NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

[Zeinbrad]

Walkers is their designation, not what the type of tank they are is called.

Anyways, this could of been worse...I'm making a Stormtrooper star wars RP, and I was tempted to post the average stormtrooper equipment.

That would of ended horribly...

We all said this before and will say it again. You can't create a whole universe on these threads. It's bloody hard to even make one believable nation.

I'm not creating a universe on this thread though..

Anyways. Don't respond to this, so I don't continue to post and annoy you further.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Let's make a "Create a Military Guideline"

[Registug]

Okay, so I am wanting to write an alternate history type dealio for a conflict between my nation Cooksland and Indonesia in the late 70s over the Invasion of East Timor. It's going to be an air and naval battle mostly, and those are the two things I know the least about.


This is a rough map of Cooksland, with everything north of the red line being the country. Militarily similar to Australia, with about half as much population clustered in the North Queensland area and in Darwin.

The war happens in 1977, after an Indonesian invasion of East Timor and Papua New Guinea, the latter being a newly independent territory that formerly belonged to Cooksland. I want the story to focus on "Kingfisher Flight", part of a squadron of F-14s, mainly flying over the Timor Sea and flying out from Cooksland Airforce Base in Darwin. I don't really want to get too in-depth as far as the grand operations go.

Several questions:
What was the situation in regards to exporting F-14s? I know Iran got some, but that was it.

In 1977, Indonesia didn't... have any fighters, apart from some hand-me-down CAC Sabres. I'm not quite sure whether they should still have those, and I think I need to make an alternate Indonesian Aircraft Procurement for the story. I know that Suharto was pro-west, should that translate into Indonesia getting some American fighters earlier?

I know jack shit about aircraft combat in general, and I'd like a bit of coaching in regards to that. For example, I don't know how aircraft ranges work. This is the main area I'm focusing on, and an F-14 would be reasonably expected to be able to take off from Darwin, fight above East Timor, and then turn around and make it back, right?

I'd also like to know about the Indonesian Air Force beyond what Wiki tells me.

[The New Lowlands]

There's two alternative routes by which Indonesia could acquire new aircraft by that time; the first being if Sukarno did not lose power and the country continued to enjoy good relations with the Communist Bloc, therefore getting aircraft from the Reds, or otherwise if Indonesia had held a pro-west stance for much longer, although the latter might preclude the US supporting an Indonesian takeover of Dutch New Guinea (which they did to try and gain Indonesian support in the Cold War IIRC) and the former would probably discourage the Indonesian invasion of East Timor (which was inspired in part to stop the Communists gaining power, although Indonesian desires to simply annex the territory might override that.)

[Questers]

The Shah of Iran got F-14s. Any country that wanted them could probably get hold of them.

Your best option is Sukarno staying in power (possibly with a successor by this time.) He can then get MiG-21s from the Eastern Bloc. This could happen by a reversal of what happened in real life. The 30 September movement manages to capture both Nasution and Suharto and both are convicted of plotting to overthrow Sukarno (whether or not they actually were planning to do that, whatever) and the Indonesian Army is greatly weakened politically, to the strong benefit of the Parti Komunis Indonesia. Sukarno stays in power.

The Indonesians were actually planning to take West Guinea from the Dutch if they didn't hand it over - they even had a plan to use Tu-16s to sink the Dutch carrier Karel Doorman, but it didn't go ahead. That could be useful for you (Tu-16 is still a useful weapon in the 70s.)

[Registug]

Sukarno staying in power would probably be my best bet.

F-14s vs MiGs over the Timor Sea, this is going to be fun.

[Anacasppia]

Is the institutionalization (and corresponding regulation) of amphetamine use in a military plausible? Personnel would be issued (tentatively) a 30 mg tablet (think Adderall XR) for consumption while on combat operations (or on exercises) every six hours or so. Amphetamine supplies would be tracked in a manner similiar to, say, ammunition to minimize abuse/overdosage/theft.

