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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread #6

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Who should OP the next thread?

The Kievan People
44
33%
Spirit of Hope
9
7%
Padnak
39
30%
Yukonastan
4
3%
Allanea
16
12%
Soodean Imperium
6
5%
Gallia-
14
11%
 
Total votes : 132

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Zeinbrad
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Posts: 29535
Founded: Jun 04, 2012
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Postby Zeinbrad » Mon May 19, 2014 8:30 pm

Post-Apocalyptic Army time.

New Lazuran Army equipment.

Standard infantry soldier
x1 Gustloff Volkssturmgewehr
x4 magazines.
Two grenades (That often explode in the users hand).
x1 Volkspistol.
x2 magazines.

Officer.
x1 Volkspistol.
x3 magazines.
x1 flare pistol.

Vehicle crewman.
(Commander)
x1 MP 3008.
x2 magazines.
(Regular)
x1 Volkspistol.
x2 magazines.

Vehicles.
-Panzer I.
-Panzer II.
- Pre-War Panzer III equivalent.
-Pre-War Halftrack.

Aircraft.
Avia S-199

Other Equipment.
Panzerfaust.
14.7mm Dual-Purpose Machine gun (Anti-personnel Anti-Aircraft)
Bugle.
Whistle.
MG-45.

Thoughts?
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Carpathus
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Postby Carpathus » Mon May 19, 2014 8:38 pm

Questers wrote:The divisions are too big and don't have enough supporting arms.

also

>motorised
muh sparky


Too big as far as troop numbers or numbers of division?

muh sparky? Je ne comprends pas...
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Mon May 19, 2014 8:39 pm

Carpathus wrote:
Questers wrote:The divisions are too big and don't have enough supporting arms.

also

>motorised
muh sparky


Too big as far as troop numbers or numbers of division?

muh sparky? Je ne comprends pas...
the size of the divisions. too many combat subunits.
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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Mon May 19, 2014 8:46 pm

Carpathus wrote:
Questers wrote:The divisions are too big and don't have enough supporting arms.

also

>motorised
muh sparky


Too big as far as troop numbers or numbers of division?

muh sparky? Je ne comprends pas...


Generally, they should have 2-4 primary combat units, but instead they have between five and eight. The US Army had a hard time with just five when they tested the pentomic division structure, but that had more supporting arms (which are needed here as well).
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Austrasien
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Postby Austrasien » Mon May 19, 2014 9:05 pm

A great deal of combat experience suggests a formation should not have more than five maneuvering subunits, with 3-4 being the ideal number.
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Hurtful Thoughts
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Postby Hurtful Thoughts » Mon May 19, 2014 9:16 pm

Zeinbrad wrote:Post-Apocalyptic Army time.

New Lazuran Army equipment.

Standard infantry soldier
x1 Gustloff Volkssturmgewehr
x4 magazines.
Two grenades (That often explode in the users hand).
x1 Volkspistol.
x2 magazines.

Officer.
x1 Volkspistol.
x3 magazines.
x1 flare pistol.

Vehicle crewman.
(Commander)
x1 MP 3008.
x2 magazines.
(Regular)
x1 Volkspistol.
x2 magazines.

Vehicles.
-Panzer I.
-Panzer II.
- Pre-War Panzer III equivalent.
-Pre-War Halftrack.

Thoughts?

U rang?

IRL, the germans simplified their grenades with the model 43 (dispensing with the stick) and the lighter M39 'egg' grenade.
-Volkpistol probably means a Walther-copy, or a markov...

Interesting use for a german flare-pistol. They also functioned as sawn-off shotguns. As such, having both a handgun, and a hand-flare-shotgun at the same time would be redundant.

Also, since range will be an issue, due to not issuing scopes to everyone, pistol-range engagements are likely simply to ensure headshots, so submachine-guns would seem the norm, even if it meant re-chambering rifles with a Pederson-device in 7.62mm Mauser.
-The MP-40, although handier in close-quarters, does not jive well with the german bayonet-practice of maintaining a standoff-distance.

