Worldbuilding Realism Consultation Thread Mk. 4

[Danternoust]

Religion is more likely to be a threat to state power structures than not in the modern age, otherwise they would be endorsed much more heavily than otherwise.

In fact the KKK bombed churches. Churches have always been a center of organizing activity, with tolerance for a wide variety of topics to be discussed afterward, unlike other settings.

[Gallia-]

Possibly true but Great Nortend seems like the type who thinks square dances are the devil and finds oppressively boring singing of the Psalms to be a good Saturday evening.

So I guess the average zealous Protestant idk.

And I praise Jove daily for never letting the desert religions of Abrahamism write Ostmarkian history.

To be fair Evangelical churches are probably too lively for Great Nortend. He would probably recoil at the clapping, singing, hooting, and hollering that takes place at my cousins' church. It's quite lively but I don't like loud noises or large groups of people, so it's not really for me.

Dumbla just has a variety of local cults and shrines ultimately descended from its pagan/heathen past since its Christianization was a bit of a wet noodle.

There's probably Sami who dress like Heilung and play bone bongos or something made from raindeers in the past year, while singing in old Saami, that do parades through parts of Galla's capital for various ultimately pagan festivals.

There are boring "Christian" schools that you can send your kid to if you don't want to actually parent that emphasize Catharism, which in Dumblaverse is less IRL Cathar and more like a bizarre hybrid of Chinese Buddhism and elements of Xtianity because Galla has been in relatively sustained contact with Chinese missionaries since the 700s or so. I guess the result was a Pagan-buddhist sect invented a limp dick form of Christianity with the help of a few lunatic Viking kangz who read the Buhbul and tried to "correct" it Marcion style. Perhaps the literal Marcion fled to the North after being ousted by the early Church fathers who was received moderately well by few pagans or sth.

Catholics tried to correct this with a couple 1200's Crusades that ended up breaking on the shores of Galla after being dispersed by fire ships and a large naval fleet, and then by a big storm that is totally not Astolfo the legendary Paladin blowing his big horn (toot) and frightening the water itself enough to part the seas and swallow the Catholic fleet whole. End of attempts to Christianize the North mostly due to capital costs of losing two massive Crusader fleets in less than 60 years, and the squabbling of the bishops in who was going to pay for the next fleet. Since the Pope never got so big for his britches I guess the Great Schism doesn't really happen at least. But I digress.

For most people it's literally just a box you check on a census form. You are "Christian (Cathar)" or whatever. But you still believe in ghosts, demons, forest spirits, trolls, and whatnot. Because the local Shinto Cathar priest told you about how he once spent a few nights in a haunted estate and the doors were closing by themselves and the fire in the fireplace kept going out. And you trust him because he's a good guy and does a lot of volunteer work for the local suburb/neighborhood/town by running a food pantry/habitat for humanity/kayaking club.

Catholics hate them a lot for obvious reasons.

[Great Nortend]

This has been very interesting to read.

Relaxed and entertaining would in my experience be gospel hall/evangelical/ salvation army "happy clappy" service that are primarily a sing along rather than the more dour Presbyterian hymn/preaching sandwich.

Yes, I prefer offices with chanted psalms, although not Protestant-style “hymn sandwich” offices. More like Anglican evensong, with masses like a Latin mass albeit in English. There would be only preaching ~15 minutes at high masses; none at morning and evening prayer except for readings at the former from published sermons by Augustine or Bede or Pope Gregory or whatever.

Possibly true but Great Nortend seems like the type who thinks square dances are the devil and finds oppressively boring singing of the Psalms to be a good Saturday evening.

So I guess the average zealous Protestant idk.

Apparently there was liturgical dance in the mediaeval period, but in GN, the only “dancing” would be in the form of processions and bowing and the like. However, I like the idea of square dances. Just not in churches. There is a place for everything good.

As an aside, do Protestants, apart from Anglicans, sing chants or use incense or bow? I will have to investigate.

Religion is more likely to be a threat to state power structures than not in the modern age, otherwise they would be endorsed much more heavily than otherwise.

