Worldbuilding Realism Consultation Thread Mk. 4

[Ainin]

Come to think about it, Internal Control and Counterintelligence is doubly cool because an acronym could be "ICCI" which has a nice symmetry to it.

Perhaps have a stylized logo like "icↄi" but uppercase and with moar cool which they can also like wear and stuff.

It also sounds like "I see" which is an added bonus.

[The Kievan People]

Tule is an alternate universe Scandinavia with a semi-fascist, integralist government.
It will however retain a strong hunting tradition.

Would these gun laws be overly liberal for such an Authoritarian Single-Party state? I have deliberately written them with the preservation of government firepower superiority in mind.

Apparently, many dictatorships and oligarchies throughout history have allowed civilian gun ownership, including Nazi Germany and Ba'athist Iraq, not to mention today's Saudi Arabia

The Tulean State regulates firearms by 3 categories:

Category A:

Category A firearms are subject to registration and can be obtained by any autonomous person with a hunting certificate and a clean criminal record.
There is a maximum limit of 6 Category A firearms allowed per household however and they must be stored in a fashion that makes them inaccessible to prohibited persons.

All shotguns, apart from those that:

1) Hold more than 3 shells, including any shells that fit in the chamber(s).
2) Can be easily modified to hold more than 3 shells.
3) Have a fully-automatic firing capability or can be easily modified to have that capability.
4) Have a barrel shorter than 450 mm.

All rifles, apart from those that:

1) Are semi-automatic or pump-activated AND hold more than 3 centerfire rounds, including any rounds that fit in the chamber(s).
2) Are manually operated and hold more than 10 centerfire rounds.
3) Have a fully-automatic firing capability or can be easily modified to have that capability.
4) Have a barrel shorter than 450 mm.
5) Are chambered in any centerfire cartridge used by the Government.

Category B:

Category B firearms are subject to registration and can only be owned by government-approved gun clubs, though autonomous individuals with clean criminal records may rent firearms and even bring them abroad for competitions, provided that they have been registered members of said shooting clubs for 2 years and have participated in 6 competitions locally.

All firearms apart from those that:

1) Have a fully-automatic firing capability or can be easily modified to have that capability.
2) Have a barrel shorter than 100 mm.
3) Are chambered in any centerfire cartridge used by the government.
4) Are chambered in any centerfire cartridge with a cartridge case shorter than 19 mm.

Category C:

Any firearm not permitted by the first two categories. These are prohibited for civilians to own unless said firearms have been permanently deactivated.


The household gun ownership rate in the State of Tule is 31 percent, as hunting is popular.

It's fine. Guns are not a threat to the state.

Organizations with guns can be. But the guns are only a symptom of the real problem, which is a hostile non-state organization.

[Gallia-]

1. Evacuation plans for major factory staff (and preferably equipment), to commence at certain levels of nuclear alert.

2. Mandatory safe-rooms/bomb shelters in every civilian apartment building and public building.

3. Public bomb shelters (can be used for various civilian uses when not being used for the main purpose, in Israel they are used a synagogues, youth centers, etc.)

4. Large sheltered storage facilities for civilian supplies (not only food, but automobiles, medicine, disassembled bridges, farm and factory equipment, firefighting equipment).

5. Emergency survival/NBC safety education in all schools. Encourage everyone to own emergency supplies.

6. Free gas masks and other supplies for civilians (a policy in Israel, my gas mask is within a yard of where I am sitting as I type this).

Build the entire country underground, in a granite mesa, from the start.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Come to think about it, Internal Control and Counterintelligence is doubly cool because an acronym could be "ICCI" which has a nice symmetry to it.

Perhaps have a stylized logo like "icↄi" but uppercase and with moar cool which they can also like wear and stuff.

It also sounds like "I see" which is an added bonus.

lol yep

How does this sound?