[Imperializt Russia]

Is the institutionalization (and corresponding regulation) of amphetamine use in a military plausible? Personnel would be issued (tentatively) a 30 mg tablet (think Adderall XR) for consumption while on combat operations (or on exercises) every six hours or so. Amphetamine supplies would be tracked in a manner similiar to, say, ammunition to minimize abuse/overdosage/theft.

Similar substances were widely issued to German soldiers in WWII.
You now need to put quite a lot of resources into guarding your amphetamine supplies now, and good luck legitimising whatever legislation you have on it at home if you're issuing it to troops. Regardless of safeguards, men will develop dependences and it will cause lapses of judgement and alertness.

Much simpler is just to issue caffeine-laden foodstuffs such as the equally German caffeine-infused chocolate.

[The Akasha Colony]

Is the institutionalization (and corresponding regulation) of amphetamine use in a military plausible? Personnel would be issued (tentatively) a 30 mg tablet (think Adderall XR) for consumption while on combat operations (or on exercises) every six hours or so. Amphetamine supplies would be tracked in a manner similiar to, say, ammunition to minimize abuse/overdosage/theft.

So you mean not actually tracked at all?

Military ammunition tracking is notoriously unreliable. It isn't likely to get better in high-intensity combat operations, either. Expenditure reports can point out how much was used after the fact, but the US can't even track how much of its ammunition may have reached expiration dates, and is thus disposing of large quantities of it.

Amphetamines were historically used for such purposes during WWII, but as Samoz notes, it will lead to dependency. Controlling the substance will be rather difficult, and it isn't hard to suspect there will be large amounts of embezzling by the quartermasters, either to sell under the table or for personal use.

[Questers]

Is the institutionalization (and corresponding regulation) of amphetamine use in a military plausible? Personnel would be issued (tentatively) a 30 mg tablet (think Adderall XR) for consumption while on combat operations (or on exercises) every six hours or so. Amphetamine supplies would be tracked in a manner similiar to, say, ammunition to minimize abuse/overdosage/theft.

Similar substances were widely issued to German soldiers in WWII.
You now need to put quite a lot of resources into guarding your amphetamine supplies now, and good luck legitimising whatever legislation you have on it at home if you're issuing it to troops. Regardless of safeguards, men will develop dependences and it will cause lapses of judgement and alertness.

Much simpler is just to issue caffeine-laden foodstuffs such as the equally German caffeine-infused chocolate.

I hope you are not referring to panzerschokolade which was methamphetamine infused chocolate.

ALL sides in the war used amphetamines of some form. IMO its legitimate, but only in total war scenario.

I am not convinced it leads to dependency. It's not like they're like oh yeah dude, I really wanna go smoke some crack now. The psychological effect of these pills will be mixed with the adrenaline of combat and all other war psychologies.

And it isn't like a huge quantity of veterans don't abuse alcohol anyway.

[Gallia-]

You make total war sound like the exception rather than the norm.

Once you go Total War, you never go back.

[The Kievan People]

Is the institutionalization (and corresponding regulation) of amphetamine use in a military plausible? Personnel would be issued (tentatively) a 30 mg tablet (think Adderall XR) for consumption while on combat operations (or on exercises) every six hours or so. Amphetamine supplies would be tracked in a manner similiar to, say, ammunition to minimize abuse/overdosage/theft.

Modafinil and lots of rotation is a much better option.

[Questers]

Not even once.

[Gallia-]

Not even once.

Name an industry that doesn't have at least one of its hands in defence today. ):

Even individual companies.

Maybe Apple doesn't supply defence products, but Oracle, Microsoft, Intel, Honeywell, etc. are all part of the MIC. Sure, they're not literally printing guns or bombs like in WW2, but they're taking defence contracts for military software, computers, etc. that are required for armies to operate.