In fact the KKK bombed churches. Churches have always been a center of organizing activity, with tolerance for a wide variety of topics to be discussed afterward, unlike other settings.

Then the state hasn't taken advantage of the church. Make all appointments subject to political examination for conformity, and then you have a direct channel to the people in every community. Interpret the bible in a way conducive to the state, teach it to children, preach to the people &c.

Relaxed and entertaining would in my experience be gospel hall/evangelical/ salvation army "happy clappy" service that are primarily a sing along rather than the more dour Presbyterian hymn/preaching sandwich.

Entertaining isn't the correct word. However, state-sponsored churches often offer little to the individual worshipper since they're mainly concerned with legitimizing power structures.

Mainline Christianity descended from state churches has lost out to Evangelism because Evangelical churches emphasize a personal spiritual experience over ritual.

Everyone likes ritual surely? I can't understand people who prefer ex tempore prayers and unstructured liturgies in casual language. How do people have a spiritual “relationship” with God acting as if he is their next-door neighbour, colleague or schoolmate? Bizarre to me. Luckily as master and sovereign of GN, I will ensure no true Nortan would think like this. : )

[Gallia-]

TFW Paradox adds the cultural genocide button to EU5.

e: The virgin "I play the pipe organ" vs the chad "My name's Aivvit Akselsson and I'm here to teach you how to make a bone bongo from a raindeer corpse so you can too commune with the local forest spirits in your own backyard".

Apparently there was liturgical dance in the mediaeval period, but in GN, the only “dancing” would be in the form of processions and bowing and the like. However, I like the idea of square dances. Just not in churches. There is a place for everything good.

Dancing in church is probably a bit too American anyway.

How do people have a spiritual “relationship” with God acting as if he is their next-door neighbour, colleague or schoolmate?

Also even I'm not this big of a sub lmao.

Probably has something to do with the general decline of the master-slave relationship that typified European class structures in favor of a more egalitarian model based on American society.

[Triplebaconation]

death to the troublesome trucks

[Great Nortend]

What's a sub?

[Gallia-]

death to the troublesome trucks

Catapult all cars into the Sun.

[Great Nortend]

Wait do Americans actually dance in churches? I thought only Africans did that.

[Gallia-]

You clearly have never been to a Pentecostal church, which might be the strongest and most powerful form of Christianity since it is slowly rendering old fashioned Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Anglicanism extinct.

e: Anyway Pentecostalism is popular in West and Southern Africa somewhat AIUI, so that probably explains it. The hootin' and hollerin' is either Midwestern United States (and all the good ol'e boys that entails) or actual Congo delta. Congolese Africans gave us fried okra so we might as well give them dancing in church and speaking in tongues IDK seems pretty equitable.

[Triplebaconation]

Dumbla just has a variety of local cults and shrines ultimately descended from its pagan/heathen past since its Christianization was a bit of a wet noodle.

Yes, mine is very similar except of course being a total AU there's no trace of Christianity.

There's an established pantheonic religion that nobody really believes in but is very important to society. Priests observe rituals for the sake of the community, sacralize rites of passage, etc, etc. It doesn't really have any inherent ethical teachings but priests are trained in moral philosophy so you might go to one for advice. The Temple courts also "retain civil jurisdiction over blasphemy, desecration, and malison* cases (both now very rare), certain defamation claims involving accusations of godlessness, granting of marriage licenses, divorce, proving of wills, exhumation, and appointment and removal of notaries public" according to this document I found.

Very few people actually believe there are gods in medieval armor looking after them but they still put out little cakes or a libation to the spirits of the dead because it's been done for thousands of years. All very transactional - the gods care more about the form than belief. People inclined to religiosity might join mysteries whose lore may diverge wildly from the official mythos, but a lot of these have been watered down over the centuries into something like the Shriners.

Also there's an old indigenous religion that's the source of rustic folklore like fairy trees. Reconstructed versions (often combined with foreign religions) are popular with granola types who go around doing stuff like this: (censored for benefit of Nort)

[Great Nortend]

Very droll.

[Gallia-]

Dumbla just has a variety of local cults and shrines ultimately descended from its pagan/heathen past since its Christianization was a bit of a wet noodle.