As for artillery, I'd suggest checking the history of the 15cm SiG L11.
-In addition, look into using narrow-gauge rail.
Last edited by Hurtful Thoughts on Mon May 19, 2014 9:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The Republic of Lanos
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Postby The Republic of Lanos » Mon May 19, 2014 9:17 pm

Zeinbrad wrote:Thoughts?

[desire to desert intensifies]

Seriously, that's a bad loadout enough to make me surrender to the Russians.

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Anacasppia
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Postby Anacasppia » Mon May 19, 2014 9:25 pm

The Volkspistole was an actual pistol design in its own right - a last ditch attempt at an easy to manufacture pistol in the spirit of the other 'Volks' weapons.

On the topic of hand grenades, does a stick actually confer any significant advantage in ease of being thrown or throwing distance?
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The Akasha Colony
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Akasha Colony » Mon May 19, 2014 9:27 pm

Anacasppia wrote:On the topic of hand grenades, does a stick actually confer any significant advantage in ease of being thrown or throwing distance?


Yes. But nowadays you can get the same or greater distance via a grenade launcher, and the stick takes up additional space.
A colony of the New Free Planets Alliance.
The primary MT nation of this account is the Republic of Carthage.
New Free Planets Alliance (FT)
New Terran Republic (FT)
Republic of Carthage (MT)
World Economic Union (MT)
Kaiserreich Europa Zentral (PT/MT)
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Zeinbrad
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Posts: 29535
Founded: Jun 04, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Zeinbrad » Mon May 19, 2014 9:28 pm

Hurtful Thoughts wrote:
Zeinbrad wrote:Post-Apocalyptic Army time.

New Lazuran Army equipment.

Standard infantry soldier
x1 Gustloff Volkssturmgewehr
x4 magazines.
Two grenades (That often explode in the users hand).
x1 Volkspistol.
x2 magazines.

Officer.
x1 Volkspistol.
x3 magazines.
x1 flare pistol.

Vehicle crewman.
(Commander)
x1 MP 3008.
x2 magazines.
(Regular)
x1 Volkspistol.
x2 magazines.

Vehicles.
-Panzer I.
-Panzer II.
- Pre-War Panzer III equivalent.
-Pre-War Halftrack.

Thoughts?

U rang?

IRL, the germans simplified their grenades with the model 43 (dispensing with the stick) and the lighter M39 'egg' grenade.
-Volkpistol probably means a Walther-copy, or a markov...

Interesting use for a german flare-pistol. They also functioned as sawn-off shotguns. As such, having both a handgun, and a hand-flare-shotgun at the same time would be redundant.

Also, since range will be an issue, due to not issuing scopes to everyone, pistol-range engagements are likely simply to ensure headshots, so submachine-guns would seem the norm, even if it meant re-chambering rifles with a Pederson-device in 7.62mm Mauser.
-The MP-40, although handier in close-quarters, does not jive well with the german bayonet-practice of maintaining a standoff-distance.

As for artillery, I'd suggest checking the history of the 15cm SiG L11.
-In addition, look into using narrow-gauge rail.

Okay.

Lanos- If you where expecting high-quality gear in the post-apocalypse, I'm sorry to disappoint.

Though, the New Lazuran Army is not the most well-equipped and trained fighting force in this world.
“There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind.
The second way is to be kind.
The third way is to be kind.”
― Fred Rogers
Currently looking for an artist for a Star Wars fan comic I want to make.

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Carpathus
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Posts: 280
Founded: Oct 28, 2011
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Postby Carpathus » Mon May 19, 2014 10:21 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Carpathus wrote:
Too big as far as troop numbers or numbers of division?

muh sparky? Je ne comprends pas...


Generally, they should have 2-4 primary combat units, but instead they have between five and eight. The US Army had a hard time with just five when they tested the pentomic division structure, but that had more supporting arms (which are needed here as well).