Department of Interior

Emergency Services Sub-Department

Federal Police
Border and Customs Police
State Police
County Police

Local Police

Each tier would have its own intelligence, riot, corrections etc. branches, assuming the agency is large enough for these specialized functions to be justified. For example, the role of the FBI would be held by the Federal Police, state prisons would be under the Department of Corrections of state police agencies, etc. Now, the only problem that arises is that there would be too much power in the hands of a few so I was wondering about a more democratic way of decision making and administration.

A council-based system could be used e.g. federal police being controlled by a council made up of the state police chiefs etc.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Tule is an alternate universe Scandinavia with a semi-fascist, integralist government.
It will however retain a strong hunting tradition.

Would these gun laws be overly liberal for such an Authoritarian Single-Party state? I have deliberately written them with the preservation of government firepower superiority in mind.

Apparently, many dictatorships and oligarchies throughout history have allowed civilian gun ownership, including Nazi Germany and Ba'athist Iraq, not to mention today's Saudi Arabia

The Tulean State regulates firearms by 3 categories:

Category A:

Category A firearms are subject to registration and can be obtained by any autonomous person with a hunting certificate and a clean criminal record.
There is a maximum limit of 6 Category A firearms allowed per household however and they must be stored in a fashion that makes them inaccessible to prohibited persons.

All shotguns, apart from those that:

1) Hold more than 3 shells, including any shells that fit in the chamber(s).
2) Can be easily modified to hold more than 3 shells.
3) Have a fully-automatic firing capability or can be easily modified to have that capability.
4) Have a barrel shorter than 450 mm.

All rifles, apart from those that:

1) Are semi-automatic or pump-activated AND hold more than 3 centerfire rounds, including any rounds that fit in the chamber(s).
2) Are manually operated and hold more than 10 centerfire rounds.
3) Have a fully-automatic firing capability or can be easily modified to have that capability.
4) Have a barrel shorter than 450 mm.
5) Are chambered in any centerfire cartridge used by the Government.

Category B:

Category B firearms are subject to registration and can only be owned by government-approved gun clubs, though autonomous individuals with clean criminal records may rent firearms and even bring them abroad for competitions, provided that they have been registered members of said shooting clubs for 2 years and have participated in 6 competitions locally.

All firearms apart from those that:

1) Have a fully-automatic firing capability or can be easily modified to have that capability.
2) Have a barrel shorter than 100 mm.
3) Are chambered in any centerfire cartridge used by the government.
4) Are chambered in any centerfire cartridge with a cartridge case shorter than 19 mm.

Category C:

Any firearm not permitted by the first two categories. These are prohibited for civilians to own unless said firearms have been permanently deactivated.


The household gun ownership rate in the State of Tule is 31 percent, as hunting is popular.

"preserving government firepower superiority" is a crappy argument for modern governments whether RL or fictional. Even assuming you legalized all weapons to include stuff like tanks etc it would be impossible for the civilian populace to overpower the military because of financial, training, logistical, organizational, etc. limitations. As far as conventional weapons are concerned, at least.

From a more honest viewpoint you're just making things easier for yourself.

[Crookfur]

what should i call my police's internal security branch? they're the ones supposed to tackle abuse, corruption, information leaks, etc. how does "internal control and counterintelligence" sound?

You should call them The Police La Policia and have them drive La Ferraris because thats a wonderfully crap joke and all infernal affairs dept's should be used to poke fun at italian supercar makers.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

what should i call my police's internal security branch? they're the ones supposed to tackle abuse, corruption, information leaks, etc. how does "internal control and counterintelligence" sound?

You should call them The Police La Policia and have them drive La Ferraris because thats a wonderfully crap joke and all infernal affairs dept's should be used to poke fun at italian supercar makers.

lolwut

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

NS, do you allow protected identity for your cops in certain situations? E.g. when serving a high risk warrant etc. Many countries have this, and it essentially allows the cops to wear face masks, not display their names, and not have to identify themselves, or some combination of the above.

I approve of this personally.