Yes, mine is very similar except of course being a total AU there's no trace of Christianity.

There's an established pantheonic religion that nobody really believes in but is very important to society. Priests observe rituals for the sake of the community, sacralize rites of passage, etc, etc. It doesn't really have any inherent ethical teachings but priests are trained in moral philosophy so you might go to one for advice. The Temple courts also "retain civil jurisdiction over blasphemy, desecration, and malison* cases (both now very rare), certain defamation claims involving accusations of godlessness, granting of marriage licenses, divorce, proving of wills, exhumation, and appointment and removal of notaries public" according to this document I found.

Very few people actually believe there are gods in medieval armor looking after them but they still put out little cakes or a libation to the spirits of the dead because it's been done for thousands of years. All very transactional - the gods care more about the form than belief. People inclined to religiosity might join mysteries whose lore may diverge wildly from the official mythos, but a lot of these have been watered down over the centuries into something like the Shriners.

Also there's an old indigenous religion that's the source of rustic folklore like fairy trees. Reconstructed versions (often combined with foreign religions) are popular with granola types who go around doing stuff like this: (censored for benefit of Nort)

Pretty based.

I thought the censoring was in runes also at first lmao I had to squint.

Needs more bone drums tho imo. Maybe auroch bones or sth for that real Indo-European Proto-Lynerian feel.

[Triplebaconation]

It would probably just be a goat or deerskin frame drum.

[Austrasien]

You clearly have never been to a Pentecostal church, which might be the strongest and most powerful form of Christianity since it is slowly rendering old fashioned Catholicism, Lutheranism, and Anglicanism extinct.

It is the most lindy form of Christianity.

[Gallia-]

lit

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Is this a likely chart of most and least likely government groups to report corruption? (Sharifistan is mostly located in North-East Turkey)

most likely/1.judges
2.senior civil servants
3.Gendarmerie officers
4.primary school teachers
5.military officers (Air Cavalry, Army and Space Cavalry), doctors
6. state mosque employees,
7. government lawyers, senior prison officers
8.enlisted soldiers, lower-ranking prison officers
9.police officers (Inspector and above),secondary school teachers
10. Junior civil servants
11.police officers (sergeant and below)

[Great Nortend]

I can't imagine judges being very likely to report corruption.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

I can't imagine judges being very likely to report corruption.

Why?

[Gallia-]

Because they benefit from it, obviously.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Because they benefit from it, obviously.

Judges would be less likely to be corrupt than most of the other jobs mentioned. Judges in Sharifistan are well paid Islamic scholars who usually come from respected, old-money families. They’d have more to loose than to get from corruption in general and are raised on the idea that it’s unacceptable. This compares favourably to the attitudes towards “clean graft” and “loyalty” in Sharifistani cop culture, especially amongst the lower ranks and the street culture some army enlistees were raised in.

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Because they benefit from it, obviously.

Judges would be less likely to be corrupt than most of the other jobs mentioned. Judges in Sharifistan are well paid Islamic scholars who usually come from respected, old-money families. They’d have more to loose than to get from corruption in general and are raised on the idea that it’s unacceptable. This compares favourably to the attitudes towards “clean graft” and “loyalty” in Sharifistani cop culture, especially amongst the lower ranks and the street culture some army enlistees were raised in.

Besides the fact that judges must declare all other economic interests meaning any major bribe would be detectable and so would be punished and the assets seized.

[Gallia-]

How to be a corrupt judge:

1) Receive request from an extraction firm to develop an oil pipeline and an expensive terminal, which is considered somewhat unnecessary since the pipeline can connect to a terminal further afield and be utilized as a tank farm.
2) Be paid a lot of money by the extraction firm and construction contractors to approve the terminal's construction.
3) Approve the terminal construction permit because it will (genuinely) produce about 3,000 more local community jobs in your borough than if it were just a pipeline to a storage area. It will also require about 12,800-24,000 construction laborers to build according to the timeline. It will cost taxpayers between 8x to 15x more money to build than a simple pipeline extension to a tank farm.
4) Literally do not give a fuck because you are being paid a fat bribe and the people 200 miles down the coast can suck it because you're not their judge.
5) In 12-15 years time when the mega terminal is built and operational you have successfully put the old terminal out of business, produced a relatively high crime area of much lower population density, ruined the lives of about 7,000 people in a small town, and you're on your way to retirement without ever being discovered because you reported the bribe as a private business earning on your tax forms, paid a modest tax, and the local regional government supports the new terminal. None of this bothers you because you don't live in that community, you don't care about them, and they don't affect your daily life outside of reading about how some dumb old terminal facility was shut down in favor of a brand new one built by Mixxon-Oile and 22,200 temporary foreign workers from Bangladesh, of which a meager 660 were killed during the construction period of about 7 years.

Congratulations, you are now part of the international extraction industry racket. Enjoy enriching the lives of people near to you and ruining the lives of those far away.

[Austrasien]

tbf people who benefit from corruption are more likely to report it. Among certain eusocial wasps for example (not many animals have anything analogous to crimes hence the slightly odd example) the main crime is a female other than the queen laying fertilized eggs because each colony only permits one queen (unlike bees or ants they have not reached the stage of eusociality where all workers are infertile). Among the workers (all female if you aren't up to speed on Hymenoptera) those most pro-active about enforcing the one-hive-one-queen law are... the workers who have also mated with drones and laid illegal eggs.

In many species, including the Eurasian tree wasp, such unscrupulousness is held in check by a kind of policing behaviour. Wasps caught engaging in illicit reproduction are attacked. In tree wasps, rather intriguingly, the attack behaviour is performed exclusively by wasps who are themselves cheats. They are bigger and tougher than average, which comes in handy both in their police work and their criminal activities. In other species, however, the enforcers do not seem guilty of the same hypocrisy. Ordinary honeybee workers detect and devour more than 99 per cent of the eggs laid by their sisters. Among several species of ants, common workers will attack individuals whose ovaries indicate they might be reproducing, biting their limbs to the point where half of them die.

Baby's first sociological insight is typically that self-righteous people tend to be hypocrites. This is true. The nature of defection is that you benefit most when you are the only one doing it. If you are a corrupt judge it makes sense to vigorously prosecute corrupt cops because they are directly competing with you, if someone can bribe a cop to get out of a citation they never even see a judge (you) so never need to bribe one. When everyone is engaging in corrupt behaviour the payoff becomes trivial. And since people tend to assume behaviour is self-consistent absent evidence otherwise a righteous reputation diverts suspicion.

Verily, when the concentration of self-righteous hypocrites becomes high enough it becomes profitable for righteousness to exist. That societies where most people are not engaged in corrupt behaviour exist at all is likely because they passed through a stage in the possible distant past when a high enough concentration of self-righteous hypocrites existed that they began to inhibit each-other, permitting genuinely honest people to break out the prisoner's dilemma at last.

In his final book, Power and Prosperity (2000), Olson distinguished between the economic effects of different types of government, in particular, tyranny, anarchy, and democracy. Olson argued that under anarchy, a "roving bandit" only has the incentive to steal and destroy, whilst a "stationary bandit"—a tyrant—has an incentive to encourage some degree of economic success as he expects to remain in power long enough to benefit from that success. A stationary bandit thereby begins to take on the governmental function of protecting citizens and their property against roving bandits. In the move from roving to stationary bandits, Olson sees the seeds of civilization, paving the way, eventually for democracy, which by giving power to those who align with the wishes of the population, improves incentives for good government.[5] Olson's work on the roving vs. stationary bandits is influential in analysis of the political and economic order structured in warlord states and societies.

[Gallia-]

Don't worry we're bringing that back.

[Kedri]

What are some tips for creating political parties?

The prevailing political philosophy in Kedri is minarchism or classical liberalism, so there's most definitely be a party for that. The rival party is probably gonna be a center left but socially conservative party, like Christian democracy.

I expect their to be at least two other parties: One is a socialist or progressive party, while the other is more like the GOP (for those that disagree with the two main parties on social issues.)