[Imperializt Russia]

Similar substances were widely issued to German soldiers in WWII.
You now need to put quite a lot of resources into guarding your amphetamine supplies now, and good luck legitimising whatever legislation you have on it at home if you're issuing it to troops. Regardless of safeguards, men will develop dependences and it will cause lapses of judgement and alertness.

Much simpler is just to issue caffeine-laden foodstuffs such as the equally German caffeine-infused chocolate.

I hope you are not referring to panzerschokolade which was methamphetamine infused chocolate.

ALL sides in the war used amphetamines of some form. IMO its legitimate, but only in total war scenario.

I am not convinced it leads to dependency. It's not like they're like oh yeah dude, I really wanna go smoke some crack now. The psychological effect of these pills will be mixed with the adrenaline of combat and all other war psychologies.

And it isn't like a huge quantity of veterans don't abuse alcohol anyway.

Both were used, weren't they?

[Questers]

Not even once.

Name an industry that doesn't have at least one of its hands in defence today. ):

Even individual companies.

Maybe Apple doesn't supply defence products, but Oracle, Microsoft, Intel, Honeywell, etc. are all part of the MIC. Sure, they're not literally printing guns or bombs like in WW2, but they're taking defence contracts for military software, computers, etc. that are required for armies to operate.

Yeah if you win a total war you might become the most powerful country on earth, definitely don't try.

[Gallia-]

Name an industry that doesn't have at least one of its hands in defence today. ):

Even individual companies.

Maybe Apple doesn't supply defence products, but Oracle, Microsoft, Intel, Honeywell, etc. are all part of the MIC. Sure, they're not literally printing guns or bombs like in WW2, but they're taking defence contracts for military software, computers, etc. that are required for armies to operate.

Yeah if you win a total war you might become the most powerful country on earth, definitely don't try.

Yeah who won WW2 again?

[Tule]

Is the institutionalization (and corresponding regulation) of amphetamine use in a military plausible? Personnel would be issued (tentatively) a 30 mg tablet (think Adderall XR) for consumption while on combat operations (or on exercises) every six hours or so. Amphetamine supplies would be tracked in a manner similiar to, say, ammunition to minimize abuse/overdosage/theft.

I have never used Adderall, but I do take 54 mg of extended release Methylphenidate (Concerta) daily as prescribed by my Psychiatrist.

It's not even close to being a superdrug like the one in Limitless, at least not for me and not at the dose I'm taking.
For me it's a lot like a cup of coffee in terms of the effects it has on me but slightly more potent. It keeps you awake, reduces appetite, makes your heart beat a little harder and your attention span is longer. That's it. It doesn't make you high or intoxicated in any way.

Your troops still need rest even with stimulant use. Stimulants not a sleep replacement but a "wakefulness loan" you must pay back later.
The longer you use stimulants to ward off hunger and drowsiness the more uncomfortable you will feel and the harder your crash will be.
You keep your troops on stimulants for a couple of days straight and they will sleep for a long time when the drugs wear off. Keep them on stimulants for a week or longer and they will literally go insane.

That being said, methylphenidate itself is a "safer" stimulant than coke or (meth)amphetamine. It's harder to overdose on it, tolerance builds up slower (or not at all at low doses), and it does not make you feel euphoric.

Issuing the drug conservatively to pilots, drivers and Spec Ops depending on mission details is OK. Issuing them to your troops as standard to make them "super soldiers" is a very bad idea.

[The Kievan People]

Name an industry that doesn't have at least one of its hands in defence today. ):

Even individual companies.

Maybe Apple doesn't supply defence products, but Oracle, Microsoft, Intel, Honeywell, etc. are all part of the MIC. Sure, they're not literally printing guns or bombs like in WW2, but they're taking defence contracts for military software, computers, etc. that are required for armies to operate.

Compared to 40 or 50 years ago, defense plays a much smaller role in the U.S. economy and the world economy.

http://www.sipri.org/research/armaments ... ion/Top100

Two things are evident:
1. The largest companies are the ones with significant civilian business.
2. The larger the share of revenue from defense, the smaller the company tends to be.