[Kouralia]

1) Kouralia has a Professional Standards division to each Constabulary/Watch. The process of dealing with complaints goes like thus:

• Complaint issued my MoP/fellow officer.
• Initial Rebuttal - Officer(s) in question report to +2 (usually a (Vice) Commissioner or (Deputy) Inspector), and if complaint is unsubstantiated, then it usually ends here. For example, if a proud father complains that his son must have been framed because there's no way he would drink drive and then attack an arresting officer, then withdraws his complaint when a Commissioner sits him down for a chat with the Arresting Watchman and shows him the dash-cam footage of the incident, that ends here.
• Professional Standards - If the Complaint is substantiated/cannot be sufficiently rebutted by the Officer in question, and either action must be taken or an investigation must be launched, then the Professional Standards division becomes involved. An example of something at this stage might be someone being accused of removing or planting drugs from a suspect's residence during a raid.
• The Office of Royal Justice - If the impartiality of PS cannot be guaranteed, the case is about a serious enough crime to merit a full criminal investigation and trial in a court of law rather than a mere internal investigation and internal judgement followed by potential criminal proceedings (e.g. murder of a prisoner), the appointed judge feels that insufficient progress/competency has been displayed, the case is high profile enough or it involves the Intelligence and Security Agency, then it goes to the Office of Royal Justice which conducts the investigation. The ORJ is somewhat analogous to the FBI in that it also conducts serious nation-wide criminal investigations.

Following this, the officer in question will usually either be acquitted or may face internal disciplinary actions or may face criminal proceedings if the Office of Royal Justice's Prosecutors feel that it should be taken to court.

2) Kouralian Law Enforcement goes like so:

• City/Town/Village Watch / Constabulary - local, or geographic-based police organisation. This is the bread and butter law enforcement organisation, and the one that most of the public will interact with on a daily basis. They are typically unarmed, and their jobs include public order, neighbourhood policing, criminal investigation, detaining prisoners temporarily, firearms policing etc.
• Treasury Guard - The Treasury Guard is a semi-paramilitary organisation whose job is to investigate fraud and counterfeiting, smuggling and piracy, and immigrations matters. They function in this regard in a manner similar to both border control and the Coast Guard, and operate naval-style vessels up to the size of cutter/frigate, helicopters, and are routinely armed with side-arms (or more, if on anti-piracy/smuggling duties).
• Trust Rangers - The National Trust Rangers' Service acts as a blend between the policing for national parks and other elements of Kouralia's natural history, and also for policing culturally important objects or properties. They conduct investigations into art theft or forgery, vandalism or theft from national trust properties or other properties/objects deemed to be culturally significant and to be protected by law, illegal fishing/logging/hunting/other activities, and general patrolling of national parks for public safety purposes (e.g. investigating possible drug crops, or finding lost hikers, or even hunting down and eliminating a specifically dangerous predator). Trust Rangers vary, but those on duty at art galleries or other similar locations are typically unarmed. Those patrolling parks and forests normally are armed with a revolver, and always carry a .303 hunting rifle in their vehicles.
• Intelligence and Security Agency - The ISA has three parts. The Office of Foreign Interest conducts espionage abroad and counter-espionage in Kouralia. The Office of Irregular Activities conducts investigations into and maintains records of unnatural phenomena such as magic, and provides specialist backup for local policing if necessary (e.g. providing a specialist team of trained anti-mage agents to deal with an active-shooter situation where the perpetrator is suspected to be magically gifted). The Office of Royal Justice conducts major criminal investigations or oversees other organisations' investigations, and it also includes (though not sworn as agents) all public prosecutors and public defenders and judges under its wings. Most ISA agents are equipped with a side-arm.
• Royal Gaolers and Wardens Constabulary (previously The Penitentiary Administration) - The Gaolers Constabulary is responsible for manning all prisons and other similar facilities, in addition to guarding prisoners from the moment of their being found guilty through to the moment of their release, including all motor, maritime or airborne transport. Officers are normally armed with side-arms when travelling, though shotguns/baton guns are more common on-site.

3) Yes. In cases where there is reason to suspect that the Officers in question may be subject to reprisals, they may remove their markings and obscure their identities. Beyond that it is common (e.g. public order situations, SFOs etc.) for identities to be obscured, for example by a flame-retardant balaclava.