Ok. Lets say (on the motorised division for example), I axe the cavalry brigade, 3 infantry brigades, and merge artillery and air defense into one, making:

Motorised Infantry Division
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Artillery and Air Defense Brigade
---- Support & Logistics Brigade
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Mon May 19, 2014 10:56 pm

Carpathus wrote:
The Akasha Colony wrote:
Generally, they should have 2-4 primary combat units, but instead they have between five and eight. The US Army had a hard time with just five when they tested the pentomic division structure, but that had more supporting arms (which are needed here as well).


Ok. Lets say (on the motorised division for example), I axe the cavalry brigade, 3 infantry brigades, and merge artillery and air defense into one, making:

Motorised Infantry Division
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Artillery and Air Defense Brigade
---- Support & Logistics Brigade
Yes.

Now: your division is lacking a LOT of assets in this structure, unless those assets are self-contained within the brigades (if they are, those brigades would be able to operate independently, like a US BCT.) Where are the pioneers, for example? Road security troops? Divisional intelligence and communications?

Idk about merging artillery and air defence.

The Infantry Brigades could do with a breakdown.
Last edited by Questers on Mon May 19, 2014 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Carpathus
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Postby Carpathus » Mon May 19, 2014 11:35 pm

Questers wrote:Yes.

Now: your division is lacking a LOT of assets in this structure, unless those assets are self-contained within the brigades (if they are, those brigades would be able to operate independently, like a US BCT.) Where are the pioneers, for example? Road security troops? Divisional intelligence and communications?

Idk about merging artillery and air defence.

The Infantry Brigades could do with a breakdown.


I just found this chart I'm going to base the infantry units off of. This would give the brigade more support units specific to the brigade, plus the units under the S&L Brigade that serve the division. The brigade combat teams put artillery at the battalion level, but this chart (I believe about WWII) places them at the brigade level. Which would be best in this case?

Motorised Infantry Division
---- Divisional Headquarters Company
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Field Artillery Brigade
---- Support & Logistics Brigade <-----This would contain any other special units the division might need
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Tue May 20, 2014 12:28 am

Carpathus wrote:
Questers wrote:Yes.

Now: your division is lacking a LOT of assets in this structure, unless those assets are self-contained within the brigades (if they are, those brigades would be able to operate independently, like a US BCT.) Where are the pioneers, for example? Road security troops? Divisional intelligence and communications?

Idk about merging artillery and air defence.

The Infantry Brigades could do with a breakdown.


I just found this chart I'm going to base the infantry units off of. This would give the brigade more support units specific to the brigade, plus the units under the S&L Brigade that serve the division. The brigade combat teams put artillery at the battalion level, but this chart (I believe about WWII) places them at the brigade level. Which would be best in this case?

Motorised Infantry Division
---- Divisional Headquarters Company
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Field Artillery Brigade
---- Support & Logistics Brigade <-----This would contain any other special units the division might need
Yea, a BCT can operate on its own. For 96 hours I think. So if all the assets are self contained, thats ok.

The reason is that a BCT has to be contained within itself, so they allocated it artillery (and give arty units at division for the div commander too.) In WW2 a division wouldn't separate into independent units in the way a BCT can, so the structure is more rigid; it gives more control to the DIVCOM.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue May 20, 2014 12:40 am

BCT is almost entirely self-contained yet only operate for 96 hours? Huh.
What limitation causes this?
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Carpathus
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Postby Carpathus » Tue May 20, 2014 1:08 am

Questers wrote:Yea, a BCT can operate on its own. For 96 hours I think. So if all the assets are self contained, thats ok.

The reason is that a BCT has to be contained within itself, so they allocated it artillery (and give arty units at division for the div commander too.) In WW2 a division wouldn't separate into independent units in the way a BCT can, so the structure is more rigid; it gives more control to the DIVCOM.