[Questers]

i may or may not have consumed amphetamines on one or more occasions.

if i did, what would have happened is that i would have started at 1pm, began playing hearts of iron 2, blinked and it was 8pm, and then I would refuse all food because i wasnt hungry, even to the moment I went to sleep 42 hours later. If I had taken them, I mean. Which I may or may not have done.

[Gallia-]

Name an industry that doesn't have at least one of its hands in defence today. ):

Even individual companies.

Maybe Apple doesn't supply defence products, but Oracle, Microsoft, Intel, Honeywell, etc. are all part of the MIC. Sure, they're not literally printing guns or bombs like in WW2, but they're taking defence contracts for military software, computers, etc. that are required for armies to operate.

Compared to 40 or 50 years ago, defense plays a much smaller role in the U.S. economy and the world economy.

http://www.sipri.org/research/armaments ... ion/Top100

Two things are evident:
1. The largest companies are the ones with significant civilian business.
2. The larger the share of revenue from defense, the smaller the company tends to be.

wot ever

point is everyone has defence contracts now ):

i may or may not have consumed amphetamines on one or more occasions.

if i did, what would have happened is that i would have started at 1pm, began playing hearts of iron 2, blinked and it was 8pm, and then I would refuse all food because i wasnt hungry, even to the moment I went to sleep 42 hours later. If I had taken them, I mean. Which I may or may not have done.

did you play as u-s-gay and print montanas?

[The Akasha Colony]

Name an industry that doesn't have at least one of its hands in defence today. ):

Even individual companies.

Maybe Apple doesn't supply defence products, but Oracle, Microsoft, Intel, Honeywell, etc. are all part of the MIC. Sure, they're not literally printing guns or bombs like in WW2, but they're taking defence contracts for military software, computers, etc. that are required for armies to operate.

Compared to 40 or 50 years ago, defense plays a much smaller role in the U.S. economy and the world economy.

http://www.sipri.org/research/armaments ... ion/Top100

Two things are evident:
1. The largest companies are the ones with significant civilian business.
2. The larger the share of revenue from defense, the smaller the company tends to be.

Is the $1.5 billion different in total revenue and arms revenue BAE receives proceeds from gift shop sales?

[Voltrovia]

Phosgene, VX, sarin, tabun, soman, cyclosarin, chlorine gas (and an important component of my chemical stockpiles, phosphine, which is very difficult to store and deploy) are all good places to start. Each has specific advantages in different environments and you can find the exact abilities and uses of each from the links below.

Wikipedia and Princeton's chemistry e-library are both good places for research. The latter is especially helpful and most basic substances you want to find out about simply have to be entered before the .htm (i.e. change phospine to anything you're interested in): http://web.princeton.edu/sites/ehs/labsafetymanual/cheminfo/phosphine.htm

Phosgene and chlorine, being actual gases, may not be wise to use. Chemical agents are already terrifyingly subject to weather. Same for tabun, soman and cyclosarin, IIRC.
Sarin and VX, deployed as aerosolised liquids, are probably better agents. The combination would also offer a medium-effect degrading agent for battlefield use and a high-effect persistent agent for delaying use.

Forgot to quote. Oops.

That was actually s'posed to be a hastily typed out answer to someone's question about chemical weapons, which is why it probably seemed oddly worded. I do use most of those in my own military though, thanks for the advice Imperializt.

[Tule]

i may or may not have consumed amphetamines on one or more occasions.

if i did, what would have happened is that i would have started at 1pm, began playing hearts of iron 2, blinked and it was 8pm, and then I would refuse all food because i wasnt hungry, even to the moment I went to sleep 42 hours later. If I had taken them, I mean. Which I may or may not have done.

I imagine you then slept for up to 20 hours after your binge, assuming you did consume amphetamines.

[The Kievan People]

And they didn't before...?

The percentage of industry involved in defense-related activities in the U.S. has been going steadily down since WWII, when everyone really was involved.