[Ainin]

I'm curious, does arming the police lead to any community relations problems?

I'm thinking about whether I should arm regular patrol officers of the Aininian National Police.

[Spirit of Hope]

I'm curious, does arming the police lead to any community relations problems?

I'm thinking about whether I should arm regular patrol officers of the Aininian National Police.

I wouldn't say it leaves to community relations problems. It leads to cops having more access to lethal force, which means you are more likely to have accidental shootings. Those lead to significant community relations problems.

There are essentially 2 schools of thought in this:
1) Cops are going to be facing criminals, some of whom may be armed, and in some circumstances will not be able to wait for back up. Thus cops should have guns for when everything goes bad.

2) Cops almost never use their guns, in fact they almost never even have to draw them. Baring some weird circumstances any call that needs an armed response can be sent specially trained and armed officers without needing to resort to regular officers. Thus cops don't need guns, and giving them guns just leads to problems.

Neither group is right, you just have to decide how much you trust your cops and figure in the danger of your society. The UK doesn't arm cops and gets along fairly well, but they have a lower murder rate and more restrictive gun laws. The US does arm cops, and has a higher murder rate and gun ownership, but also has a history of cops using their guns when they shouldn't

[The Macabees]

There's also the group of people who think that police units armed with what seem like extraordinarily heavy weapons (including APCs) are there more to oppress than they are to fight crime.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I'm curious, does arming the police lead to any community relations problems?

I'm thinking about whether I should arm regular patrol officers of the Aininian National Police.

if you have a properly educated population and competent officers, no.

the us is the opposite of this, esp. regarding public knowledge (e.g. APCs called tanks, AR called assault rifles etc.) but also to a degree with police brutality.

[The Akasha Colony]

I'm curious, does arming the police lead to any community relations problems?

I'm thinking about whether I should arm regular patrol officers of the Aininian National Police.

It depends more on how the police view themselves in relation to the community. The common contrast is between British police and American police, but the Japanese also authorize their officers to carry firearms and don't have the "problems" that US police do. Ironically, while patrol officers may be armed in Japan, riot police are specifically not armed. It probably helps that the Japanese themselves are much more restrained in their protesting.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

There's also the group of people who think that police units armed with what seem like extraordinarily heavy weapons (including APCs) are there more to oppress than they are to fight crime.

With recent free giveaway MRAPs from the army to various police agencies and the like a very, very overlooked argument (to the power of over 9000) is cost. Regardless of how overpowered (overall, not specifically referring to horsepower) and unnecessary such a vehicle may be for civilian use the fact still stands that it is the best possible deal (they only have to pay for delivery and, I think, maintenance, fuel) . Even an economical and not-so-overpowered version the criticism-crowd would deem "appropriate" would still run AT LEAST in the high tens of thousands, optimistically. So, there is no doubt whatsoever that as far as capital costs are concerned the MRAPs win hands-down.

I highly doubt that for the expected in-service time the MRAPs could be outclassed because of costlier maintenance and fuel, and I rationally suspect that this may be the case only with a ridiculous and unrealistic timespan

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

I'm curious, does arming the police lead to any community relations problems?

I'm thinking about whether I should arm regular patrol officers of the Aininian National Police.

It depends more on how the police view themselves in relation to the community. The common contrast is between British police and American police, but the Japanese also authorize their officers to carry firearms and don't have the "problems" that US police do. Ironically, while patrol officers may be armed in Japan, riot police are specifically not armed. It probably helps that the Japanese themselves are much more restrained in their protesting.

Idk what's your point. Where do you see armed (as in, with lethal firearms) riot police lol? DPRK excluded obviously.

[The Macabees]

With recent free giveaway MRAPs from the army to various police agencies and the like a very, very overlooked argument (to the power of over 9000) is cost. Regardless of how overpowered (overall, not specifically referring to horsepower) and unnecessary such a vehicle may be for civilian use the fact still stands that it is the best possible deal (they only have to pay for delivery and, I think, maintenance, fuel) . Even an economical and not-so-overpowered version the criticism-crowd would deem "appropriate" would still run AT LEAST in the high tens of thousands, optimistically. So, there is no doubt whatsoever that as far as capital costs are concerned the MRAPs win hands-down.

