hit your tank.

You'd better stick with HE like Iron Fist or AMAP-ADS so you can induce yaw if your intercept distance is only 15 m like beforementioned APS. If you wish to deflect the KEP, longer standoff range is mandatory.

Will AMAP-ADS stop KE penetrators? I know Iron Fist can, I don't know if AMAP-ADS could.

Also, is the term KE Penetrator synonymous with APFSDS, or is there some technical difference?

Not entirely sure about AMAP-ADS, but I think it can.

KE penetrator refers to any shell that relies on the force of impact alone for penetration. This includes things like AP, APCR, APDS, and APFSDS (probably bullets too). However, in the context of modern combat, the only KE penetrator that's really used anymore is APFSDS, so the terms are roughly synonymous.

[Allentyr]

So, how would you go about minimizing AT infantry threats to armor?
I came up with an MBT meant for urban combat, which meant it had a ton of ERA, railing and thick armor... But then I realized.
"This is still a lolhuge and lolslow target for AT infantry... hnnnng"

I mean, I attach infantry to an armored unit, but then again, long range AT.

[Padnak]

The best way to make sure your tanks don't get destroyed by infantry in urban combat with $50 RPGs they bought at the local arms bazaar is to blanket the urban area with a liberal amount of HOGs fallowed by a liberal amount of Sarin

Removes the problem

[Allentyr]

The best way to make sure your tanks don't get destroyed by infantry in urban combat with $50 RPGs they bought at the local arms bazaar is to blanket the urban area with a liberal amount of HOGs fallowed by a liberal amount of Sarin

Removes the problem

Are you doing acid again?

[Korva]

So, how would you go about minimizing AT infantry threats to armor?
I came up with an MBT meant for urban combat, which meant it had a ton of ERA, railing and thick armor... But then I realized.
"This is still a lolhuge and lolslow target for AT infantry... hnnnng"

I mean, I attach infantry to an armored unit, but then again, long range AT.

Like you said, attached infantry should clear the way in urban areas.

But don't get caught up in armoring your tank so heavily that it can never be destroyed, because that is impossible.

Just armor it against the most common threats and accept that war is hell and things get broken.

[Immoren]

So, how would you go about minimizing AT infantry threats to armor?
I came up with an MBT meant for urban combat, which meant it had a ton of ERA, railing and thick armor... But then I realized.
"This is still a lolhuge and lolslow target for AT infantry... hnnnng"

I mean, I attach infantry to an armored unit, but then again, long range AT.

Recce&forward observers&artillery&CAS
And infantry units working with tanks.

[Allentyr]

So, how would you go about minimizing AT infantry threats to armor?
I came up with an MBT meant for urban combat, which meant it had a ton of ERA, railing and thick armor... But then I realized.
"This is still a lolhuge and lolslow target for AT infantry... hnnnng"

I mean, I attach infantry to an armored unit, but then again, long range AT.

Like you said, attached infantry should clear the way in urban areas.

But don't get caught up in armoring your tank so heavily that it can never be destroyed, because that is impossible.

Just armor it against the most common threats and accept that war is hell and things get broken.

Okay then. Next question.

Short barrel or standard?
For an urban tank, I'd say a short barrel might help with maneuvering it in tight spaces, but it'd decrease it's accuracy (I assume..) for the non-urban battles.

[Padnak]

Are you doing acid again?

Nope

Thats how I would handle the situation if Padnak was presented with it. Outside of massive civilian casualties, its a sure fire way to greatly lesson the amount of people with cheep AT weapons trying to wreck your tanks.

Then while the sarins still floating around you move in with buttoned up tanks and dismounted infantry in NBC gear supported by aviation and artillery. Even better if you stagger your forces going into the city so that you have a second wave of troops conducting mop up operations and close by to support your first wave of forces should things go south

[Immoren]

Like you said, attached infantry should clear the way in urban areas.

But don't get caught up in armoring your tank so heavily that it can never be destroyed, because that is impossible.

Just armor it against the most common threats and accept that war is hell and things get broken.

Okay then. Next question.

Short barrel or standard?
For an urban tank, I'd say a short barrel might help with maneuvering it in tight spaces, but it'd decrease it's accuracy (I assume..) for the non-urban battles.

Just have the tank advancing via avenues where they can swing their barrels unimpeded.

[Korva]

Like you said, attached infantry should clear the way in urban areas.

But don't get caught up in armoring your tank so heavily that it can never be destroyed, because that is impossible.

Just armor it against the most common threats and accept that war is hell and things get broken.

Okay then. Next question.

Short barrel or standard?
For an urban tank, I'd say a short barrel might help with maneuvering it in tight spaces, but it'd decrease it's accuracy (I assume..) for the non-urban battles.

By standard do you mean something like the L/44? Or do you consider that short relative to the L/55?

If it is purely for urban/infantry support you could go with a 152mm like on the MBT-70 for maximum HE and canister.

[Padnak]

Okay then. Next question.

Short barrel or standard?
For an urban tank, I'd say a short barrel might help with maneuvering it in tight spaces, but it'd decrease it's accuracy (I assume..) for the non-urban battles.

If your tanks are operating in areas that are so confined they can't move their guns around, you may want to be reconsidering your strategy.

[Allentyr]

By standard do you mean something like the L/44? Or do you consider that short relative to the L/55?

If it is purely for urban/infantry support you could go with a 152mm like on the MBT-70 for maximum HE and canister.

I can't mount a gun that size on my tank... Think of the recoil yanking the turret clean off.
Not to mention the ammo...

If your tanks are operating in areas that are so confined they can't move their guns around, you may want to be reconsidering your strategy.

These tanks would be primarily for defense. My cities are sprawling. I plan to do the whole "Not one step back" thing.

[Inyourfaceistan]

But don't get caught up in armoring your tank so heavily that it can never be destroyed, because that is impossible.

Just armor it against the most common threats and accept that war is hell and things get broken.

I wonder who else could use this advice...

*Awkwardly looks at Mitheldalond's Tulkas-II*