This is the final division setup I'm gonna run with.
Motorised Infantry Division
---- Divisional Headquarters Company
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Field Artillery Regiment
---- Support & Logistics Brigade

and infantry brigade breakdown
Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Brigade Headquarters Company
---- Motor. Infantry Battalion
---- Motor. Infantry Battalion
---- Motor. Infantry Battalion
---- Motor. Cavalry squadron
---- Field Artillery Battalion
---- Engineer Battalion
---- Support Battalion

I'll then use this base formula to change the other divisions around.
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Tue May 20, 2014 1:57 am

it works.
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Carpathus
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Postby Carpathus » Tue May 20, 2014 2:05 am

Questers wrote:it works.

Thanks for the help... I'll be back.
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Kouralia
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Postby Kouralia » Tue May 20, 2014 2:07 am

Carpathus wrote:
Questers wrote:Yea, a BCT can operate on its own. For 96 hours I think. So if all the assets are self contained, thats ok.

The reason is that a BCT has to be contained within itself, so they allocated it artillery (and give arty units at division for the div commander too.) In WW2 a division wouldn't separate into independent units in the way a BCT can, so the structure is more rigid; it gives more control to the DIVCOM.


This is the final division setup I'm gonna run with.
Motorised Infantry Division
---- Divisional Headquarters Company
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Field Artillery Regiment
---- Support & Logistics Brigade

and infantry brigade breakdown
Motorised Infantry Brigade
---- Brigade Headquarters Company
---- Motor. Infantry Battalion
---- Motor. Infantry Battalion
---- Motor. Infantry Battalion
---- Motor. Cavalry squadron
---- Field Artillery Battalion
---- Engineer Battalion
---- Support Battalion

I'll then use this base formula to change the other divisions around.

No Division level engineers or Air Corps support?
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Carpathus
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Postby Carpathus » Tue May 20, 2014 2:28 am

Kouralia wrote:No Division level engineers or Air Corps support?

Each brigade has an engineering battalion and the support and logistics brigade has an engineer battalion for division wide support.
Wasn't sure of a good way to incorporate the air support into the Divisions without taking up too much space, so I'm playing around with a special attack helicopter brigade that's independent from the divisions. Making it more flexible.
Plus my brother told me the air force will overlap the army into the realm of attack helicopters and some close air support.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue May 20, 2014 2:33 am

Helicopters, including attack helicopters, would ideally be best integrated directly into Army units. American and Russian divisions both featured small attack helicopter units, of approximately one squadron IIRC.
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Vedria
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Postby Vedria » Tue May 20, 2014 2:45 am

Should I delegate logistics/support units at a divisional or brigade level?
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Carpathus
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Postby Carpathus » Tue May 20, 2014 2:49 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:Helicopters, including attack helicopters, would ideally be best integrated directly into Army units. American and Russian divisions both featured small attack helicopter units, of approximately one squadron IIRC.

Do you mean an air force sized squadron or a cavalry sized squadron?
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Tue May 20, 2014 3:01 am

Carpathus wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Helicopters, including attack helicopters, would ideally be best integrated directly into Army units. American and Russian divisions both featured small attack helicopter units, of approximately one squadron IIRC.

Do you mean an air force sized squadron or a cavalry sized squadron?

The Russian Motor Rifle Division circa 1980 featured a Helicopter Squadron of up to 18 aircraft, six attack helicopters, six scout helicopters and four medium helicopters (Hind, Hoplite and Hip, respectively). Two additional Hip aircraft to the sixteen listed are airborne command posts. It was estimated at 200 personnel.

FM-100-2-3 lists this as an "estimate" and also notes that some units carry additional Hind helicopters.
Last edited by Imperializt Russia on Tue May 20, 2014 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kouralia
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Postby Kouralia » Tue May 20, 2014 3:05 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Carpathus wrote:Do you mean an air force sized squadron or a cavalry sized squadron?

The Russian Motor Rifle Division circa 1980 featured a Helicopter Squadron of up to 18 aircraft, six attack helicopters, six scout helicopters and four medium helicopters (Hind, Hoplite and Hip, respectively). Two additional Hip aircraft to the sixteen listed are airborne command posts. It was estimated at 200 personnel.

FM-100-2-3 lists this as an "estimate" and also notes that some units carry additional Hind helicopters.

Mine has four squadrons.

<.<
>.>
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