I highly doubt that for the expected in-service time the MRAPs could be outclassed because of costlier maintenance and fuel, and I rationally suspect that this may be the case only with a ridiculous and unrealistic timespan

You're most likely right; but, the point still stands that it can lead to "community relations problems."

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

With recent free giveaway MRAPs from the army to various police agencies and the like a very, very overlooked argument (to the power of over 9000) is cost. Regardless of how overpowered (overall, not specifically referring to horsepower) and unnecessary such a vehicle may be for civilian use the fact still stands that it is the best possible deal (they only have to pay for delivery and, I think, maintenance, fuel) . Even an economical and not-so-overpowered version the criticism-crowd would deem "appropriate" would still run AT LEAST in the high tens of thousands, optimistically. So, there is no doubt whatsoever that as far as capital costs are concerned the MRAPs win hands-down.

I highly doubt that for the expected in-service time the MRAPs could be outclassed because of costlier maintenance and fuel, and I rationally suspect that this may be the case only with a ridiculous and unrealistic timespan

You're most likely right; but, the point still stands that it can lead to "community relations problems."

And these should be handled by proper education and information, not making the wrong choices to be politically correct.

[The Akasha Colony]

It depends more on how the police view themselves in relation to the community. The common contrast is between British police and American police, but the Japanese also authorize their officers to carry firearms and don't have the "problems" that US police do. Ironically, while patrol officers may be armed in Japan, riot police are specifically not armed. It probably helps that the Japanese themselves are much more restrained in their protesting.

Idk what's your point. Where do you see armed (as in, with lethal firearms) riot police lol? DPRK excluded obviously.

I dunno, maybe Ferguson?



And perhaps Switzerland. And France.

I don't know about you, but I'm guessing those aren't airsoft guns. That aside, the Japanese riot police don't even carry sidearms, with or without non-lethal ammunition.

[The Macabees]

Oftentimes those people are already very educated, and they'll respond to you by claiming that you're making a false dichotomy.

[The High Tatras]

What is the right time in history to establish a standing civilian police force? In my 17th century timeline, militia/ national guard units are used for law enforcement in their villages and towns. I am considering adding something akin to America's "federal marshals" to administer the law in wilderness areas.

[Crookfur]

I'm curious, does arming the police lead to any community relations problems?

I'm thinking about whether I should arm regular patrol officers of the Aininian National Police.

as others have mentioend it would depend on your national character and how the police and the wider populance interact.

Recently there has been a big political hoohaa in scotland over the fact that armed response teams are now regularly being used for general police duties particulalry in more rurual areas.

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Idk what's your point. Where do you see armed (as in, with lethal firearms) riot police lol? DPRK excluded obviously.

I dunno, maybe Ferguson?



And perhaps Switzerland. And France.

I don't know about you, but I'm guessing those aren't airsoft guns. That aside, the Japanese riot police don't even carry sidearms, with or without non-lethal ammunition.

lethal firearms

Again, I don't know what point you think you're making here. Does police in Japan not use tear gas?

[DnalweN acilbupeR]

Oftentimes those people are already very educated,

no, just no. even a basically educated person could tell an apc from a tank and full from semi auto. they can't, or don't want to.

and they'll respond to you by claiming that you're making a false dichotomy.

i don't quite get you here, big words sometimes make my head hurt. i'm just a pleb after all.

[Spirit of Hope]

What is the right time in history to establish a standing civilian police force? In my 17th century timeline, militia/ national guard units are used for law enforcement in their villages and towns. I am considering adding something akin to America's "federal marshals" to administer the law in wilderness areas.

Depends on what you want for the police to be doing. You could easily have a federal police force that dates in some form back to the 1200s (or farther) if they draw from a tradition of guarding kings land, guarding pilgrims, or any number of things.

The first semi-modern police force was Paris in the 1660's I think. This didn't really take off until the late 1700s early 1800s though.